Beginner Is it a ""Grey import"" how do you find out ? (Help required please)

Sky said:
Some manufacturer's were really hot on this and would threaten to stop dealing with my company if these were not followed.
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That would be ever so slightly illegal. An RRP is a guide nothing more.

Insistence on its use would be price fixing.
 
Coho-Blue said:
Hi All

As per the title ,, how can you tell if a Camera body (or lens for that matter) is a Grey import ?

EDIT -EDIT - EDIT

Coho-Blue
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I cannot say how other manufacturers would react but if it is a Nikon if you were to contact their UK HQ (I think they are still in Kingston upon Thames) and ask them if it is grey or not they will almost certainly tell you. They hate 'grey' with a passion.
 
DemiLion said:
Insistence on its use would be price fixing.
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I agree, but that's what goes on unfortunately and I lost several contracts because of it. Not that I was selling any cheaper, but the people I supplied did.
 
Craikeybaby said:
Try selling it to MPB - they would not accept one of my lenses as it was flagged on their system as a grey import.
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I have sold lenses and camera bodies to mbp and told them they were purchased grey. Never stopped them buying any of them...
 
trevjm said:
I have sold lenses and camera bodies to mbp and told them they were purchased grey. Never stopped them buying any of them...
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I've just sold 2 lenses and a camera body to them, zero issues.
 
Sky said:
I agree, but that's what goes on unfortunately and I lost several contracts because of it. Not that I was selling any cheaper, but the people I supplied did.
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Retailers who undercut the recommended selling price can find themselves at the bottom of the list for stock, especially new kit that's in short supply.
 
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Both WEX and MPB have. bought grey from me with no qualms. I asked them and they said they're not bothered by it.

Also not clear the grey sellers don't pay VAT. I've had VAT receipts on mine. Reputable companies like B&H in the States often advertise two pricesm giving a choice of "official" and " grey". I bet they pay all their taxes,

I'd be amazed if the authorities turned a blind eye to massive tax fraud as is frequently suggested.

I'm of the opinion "official" imports are a gross rip-off.
 
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At the end of the day branded or grey only matters if your buying a new item . Once your the 2nd owner or it’s out of warranty whichever comes first ,it makes not one iota of difference to the repair facility as your paying standard rate for the repair .
No company will knock back paid for repairs no matter how it was purchased
 
wooster said:
Also not clear the grey sellers don't pay VAT. I've had VAT receipts on mine.
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This is interesting, and the first time I've seen it claimed (except for HDEW, who have a physical shop in the UK). Who from?
 
the black fox said:
At the end of the day branded or grey only matters if your buying a new item . Once your the 2nd owner or it’s out of warranty whichever comes first ,it makes not one iota of difference to the repair facility as your paying standard rate for the repair .
No company will knock back paid for repairs no matter how it was purchased
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Well if the VAT hasn't been paid, then you are breaking the law every bit as much as the original owner.
 
DemiLion said:
Well if the VAT hasn't been paid, then you are breaking the law every bit as much as the original owner.
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Well knock me down with a feather ,clever Trevor
 
grey cameras take better pictures :ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO::ROFLMAO:
should have put the post in hot topics
 
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Retune said:
This is interesting, and the first time I've seen it claimed (except for HDEW, who have a physical shop in the UK). Who from?
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Hi

I believe it was HDEW. I can't honestly recall about others. The discussion was about grey imports and not tax evasion. These are two different things. HDEW sell grey as does B&H in the US and both pay taxes so grey is not really an issue of tax. Note that HDEWs prices are often lower than Panamoz or e-Infinity so savings don't come from non-payment of VAT or anything other due tax.

Tax evasion a completely different scenario and the two shouldn't be confused. If these large importers are evading tax they should be prosecuted, I would be amazed if govt turned a blind eye. I see no evidence that this is the case.
 
DemiLion said:
Well if the VAT hasn't been paid, then you are breaking the law every bit as much as the original owner.
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Where does it say that?

I sell a grey import that hasn't had vat paid on it to someone on gumtree and they're breaking the law?
Would love to see them trying to prosecute someone for that.....
 
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wooster said:
Hi

I believe it was HDEW. I can't honestly recall about others. The discussion was about grey imports and not tax evasion. These are two different things. HDEW sell grey as does B&H in the US and both pay taxes so grey is not really an issue of tax. Note that HDEWs prices are often lower than Panamoz or e-Infinity so savings don't come from non-payment of VAT or anything other due tax.

