Is it time for the death penalty?

[mxfun]

Look at Ian Brady for instance, the ripper (can't remember his name) why are they still alive.

I remember years and years ago, for someone to be shot in the street was unheard of, nowadays it's virtually everyday now, it's almost as if people accept it. All the do gooders in this world are making it worse.

Life for a life. What is there to discuss!

We need a deterrent now people. Prison is on longer a threat it's a home from home, no bills 3 meals a day sky tv I mean com on for heavens sake.... It's a joke!!!!

 

[mxfun]

Except the relations of the murderer, of course. Then it's entirely justified that they should suffer the same loss in the name of vengeance.

I'm sorry for your experience, I really am, but killing them is not the solution.

Explain why it isn't the solution

, make me understand that when someone blatantly kills someone else... why they shouldn't face the death penalty !!!!!

 

[boyfalldown]

Brady is often spoken about as an example in these threads. A few facts.

He killed from 1963 to 1965

The last death penalty carried out in the uk was 1964.

It didn't deter him and the last person sentenced to death in the uk was sentenced some six weeks after his arrest. He was arrested while the death penalty was available. Although it wasn't avalaible at his trial. I would imagine he figured large in the abolishment debate when the death penalty was abolished 4 years after his crimes.

 

[boyfalldown]

How many of you have had someone close to you murdered. Not many I doubt. I have, I would bring it back tomorrow. The suffering we went through especially my mum I would not wish on anyone.

I am truly sorry to hear this.

I mean no disrespect by saying this but had you read the thread you would of read that there are several posters here have had both friends and family murdered. Some of those support the death penalty, some of those are against it.

 

[joescrivens]

I am truly sorry to hear this.

I mean no disrespect by saying this but had you read the thread you would of read that there are several posters here have had both friends and family murdered. Some of those support the death penalty, some of those are against it.

i think it's just you out of the people who have had f&f murdered who doesn't support it hugh, the rest seem to want it. :shrug:

 

[boyfalldown]

i think it's just you out of the people who have had f&f murdered who doesn't support it hugh, the rest seem to want it. :shrug:

Laudrup seems fairly against it too

 

[DavidMartin]

I am truly sorry to hear this.

I mean no disrespect by saying this but had you read the thread you would of read that there are several posters here have had both friends and family murdered. Some of those support the death penalty, some of those are against it.

I sympathise with all of them, admittedly I haven't read every page. This debate will go on for years and years. Time eases the pain of those who have lost friends and family but there are some who it doesn't. 30 years ago a taxi driver was stabbed to death by someone I knew. That person was in prison for 20 years. As soon as he was released a couple of family members were hell bent on killing him in revenge. Everywhere he went someone would turn up looking for him. Some would say he had served his sentence, others thought different.
What about Charles Bronson never killed anyone came close but never killed. He will never be released. Why should a murderer be allowed his freedom. Either the death penalty or life to mean life.
If not the death penalty what other deterant is there ? The justice system at the moment doesn't have one.
As said even with it some will still kill. Chopping the hands off thieves doesn't put people off stealing in other countries.

 

[boyfalldown]

I agree life should mean life. But it's been shown so many times (look at the US, or Ian Brady for examples) that capital punishment doesn't deter either.

You can undo a life sentence but not a capital one should you be wrong in your conviction. It has happened (enough to be more then a small percent)

 

[srichards]

Prison is something that the non criminal classes fear. The criminal classes don't. They seem to thrive within it.

What percentage of murders go unsolved? How has that changed over the years?

 

[DavidMartin]

I agree life should mean life. But it's been shown so many times (look at the US, or Ian Brady for examples) that capital punishment doesn't deter either.

You can undo a life sentence but not a capital one should you be wrong in your conviction. It has happened (enough to be more then a small percent)

I agree with you. But you can argue with the forensic technology these days there should be no excuse for a wrong conviction.

 

[big soft moose]

Laudrup seems fairly against it too

I wasnt aware that he'd had F&F murdered

 

[boyfalldown]

True, but I'm also going to bet those 30/40 year old convictions shown now to be miscarriages were belived to be very sound. Who knows what the next 40 years will bring?

 

[boyfalldown]

I wasnt aware that he'd had F&F murdered

He talks about his uncle earlier in the thread. I can't give a post # cause on my phone and can't see them

 

[big soft moose]

You can undo a life sentence

no you can't - if you wrongly convict someone of rape and murder when they are twenty and then discover they are innocent when they are fifty two , you can't give them the 32 years they've spent either in solitary or being abused by fellow prisoners back - nor can you give them the potential that their life had age 20.

