onomatopoeia
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Yes, but the family may not share the views of the victim. Certainly applies in my family.
and the site receives a small commission
Is it time for the death penalty?
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Yes, but the family may not share the views of the victim. Certainly applies in my family.
joescrivens
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Lots of people say it.
I love revenge, it's one of the purest feelings out there, the feeling of karma coming round to bite whoever it is on the ass who did you wrong.
joescrivens
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joescrivens
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well because you got their name wrong. :shrug:
unless you meant the gang of toddlers who go around throwing toys at people but I don't think their rivals are the bloods I think they are called the bibs
ZoneV
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joescrivens said:well because you got their name wrong. :shrug:
unless you meant the gang of toddlers who go around throwing toys at people but I don't think their rivals are the bloods I think they are called the bibs
Are you having an early gin? The Bloods and the Crips are both huge LA gangs, since the 80's. A quick google will show you that.
joescrivens
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Are you having an early gin? The Bloods and the Crips are both huge LA gangs, since the 80's. A quick google will show you that.
I would suggest that it is you who is having the early gin since you can't see your mistake. Take another look
5 points if you can see your error
p.s. if a mod is watching you may have just got your first tagline
something to note, it is claimed that the crips did start off as the cribs though, due to the age of their members, but it got changed very early on, rumour has it due to the fact a lot of them used to walk around carrying canes, then it was changed to the crips, but I don't know if that was really true
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joescrivens
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Ah yes I see my "massive fail".
What's a "tagline", joe?
the little "amusing" comment you get underneath your username. Some admin sado usually concuts it, usually matty I think.
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I's like to see the death penalty re-introduced for any wilful pre-meditated murder and in particular....
The murder of an on duty police officer or anyone going to his assistance.
Murder in the furtherance of crime, e.g. robbery.
Any sexually motivated murder.
Murders committed in the heat of the moment or under provocation, such as many domestic murders, shouldn't carry the death penalty, but wilful serial killers the likes of Brady, Neilson, Sutcliffe etc., should have been rotting under unconsecrated ground years ago.
The murder of an on duty police officer or anyone going to his assistance.
Murder in the furtherance of crime, e.g. robbery.
Any sexually motivated murder.
Murders committed in the heat of the moment or under provocation, such as many domestic murders, shouldn't carry the death penalty, but wilful serial killers the likes of Brady, Neilson, Sutcliffe etc., should have been rotting under unconsecrated ground years ago.
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joescrivens
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I can accept that possibility because I think it will be much less than the damage done by the individuals still living on this earth.
Collateral damage. It's not pefect but it's better than our current system.
boyfalldown
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Do you think you'll still say that though when its one of your children who is collateral damage? Or still think 'Well its not ideal, but that just the price you pay'
Don't let them walk around. Life meaning a whole life term in prison is the way forward IMHO
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I haven't read the whole thread so I don't know which cases have been mentioned, but the two which regularly get quoted as miscarriages are Timothy Evans and James Hanratty.
Timothy Evans remains the only genuine case of a miscarriage of justice fairly conclusively proven, although Christie never admitted to the murders of Evans wife and child so there remains a small element of doubt.
Hanratty maintained his innocence all along and his family have fought to clear his name for years. Conclusive DNA evidence recently showed that his sperm was in the surviving rape victim, Valerie Storey. Her boyfriend was shot dead in a particularly nasty crime.
Hanratty's family still won't accept his guilt, and are alleging cross contamination of the police samples, which has been proven to be not the case by careful independent testing. He was as guilty as hell and there's no miscarriage there.
Evans remains the only real innocent victim. Of course it's unfortunate , but I can accept such a small percentage of error overall, if you're looking for infallibility it doesn't exist in any system and anyway, in many cases the guilt of the offender isn't in doubt with loads of conclusive evidence, and confessions to boot.
joescrivens
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Let's turn the boot on the other foot.
If you had the chance to execute a murderer and chose not to, then they walked the street and killed your child would you think it was a good idea not to kill them because after all -they may have been innocent?
The argument cuts both ways hugh.
Keeping them in jail "forever" still runs the risk of them killing someone in jail or escaping and killing your child. Terminate them and that risk will never be there
SpikeK6
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Surely there is enough froenzic evidence these days to proove if someone is guilty or not, surely the death penelty could be introduced for these types of cases.
Like may mentioned already moors murderers, pete sutcliff etc etc where they are 100% guilty just get rid of them.
