Flash In The Pan
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pepi1967 said:
It would certainly deter one from committing a second murder
and please use their services
Is it time for the death penalty?
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It would certainly deter one from committing a second murder
pepi1967
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joescrivens
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There has been quite a significant decrease in the last decade, 2.1 per 100,000 in 2002 to 1.23 per 100,000 in 2010
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate_to_1999
currently, the 14 countries with the worst murder rate are all in Central / South AMerica
Garry Edwards
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IMO there have been too many innocent people executed in the past (1 would be 1 too many but there have been loads) and although we now have a 'better' legal system, DNA, more honest police etc., the potential for conviction of the innocent still stands, so the death penalty is automatically wrong on practical grounds, even if it is right on moral grounds.
In the present case, the alleged murderer has allegedly now taken his own life, so in his case at least, the question is academic.
Once again, the alleged murder seems to have been committed with an illegally held firearm. He didn't have a firearms certificate. Nearly all murders involving guns are committed by people people who are committing serious criminal acts just by having them in the first place.
In the present case, the alleged murderer has allegedly now taken his own life, so in his case at least, the question is academic.
Once again, the alleged murder seems to have been committed with an illegally held firearm. He didn't have a firearms certificate. Nearly all murders involving guns are committed by people people who are committing serious criminal acts just by having them in the first place.
joescrivens
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I've been asking for this. How many have there been? How many is "loads"?
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A stat that maybe of interest:-
In the U.K., reviews prompted by the Criminal Cases Review Commission have resulted in one pardon and three exonerations for people executed between 1950 and 1953 (when the execution rate in England and Wales averaged 17 per year), with compensation being paid.
that's 4 in 68 - 6%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution
Further reading:-
In the U.K., reviews prompted by the Criminal Cases Review Commission have resulted in one pardon and three exonerations for people that were executed between 1950 and 1953 (when the execution rate in England and Wales averaged 17 per year), with compensation being paid. Timothy Evans was granted a posthumous free pardon in 1966. Mahmood Hussein Mattan was convicted in 1952 and was the last person to be hanged in Cardiff, Wales, but had his conviction quashed in 1998. George Kelly was hanged at Liverpool in 1950, but had his conviction quashed by the Court of Appeal in June 2003.[13] Derek Bentley had his conviction quashed in 1998 with the appeal trial judge, Lord Bingham, noting that the original trial judge, Lord Goddard, had denied the defendant "the fair trial which is the birthright of every British citizen."
Colin Campbell Ross (1892 1922) was an Australian wine-bar owner executed for the rape and murder of a child which became known as The Gun Alley Murder, despite there being evidence that he was innocent. Following his execution, efforts were made to clear his name, and in the 1990s old evidence was re-examined with modern forensic techniques which supported the view that Ross was innocent. In 2006 an appeal for mercy was made to Victoria's Chief Justice and on 27 May 2008, the Victorian government pardoned Ross in what is believed to be an Australian legal first.[14]
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My opinion -
using capital punishment as a method of retribution by the state is barbaric.
using capital punishment as a method of deterrent is unproven.
using capital punishment as a method of retribution by the state is barbaric.
using capital punishment as a method of deterrent is unproven.
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From Wiki though why you couldn't just have google this for yourself I don't know..
That works out at six percent of executions in the UK between 1950 and 53 being wrongful.
On the same page - In the US 'more than' fifteen inmates of death row have been subsequently aquitted (before execution) after new evidence was found. That's fifteen plus people who had been found guilty and could have been killed,
Info from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrongful_execution
/edit Rapscallion got there ahead of me.
Uneducated_Rick
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Flash In The Pan
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Rapscallion said:
Taking it a bit further, what then should be done with the likes of Brady and Huntley? The latter in particular seems to have a very comfortable life in prison.
Personally, rather than execution I'd like to see them locked up in a tiny bare cell, with just the minimum of essentials, 23 hours a day, for the rest of their natural and **** their "human rights".
None of this giving them books or tvs, or allowing them to undertake OU degrees, solitary for the rest of their lives.
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gramps
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Sorry but I cannot accept stats from wikipedia ... it is taken as 'the authority' but is clearly not so and is so easy to manipulate ... not saying the stats are wrong on this issue but I would need a significantly better authority.
joescrivens
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because I don't think wikipedia is the greatest source, it's written by the public.
Are there any offical sources on the topic?