Bottom line convictions have to be safe regardless of whether you have CP - but if they are safe theres no reason not to have it IMO

 

[boyfalldown]

no you can't - if you wrongly convict someone of rape and murder when they are twenty and then discover they are innocent when they are fifty two , you can't give them the 32 years they've spent either in solitary or being abused by fellow prisoners back - nor can you give them the potential that their life had age 20.

Bottom line convictions have to be safe regardless of whether you have CP - but if they are safe theres no reason not to have it IMO

very true, but a number of Capital Punishment advocates in this thread have stated an amount of 'collateral damage' would be OK.

From a purely practical viewpoint no system will ever be a 100% perfect and I'd rather a system that could let me walk away (even if very damaged) after a miscarriage of justice, rather then one that said 'very sorry we hung you 30 years ago'. Wouldn't you?

Looking at the US again, you can see that of the people sentenced to death, the majority can't afford proper defences, tend to have very low IQs and be black. Where the same crimes are committed by people who can afford proper defences, have normal IQs and theres no race element the chances of a death sentence being given are much lower for the same crime.

There's also evidence of some political element. Number of sentences carried out increases in right wing states during election years.

At a glance that doesn't look entirely safe, does it?

 

[pepi1967]

No collateral damage is ok and never will be. If you hang someone for murder the victim and her family has justice for the loss of a loved one. A murder has been sentenced.

Then some years down the line you find that the person you hung was innocent. What justice does THAT family get for the murder of THEIR loved one? who is going to pay for that murder???

Or is that not important????

 

[Deleted member 49549]

There's also evidence of some political element. Number of sentences carried out increases in right wing states during election years.

Not only right wing states - Clinton flew back to Arkansas during his 1992 presidential campaign to oversee an execution that would 'harden' his image. The prisoner (Ricky Ray Rector) was brain damaged - so much so that he decided to keep the dessert from his last meal for after the execution...

 

[DemiLion]

Look at Ian Brady for instance, the ripper (can't remember his name) why are they still alive.

I remember years and years ago, for someone to be shot in the street was unheard of, nowadays it's virtually everyday now, it's almost as if people accept it. All the do gooders in this world are making it worse.

Life for a life. What is there to discuss!

We need a deterrent now people. Prison is on longer a threat it's a home from home, no bills 3 meals a day sky tv I mean com on for heavens sake.... It's a joke!!!!.

If that's truly the case, why have Huntley and Shipman attempted suicide at least twice each and why has Brady been trying to die for the last 12 years by being on hunger strike?

 

[cambsno]

No system will be foolproof, and sure, the death penalty will not stop murder but I bet that if it was in murder rates would decrease. We all know people speed in cars, if they bought in an extreme penalty like go above 80 and you will serve 10 years in jail guess what, very few people would speed. The death penalty would stop some murders. These days its easy to use forensic evidence to convict safely. Mistakes may happen, but if say in the next 30 years 10 innocent people die that would be a shame, but if the bigger picture means 2000 murders would not have taken place then surely that is a price worth paying?

People would not clamour for the death penalty if murderers actually served proper sentences like 30 years minimum and had no tv, and luxuries. Put them in an American style jail with no rights. Stop spending more on their meals than old people and school kids get. Why should they get free dental care when I have to pay for it?

 

[ding76uk]

No system will be foolproof, and sure, the death penalty will not stop murder but I bet that if it was in murder rates would decrease.

evidence points to the contrary. Educating people, not allowing people to live in poverty and being dragged into situations at a young age is truly the best way to reduce crime.

 

[ding76uk]

30 years 10 innocent people die that would be a shame, but if the bigger picture means 2000 murders would not have taken place then surely that is a price worth paying?

Technically you are murdering 10 people in that scenario. They have been killed for no reason by someone who premeditated it.

 

[SarahLee]

I want to live in a country where the justice system . . .

> makes people accept the consequences of their actions and the punishment is proportionate to the crime (whatever that crime is)

> keeps those who are a danger to society safely away from it until such time as we can be sure that they're not likely to re-offend. Either because they've reached the end of their lives or they've been successfully rehabilitated.