When it cannot be prooved 100% then they get life, and by that I mean life not some namby pamby sentience wherre they will be free in a few years to either do it again or live close to the people they affected in the first place and cause greif just by being there.
with technological break throughs we have today surely if they can proove some one is innocent after say sitting on death row for 20 years then it must be able to work the other way round.
How many peole get convicted of murder, kiddy fiddling, etc with this type of evidence now?? nealry all of them I bet as they have to be certain to sentence them, sooo it stands to reason it does work.
spike
Like may mentioned already moors murderers, pete sutcliff etc etc where they are 100% guilty just get rid of them.
When it cannot be prooved 100% then they get life, and by that I mean life not some namby pamby sentience wherre they will be free in a few years to either do it again or live close to the people they affected in the first place and cause greif just by being there.
with technological break throughs we have today surely if they can proove some one is innocent after say sitting on death row for 20 years then it must be able to work the other way round.
How many peole get convicted of murder, kiddy fiddling, etc with this type of evidence now?? nealry all of them I bet as they have to be certain to sentence them, sooo it stands to reason it does work.
spike
boyfalldown
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That's not completely true, just in the UK in the last half century Bentley was overturned (though I do realise he would of been retried), Mattan was exonerated completely.
I think its reasonable to speculate the Birmingham six, Guildford four, macguire six and Judith ward would all of been sentenced to death had that been available to the court at the time.
I'm still genuinely interested if it was your wife, or child would you be as quick to say 'oh thats unfortunate'.
ETA - one more Stefan Kiszko. I'd put money that having been convicted for the rape and murder of an 11 year old girl he would of been sentenced to death. He was completely exonerated just months before he died
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boyfalldown
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All true, but I'm not suggesting you let them walk the street, lock them away, leave them there for life. Its cheaper them terminating and theres enough evidence both of the fallibility of the death penalty and the way its applied in the US to make me shudder.
Being honest, why do you care if they kill someone in jail. I'm not really worried, but you'd of killed them both anyway. It is a really small risk of them escaping, so small as to not really be worth a sensible argument.
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I've already said that the small percentage of risk is acceptable to me so I have to take the whole nine yards.
The B'ham Six were freed on the strength of no new evidence whatsoever, and despite the fact that several appeals had upheld their original convictions. They were released in response to a public clamour which was ridiculous with people
screaming for their release with little or no knowledge of the case or the evidence. In the end it was a political decision to release them - nothing else.
A subsequent huge re-enquiry into the bombings concluded that they'd have charged the same people all over again. The results of that enquiry were never made public and hardly surprising really considering that the six had been compensated by then in an undisclosed sum but it would certainly have been millions.
I'm still subject to The Official Secrets Act unfortunately, but the less you know about some of this stuff the better.
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joescrivens
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so if your son/daughter grows up to be a prison guard and gets killed you would be ok with that?
boyfalldown
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I'm not going to argue about any of the details. I just think that any % is too high, and there is enough evidence of serious miscarriages in the past to prevent taking whats a undoable step in the future (and IMHO) a step backwards for us as a society.
BTW that undisclosed sum was £840,000 to £1.2m each according to google.
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boyfalldown
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I never said anything like that, but it is getting a little far fetched now.
joescrivens
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right but you are claiming if they kill someone in jail it's ok. People in jail aren't all murderers, theres staff too and unless they are kept in solitary confinement with no human contact there is a risk to everyone who comes in contact with them.
The fact is nowadays the risk to killing an innocent person is no higher than a murderer in jail escaping and killing someone or killing a member of staff, so thats just as far fethced in my opinion.
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We can argue about it forever and we'll never agree. If you ever have the misfortune to hear the tape of Leslie Anne Downey pleading for her life while being raped and tortured by Bradey and Hindley, you might think differently. It made me and many others weep uncontrollably
Not all cops agree with the death penalty anyway, but for me theres no moral issue whatsoever. If there's any doubt then commute to life, but when the evidence is overwhelming and accompanied by confessions, then there's no moral dilemma for me. The most precious thing any of us have is our lives. To take someone's life away you rob them of all they are and all they can ever be, leaving enduring misery for their families. I see no injustice in them forfeiting their own lives as punishment.
The argument goes on about whether it's a deterrent or not, but the one thing which isn't in doubt is that shortly after meeting Albert Pierrepoint, no-one was ever going to be in danger from them again.