Also, I would imagine that given better technology our rate of wrongful imprisonments now is a lot better than it was 60 years ago so those figures are not very useful
15 people out of how many deaths?
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gramps
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but where would you wish to compare to then. I *think* thats the only western country that still actually executes. All the others that still have death penalty of statute have a moriatum on it IIRC. Of course it could be the figures don't match your assumptions
Of course if you wanted comparible gun ownership then Switzerland and the US would be about equal by that measure.
I don't think it is necessary to compare with anywhere else, just consider the UK ... how many convicted murderers have been released to murder again?
It's all very well saying, as some are, "1 wrong execution is 1 too many" (it is) but doesn't it also work the other way?
TriggerHappy
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gramps said:
Wikipedia has a pretty decent referencing system. Look at the reference behind the statistics to decide for yourself if you feel they're reliable
boyfalldown
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it got a pretty good reference system for most articles. TBH it sounds more s though you don't like the figures then anything else?
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gramps
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Wikipedia has a pretty decent referencing system. Look at the reference behind the statistics to decide for yourself if you feel they're reliable
I would just rather reference a more reliable work than check everything everyone adds to wikipedia - as far as I am concerned it is a 'non-work'.
joescrivens
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no I agree with gramps, so often people think wikipedia is the oracle of everything and if it is found there it must be true. Not saying everything on there is false, but there are enough inaccuracies that I avoid it for anything concrete
boyfalldown
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I don't get this. If you wish to see if the death penalty is a deterrent surely you have to compare with somewhere that has it?
The death penalty won't come back, and with good reason. It doesn't deter people, you can kill innocent people by mistake and you could be looking at 20 years on death row anyway and countless legal objections before it happens. Let the barbarians keep it.
The prisons being more comfortable (in relative terms) I can understand. If you keep a prisoner well fed, occupied and less inclined to cause trouble then you'll have fewer incidents to deal with. If you treat them like dirt and in confinement all day when they inevitably riot and if they capture you they will do things to you that will make you wish you'd never been born. It's all well and good wanting them treated like animals when you don't have to deal with them.
The prisons being more comfortable (in relative terms) I can understand. If you keep a prisoner well fed, occupied and less inclined to cause trouble then you'll have fewer incidents to deal with. If you treat them like dirt and in confinement all day when they inevitably riot and if they capture you they will do things to you that will make you wish you'd never been born. It's all well and good wanting them treated like animals when you don't have to deal with them.
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For those doubting Wikipedia, if you click on the little numbers it leads to the source, in this case:-
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html
http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-and-analysis/homicide.html
boyfalldown
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I'd agree with you if this was a bleeding edge science paper, but its a TP discussion and that article has 15 references if you wanted to follow them up
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gramps
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That would only be true if the 'samples' were at least similar.
boyfalldown
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without being funny, of the countries that still inact the death penalty I can't think of one more similar. Atleast by most objective measures
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gramps
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True, the politicians wouldn't have the courage.
You don't have to treat them like animals but neither do you have to give them almost celebrity status ... isn't someone planning to make a film about the murderer who changed his name to Bronson or something?
Then there is the drug problem in prison, not to mention intimidation of witnesses by mobile phone etc.
If prison is going to work it has to both toughen up AND change.
Flash In The Pan
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gramps said:
The film was made 4 years ago, it was on the telly quite recently...
http://m.imdb.com/title/tt1172570/
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gramps
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But just because it might be the only available candidate doesn't make it an appropriate comparison.
Garry Edwards
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There is NO tarrif that allows convicted murderers to be freed to murder again, the sentence is life, and they serve life unless the Home Secretary sees fit to release them on licence - it's the parole system that needs to be looked at in some cases, not the sentencing.
Harry Roberts, who murdered 2 police officers in 1966 is still in prison 46 years later, even though the recommendation was for not less than 30 years.
Brady will never be released, I doubt whether Huntley will be either. Two of the Kray brothers died in prison, the 3rd was released from prison just before he died of cancer, i.e. he was released on compassionate grounds and would not have been released otherwise.
The problem with executing people is that if we find out that they were innocent after all, it's too late.
Harry Roberts, who murdered 2 police officers in 1966 is still in prison 46 years later, even though the recommendation was for not less than 30 years.
Brady will never be released, I doubt whether Huntley will be either. Two of the Kray brothers died in prison, the 3rd was released from prison just before he died of cancer, i.e. he was released on compassionate grounds and would not have been released otherwise.