I'm not sure that such a thing exists, but what I don't want is to live in a country where the justice system is about vengeance . . . and that's what the death penalty is IMO.

Yes, I'm human and if one of my family or friends were a victim, I'd want to see the culprit pulled apart limb by limb. It doesn't make it right though, and that's why sentences should be decided impartially and not by those directly involved.

 

[srichards]

From: http://www.ncadp.org/index.cfm?content=25


Studies in Oklahoma and California failed to find that capital punishment had a deterrent effect on violent crime and, in fact, found a significant increase in stranger killings and homicide rates after the death penalty had been reinstated. (William Bailey, “Deterrence, Brutalization, and the Death Penalty,” Criminology, 1998; Ernie Thompson, “Effects of an Execution on Homicides in California.” Homicide Studies, 1999)

The murder rate in Canada has dropped by 27% since the death penalty was abolished in that country in 1976. (Amnesty International)

A Texas study determined in 1999 that there was no relation between the number of executions and murder rates in general. (Victoria Brewer, Robert Wrinkle, John Sorenson and James Marquart)

A New York Times survey demonstrated that the homicide rate in states with capital punishment have been 48% to 101% higher than those without the death penalty. (Raymond Bonner and Ford Fessenden, “Absence of Executions,” New York Times, September 22, 2000)

The five countries with the highest homicide rates that do not impose the death penalty average 21.6 murders per 100,000 people. The five countries with the highest homicide rate that do impose the death penalty average 41.6 murders for every 100,000 people. (United Nations Development Program)


Those Who Commit Murder Do Not Consider the Consequences of Their Actions




“I am not convinced that capital punishment, in and of itself, is a deterrent to crime because most people do not think about the death penalty before they commit a violent or capital crime.”


– Willie L. Williams, Police Chief, Los Angeles, CA

If it isn't a deterrent then what's the point in having more grieving families?

 

[big soft moose]

its an absolute deterent to those punished - ie the reoffending rate is 0% , which can't be said for any other form of punishment

 

[srichards]

its an absolute deterent to those punished - ie the reoffending rate is 0% , which can't be said for any other form of punishment

That's all very well but if it doesn't lower the rate murders are committed then the net effect is still more people being killed.

Solitary confinement for life would also have the same effect. No contact with other humans would lead to 0 chance of reoffending.

 

[Cobra]

Solitary confinement for life would also have the same effect. No contact with other humans would lead to 0 chance of reoffending.

If you are going to stick to the letter of that, that in it self is very cruel.
Plus that type of isolation may well lead to insanity.
I'd rather be dead than suffer "however many years" of that.

 

[CT]

Why do we see the death penalty as an act of vengeance by the state?

We don't think of it as an act of vengeance when a dangerous animal is put down - just a sad but necessary step to protect people from it.

The fact is that there are are a core of prisoners currently detained in this country who will be a threat to others for as long as they live. It's fine as long as they're securely locked up and they're only a threat to other prisoners, and those who have the unfortunate responsibility of dealing with them on a daily basis. Time and again though, we've seen the so-called experts, declare them safe to be paroled or released whereon they've gone out and killed again.

 

[boyfalldown]

Why do we see the death penalty as an act of vengeance by the state?

We don't think of it as an act of vengeance when a dangerous animal is put down - just a sad but necessary step to protect people from it.

The fact is that there are are a core of prisoners currently detained in this country who will be a threat to others for as long as they live. It's fine as long as they're securely locked up and they're only a threat to other prisoners, and those who have the unfortunate responsibility of dealing with them on a daily basis. Time and again though, we've seen the so-called experts, declare them safe to be paroled or released whereon they've gone out and killed again.

It's hard to see it as anything else when the prisoner thinks they'll be able to finish their lunch afterwards. It's fair to say they don't understand their punishment, and is nothing but vengeful.

Don't parole, take a US approach of sentencing for 200-300 years so parole after a third is irrelevant or sentence for whole of life tarrifs.

 

[CT]

It's hard to see it as anything else when the prisoner thinks they'll be able to finish their lunch afterwards. It's fair to say they don't understand their punishment, and is nothing but vengeful.

Don't parole, take a US approach of sentencing for 200-300 years so parole after a third is irrelevant or sentence for whole of life tarrifs.