Not all cops agree with the death penalty anyway, but for me theres no moral issue whatsoever. If there's any doubt then commute to life, but when the evidence is overwhelming and accompanied by confessions, then there's no moral dilemma for me. The most precious thing any of us have is our lives. To take someone's life away you rob them of all they are and all they can ever be, leaving enduring misery for their families. I see no injustice in them forfeiting their own lives as punishment.
The argument goes on about whether it's a deterrent or not, but the one thing which isn't in doubt is that shortly after meeting Albert Pierrepoint, no-one was ever going to be in danger from them again.
boyfalldown
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I didn't say it was OK, mearly that I wasn't worried and was surprised you were
I think it quite interesting to say that, 30 years ago before we'd ever heard of DNA I'm prepared to bet we would of wagered all convictions were safe. What new evidence will come along 30 years from now that may clear people who we are so sure were guilty? I dunno, and I'm prepared to bet non of you do (else will you help with my lottery ticket?)
joescrivens
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ok, apologies, you weren;t saying it was ok. But I think I have explained why I would be worried as I think there is more chance of a murderer who has literally nothing to live for knowing no matter how much he changes or puts good behaviour he is never ever leaving jail killing a member of staff or escaping than us wrongly hanging someone.
That's just how I see the statistics playing out
You didn't need DNA 30 years ago, just a mentally ill person and an interrogation room.
boyfalldown
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Laudrup said:
I thought you needed a witness who was being offered a reward the same value as a small house as well
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With scrotes like that (and Huntley and such) if we arent able to execute them because of EU law (odd how many other EU laws we don't observe when it suite - but i digress), at the least IMO they shouldnt get protective custody in prison
then they can get what they've got coming from the general populace - I wouldnt shed too many tears if an armed robber called vinnie stabbed Ian Brady to death with a sharpened toothbrush
Vinnie would be locked up until the end of his days, which isn't good for Vinnie or his family. It also isn't good for the ordinary prison guard who has to break up the fight and risk being hurt or the counselling they'll need after seeing someone shanked to death. Nobody wins.
boyfalldown
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CT said:
No I doubt we will. I'm really glad I'll never hear those tapes.
12 years ago one of my uni flat mates was murdered while on a vso placement. I've seen first hand the effect that had on her family and obviously i feel no end of sorrow for that.
I think the truth rarely lies in extremes though, we can talk about examples such as Brady on your side or mattan on mine, but I still think it will be a step backwards for us as a society. I'm sure brutalising society further is a bad thing
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only if he gets caught - if he has any sense he'll shank the scrote at the far end of the showers and then wash himself clean before the steam clears.
however my feeling is that you are being deliberately obtuse - the point was that if people like huntley, brady etc are sent to prison then vinnie and his mates are bound to do them propper , therefore prison isnt the answer and we clearly can't release them so lets just electrocute, hang, shoot or whatever the nasty little scrotes and have done with it
boyfalldown
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I'm not sure he is being obtuse, but the argument is getting a little stalemated
I would never try and belittle or in any way take away from the sheer horror of what Brady did, I would point out when he was arrested and tried capital punishment was still legal in the uk. It was nearly 50 years ago and around the time (4 years before) we abolished capital punishment. He must of been at the forefront of people's minds when it was abolished.
The last person hanged in the uk was after Brady's first murder. Sadly it didn't deter
I would never try and belittle or in any way take away from the sheer horror of what Brady did, I would point out when he was arrested and tried capital punishment was still legal in the uk. It was nearly 50 years ago and around the time (4 years before) we abolished capital punishment. He must of been at the forefront of people's minds when it was abolished.
The last person hanged in the uk was after Brady's first murder. Sadly it didn't deter
If the authorities couldn't catch a murderer in their own prison the we really are in trouble. Besides, these revenge killers or fantasists would want to be known as 'the guy that done Huntley' to enhance their hard man status. When justice is left to the whim of a psychopath with homicidal urges in prison then we really have lost the plot.
Vinnie and his mates should concentrate on rehabilitation and reentering society as someone productive, not trying to be judge jury and executioner.
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i don't think anyones actually said that - but 'collateral damage' is an accepted fact of life in military operations , so the 'state' does regularly kill the innocent in order to kill the guilty, its just that it happens in iraq, afganistan etc rather than within the uk
as i said earlier its bonkers that we can legally send special forces to kill a suspected terrorist, but we cant execute a convicted one.