The problem with executing people is that if we find out that they were innocent after all, it's too late.
boyfalldown
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maybe or maybe not, but you keep questioning 'does it deter?'. By the measures in that country no it doesn't. Its the best way to answer your question
joescrivens
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But how often does this happen now? Not 60 years ago. Now.
How many people in the last 20 years convicted of murder were later found to be innocent?
Where can we get reliable data for that to help with this discussion. Because if those numbers were revealed to be 6% as quoted above then I would change my mind completely .... and that's not something that happens often!
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gramps
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I the 10 years up to 2010, 30 killers were released from prison only to murder again.
Telegraph Report
Some 'politically notorious' killers may well never be released from prison but a whole lot more will get out in super-quick time and of those there will be some who murder again.
Telegraph Report
Some 'politically notorious' killers may well never be released from prison but a whole lot more will get out in super-quick time and of those there will be some who murder again.
joescrivens
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looking at this statistic of exonerations in the US it seems to be an average of 5 per year.
here are the number of executions:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf
so really the percentage is much higher. For the last 20 years or so there was an average of about 50 people killed by the death penalty each year. So that's 10%.
What a crazy crazy figure!!! 10% of people on death row are later proved innocent?
Anyone know what figures are like in the UK, how many people convicted of murder in the last 10 years have been proven innocent? This article would claim that the problem is with the US legal system:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...ay/21/america-death-penalty-murders-innocents
is ours more efffective so we'd have lower exonerations in the first place?
here are the number of executions:
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/documents/FactSheet.pdf
so really the percentage is much higher. For the last 20 years or so there was an average of about 50 people killed by the death penalty each year. So that's 10%.
What a crazy crazy figure!!! 10% of people on death row are later proved innocent?
Anyone know what figures are like in the UK, how many people convicted of murder in the last 10 years have been proven innocent? This article would claim that the problem is with the US legal system:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...ay/21/america-death-penalty-murders-innocents
is ours more efffective so we'd have lower exonerations in the first place?
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Garry Edwards
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I don't know, but for a start there's Barry George, convicted on false forensic evidence.
A bit more than 20 years ago, there was the Polish guy with an unpronouncible name, convicted of the rape and murder of a child, he was convicted on false medical evidence and died very soon after winning his appeal against conviction, after 18 years in prison. The real killer was recently caught and convicted.
And again, a bit more than 20 years ago, there was Winston something or other, sentenced to life for murdering PC Keith Blakelock, he turned out to be innocent too. And these are just the high profile ones that I happen to remember...
boyfalldown
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I was just looking at some of the other US figures as well. There seems to be a really high proportion of low IQ, people how can't afford proper defences and a big racial shift to those executed. Be interesting to know the reasons for that
srichards
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Out of how many? 30 out of 30, 300, 3000?
Prisons are full. This is the problem. More prison spaces are actually needed to accomodate prisoners so they are only let out when it is certain they're safe to be released not because they need the space for someone else. It's the same with hospital beds. People get released because there's someone worse off not because they're well enough to go home.
joescrivens
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i'm trying to find stats but cant find anything, its all related to the US where to be honest the statistics are worrying, seems like their legal system is terrible.
Here you have quoted 3 cases in 20 years, thats really not "loads" like you claim.
pepi1967
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It depends what kind of murder was commited. Was it done in the heat of the moment? was it for financial gain? is he/she a mass murder. Eg you walk in your home to find your wife being attacked so you take your shot gun and blow him away. Does that mean when you get released you will go and kill another person? You cant generalise and say ten murders will be let out to kill again.
joescrivens
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But if they were certain they were safe to be released, how come 30 of them killed again?
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You are deliberately misquoting and misunderstanding! They *should* only be released when it is safe to do so not because they need the space!
I don't think it's that, what political party is going to go back to barbarism?
The vast majority of prisoners will be released, so they need to be readied for the outside world. The recidivism rate is too high, even in countries with horrible prisons. If you can get these prisoners into courses learning English, maths etc or a trade in prison then all the better for them and society on their release. Again drugs can placate prisoners meaning an easier time for guards. Cells could be tossed every night and you could eradicate drugs, but then you have severe animosity building.
People like Charles Bronson being put to death would be a step back too. Murdering mentally ill people isn't something I'd vote for.