You're quoting one particular case, and if its accurately quoted then you have to question the guy's sanity and fitness to plead in the first place. There are plenty of others who's sanity isn't in question, who show no remorse and will simply tell you that they enjoy killing. They have no social conscience whatsoever and are so far removed from the basic expectations of behaviour that we expect in any reasonable society, that we should simply rid ourselves of them and their continuing risk to others.

I certainly agree with the US idea of the whole life sentences. However many of these people are frightening scary people to have to deal with - even in the controlled environment of a prison. Make no mistake, they're intimidating people to have to deal with, but as long as we're happy for someone else to be taking the risks for us then we can sit back and give ourselves a pat on the back for our 'enlightened' stance on the subject.

 

[boyfalldown]

It is an extreme case, but if you look at the US the majority executed have lower the normal IQs and can't afford proper defences. Those cases where the death penalty is sought where the defendant is of an average or above IQ and can afford a reasonable defence have a much lower chance of a capital sentence. That's not enlightened.

An approach that involves us repealing 45 years of legislation is not 'enlightened' either.

 

[CT]

It is an extreme case, but if you look at the US the majority executed have lower the normal IQs and can't afford proper defences. Those cases where the death penalty is sought where the defendant is of an average or above IQ and can afford a reasonable defence have a much lower chance of a capital sentence. That's not enlightened.

An approach that involves us repealing 45 years of legislation is not 'enlightened' either.

Anyone facing the death penalty is going to get more than an adequate defence whether they can afford it or not. The difference is that those who can afford it get the high profile attorneys who play ducks and drakes with the whole system ala the O.J Simpson case - that isn't justice or enlightenment either, and these guys only take the cases to further their own high profile and further advancement anyway - justice is the last thing they're interested in.

 

[boyfalldown]

Anyone facing the death penalty is going to get more than an adequate defence whether they can afford it or not. The difference is that those who can afford it get the high profile attorneys who play ducks and drakes with the whole system ala the O.J Simpson case - that isn't justice or enlightenment either, and these guys only take the cases to further their own high profile and further advancement anyway - justice is the last thing they're interested in.

Youre right about the OJ case, but as far as i remember capital punishment was never sought.Happy to be wrong though.

But the US shows you to be wrong about adequate defences in many cases, atleast over there.

All of which detracts from the point that the death penalty doesn't deter. That's been shown time and again from the US having a murder rate nearly five times higher then western Europe, to the likes of Ian Brady who committed his horrific crimes while the death penalty was still carried out in the UK.

It's a punishment with no place in modern society

 

[Laudrup]

Anyone facing the death penalty is going to get more than an adequate defence whether they can afford it or not. The difference is that those who can afford it get the high profile attorneys who play ducks and drakes with the whole system ala the O.J Simpson case - that isn't justice or enlightenment either, and these guys only take the cases to further their own high profile and further advancement anyway - justice is the last thing they're interested in.

Mumia Abu-Jamal, who was the cause célèbre once upon a time, was provided with a $14,000 legal defence. O.J. Simpson spent $5,000,000 dollars and received $5,000,000 dollars worth of justice. You aren't finding many millionaires or billionaires on death row.

 

[cambsno]

Youre right about the OJ case, but as far as i remember capital punishment was never sought.Happy to be wrong though.

But the US shows you to be wrong about adequate defences in many cases, atleast over there.

All of which detracts from the point that the death penalty doesn't deter. That's been shown time and again from the US having a murder rate nearly five times higher then western Europe, to the likes of Ian Brady who committed his horrific crimes while the death penalty was still carried out in the UK.

It's a punishment with no place in modern society

I can't compare the us to Europe. Differernt cultures.

 

[joescrivens]

everyone in this thread for the death penalty has put good evidence and rationale for why they want it

everyone in this thread agaimst the death penalty has put good evidence and rationale for why they don't want it

Nobody has changed their minds. Seems now the discussion has reached a point where it's fruitless. It's been a good debate, but one that will carry on for eterinty with nobody moving camps.

 

[boyfalldown]

I can't compare the us to Europe. Differernt cultures.

It's the best we have

But joe is ( unusually for him ) right. I'm going to finish here before a good discussion gets unpleasant

 

[CT]

I see no reason why the thread should become unpleasant, although we're never going to agree, and little is going to be achieved by it.

Just the brief details of one case I was personally involved with....

A 14 year old lad dragged from his bike in broad daylight and bundled into a van by two men who took him to a house where they bathed him, covered him in talcum powder and over a couple of days repeatedly sodomised him and subjected him to every indignity imaginable.

They then put him in the van and drove him out to the sticks. It was a warm night but according to one of the offenders the poor lad was so scared they could hear his teeth chattering over the sound of the engine. When they arrived at their destination, they stripped him, taunted him for a while despite his tears and finally one of them disembowelled him with a large sheath knife.

It was an awful case to deal with both from the point of view of the details of the offence, and having to meet the heart broken family of the lad. The perpetrators were just two unsavoury loathesome individuals who both fully admitted their parts in the offences.

They pleaded guilty and drew life sentences, with no recommendations being made by the trial judge. Both were released from custody years ago in a remarkably short term certainly less than the accepted minimum life term. There's no way those two aren't a threat to society and who knows what they may have done in the years they've been at large.

Had it been my son and the opportunity ever arose, then they would answer to me and you could quite rightly call it vengeance because that's exactly what it would be.

The whole point of the state carrying out the death penalty is that the judgement is objective and detached. We have a right to expect the state to protect us from these individuals, but they failed dismally in this case, and it's only one of many I could quote.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I see no reason why the thread should become unpleasant, although we're never going to agree, and little is going to be achieved by it.

Just the brief details of one case I was personally involved with....

A 14 year old lad dragged from his bike in broad daylight and bundled into a van by two men who took him to a house where they bathed him, covered him in talcum powder and over a couple of days repeatedly sodomised him and subjected him to every indignity imaginable.

They then put him in the van and drove him out to the sticks. It was a warm night but according to one of the offenders the poor lad was so scared they could hear his teeth chattering over the sound of the engine. When they arrived at their destination, they stripped him, taunted him for a while despite his tears and finally one of them disembowelled him with a large sheath knife.

It was an awful case to deal with both from the point of view of the details of the offence, and having to meet the heart broken family of the lad. The perpetrators were just two unsavoury loathesome individuals who both fully admitted their parts in the offences.

They pleaded guilty and drew life sentences, with no recommendations being made by the trial judge. Both were released from custody years ago in a remarkably short term certainly less than the accepted minimum life term. There's no way those two aren't a threat to society and who knows what they may have done in the years they've been at large.

Had it been my son and the opportunity ever arose, then they would answer to me and you could quite rightly call it vengeance because that's exactly what it would be.

The whole point of the state carrying out the death penalty is that the judgement is objective and detached. We have a right to expect the state to protect us from these individuals, but they failed dismally in this case, and it's only one of many I could quote.

I fully accept your points, and I think that a lot of us have personal knowledge of similar cases. I knew the family who lost their son in the case below.

I remember a 9 year old lad who was sexually assaulted and murdered by a neighbour, who was also the best friend of the lad's father. This monster acted as baby sitter for their other child while the parents were looking for their son...

I don't know what happened to the killer, but a few years ago there was talk of releasing him

Soon after his arrest, another member of the family, a serving soldier, was stopped by police whilst driving from his barracks. He had some other soldiers in the car, and enough automatic weapons in the boot to start a small war. He was allegedly on his way to the police station where the murderer was being held. From memory, at his trial he was found not guilty of conspiracy to murder and various firearms offences, a perverse verdict no doubt but many would say the right one... But if he had succeeded, it would have been vengence, just as judicial murder is vengence.

It's the responsiblity of our judicial system and, ultimately, of our political leaders, to protect us from people who have committed heinous acts. If they fail to do so then the fault is with them, not with the fact that we are now too civilised to kill criminals.

 

[Gremlin]

Solitary confinement for life would also have the same effect. No contact with other humans would lead to 0 chance of reoffending.

If you are going to stick to the letter of that, that in it self is very cruel.
Plus that type of isolation may well lead to insanity.
I'd rather be dead than suffer "however many years" of that.

and would that in itself not be a good deterrent :shrug:

Problem in my mind is that proison is too soft and no longer a punishment other then loss of freedom and these days seem to be filled with easy targets who could probably be dealt with more effectively in another way.
Another point reacently in the news, old people having to pay for retirement care and losing their homes etc.
Why can't ALL criminals have their assets seized to help pey for their prison costs

 

[big soft moose]

An interesting point about theis debate is that the main argument from those opposed is not -"i'm morally opposed to executing ahuman in any circumstances' but "what if you've got the wrong man ?"

Which begs the hypothetical question of how many would still be opposed to CP in a case where they knew the right man had been arrested and tried ?