Tax evasion a completely different scenario and the two shouldn't be confused. If these large importers are evading tax they should be prosecuted, I would be amazed if govt turned a blind eye. I see no evidence that this is the case.
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I agree these are different things and that companies like B&H can operate legitimate parallel imports. But most of the big grey market importers that serve the UK are HK companies, and I've never seen anyone produce a VAT receipt from any of these. If a package is intercepted by Customs, purchasers might get charged via the courier, which many of the grey market dealers will refund, but that's not the same thing. Some of the HK dealers state explicitly that they are not VAT-registered. The obvious conclusion is that VAT is not being paid, and this is partially responsible for the lower prices, over and above any discount the dealers can offer by sourcing from cheaper overseas suppliers (there are some genuine price differentials for some products). HDEW is a UK company that offers a much more limited range of products from a smaller number of manufacturers than their HK competitors. There's no particular reason why legitimate, fully taxed grey market imports to the UK should not be more common, except that companies doing it this way would be at a competitive disadvantage to those that facilitate VAT evasion. Much of the 'grey market' is, presumably, black market. This is such a big problem that, far from turning a blind eye to it, both the EU and the UK are bringing in new import tax regimes that require VAT to be paid in the country of origin.

Anyone who thinks they are paying tax on their HK grey market purchases can end the debate by producing a VAT receipt. I'd have no difficulty obtaining one of these from any UK dealer (if I buy a sandwich from Pret the VAT is itemised).
 
Retune said:
The obvious conclusion is that VAT is not being paid, and this is partially responsible for the lower prices, over and above any discount the dealers can offer by sourcing from cheaper overseas suppliers (there are some genuine price differentials for some products).
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Another obvious conclusion would be that HMRC are not going their job if they are not legitimately documented.

These HK imports have been flowing for years - there's no secrecy. they shouldn't be hard to spot. So why no crackdown?
 
Dryce said:
Another obvious conclusion would be that HMRC are not going their job if they are not legitimately documented.

These HK imports have been flowing for years - there's no secrecy. they shouldn't be hard to spot. So why no crackdown?
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Limited resources? The number of packages coming into the country is vast. People have reported grey importers using various tricks such as under-declaring the value of the contents. It's interesting that some of the grey dealers seem to have given up on the UK in recent months, when of course a few things have changed. The new import tax regime is in place and there is no longer a VAT exemption for low-value items. And with the UK now outside the EU Customs Union, packages coming in from continental Europe are no longer assumed to have had VAT levied already. We know that some packages from HK dealers were coming into the UK via EU27 countries. Perhaps they were using routes of entry into the EU where few packages were intercepted, and then, once inside the Customs Union, sending them on to the UK?

But again, if anyone has a receipt from a grey market HK dealer where VAT is itemised, perhaps they could produce it and end the debate?
 
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darkroom12 said:
I cannot say how other manufacturers would react but if it is a Nikon if you were to contact their UK HQ (I think they are still in Kingston upon Thames) and ask them if it is grey or not they will almost certainly tell you. They hate 'grey' with a passion.
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Yes, Nikon know whether the serial is an official UK model or not....

With that said, when you send a camera in for repair, Nikon will inform you re. the warranty status and simply state that the camera/lens is either eligible for warranty, or is not eligible for warranty as it was purchased outside of the UK.... Following a repair you receive a 6 month service warranty from Nikon, and the origin of the camera is not an issue from there. I've had several lens/camera back to Nikon for repair and sadly, a few of those have had to be returned for subsequent work, but once it's under the 6 month service warranty, that's all they look for.
 
Bobsyeruncle said:
Where does it say that?

I sell a grey import that hasn't had vat paid on it to someone on gumtree and they're breaking the law?
Would love to see them trying to prosecute someone for that.....
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The majority of goods sold in the EU (with a few notable exceptions such as most food stuffs) have to have VAT paid on sale in the first instance.

If not, then VAT is due at the next resale.

That's why you have to pay VAT on used goods bought from a VAT Registered seller (they've claimed the original back) or when importing used goods into the EU.

It is the buyers responsibility to ensure that their purchase is legal.
 
DemiLion said:
The majority of goods sold in the EU (with a few notable exceptions such as most food stuffs) have to have VAT paid on sale in the first instance.

If not, then VAT is due at the next resale.

That's why you have to pay VAT on used goods bought from a VAT Registered seller (they've claimed the original back) or when importing used goods into the EU.

It is the buyers responsibility to ensure that their purchase is legal.
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I understand how VAT works and that makes sense with businesses, but where does it say vat is due at the next resale on a private sale of a grey import?
 
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Bobsyeruncle said:
I understand how VAT works and that makes sense with businesses, but where does it say vat is due at the next resale on a private sale of a grey import?
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It doesn’t and in all honesty the tax people and customs and excise have got better things to do than chase up v.a.t on cameras and lenses from private individuals ,and can we please have less of the holier than thou attitude . Please hold up your hands if you have never broken the speed limit or done something slightly illegal in your lifetimes .
I have stated before that in my teens while working I saw with my own eyes huge amounts of stolen and black market goods being sold and most of it to police, solicitors and judges from bow street court and police station .
 
DemiLion said:
The majority of goods sold in the EU (with a few notable exceptions such as most food stuffs) have to have VAT paid on sale in the first instance.

If not, then VAT is due at the next resale.

That's why you have to pay VAT on used goods bought from a VAT Registered seller (they've claimed the original back) or when importing used goods into the EU.

It is the buyers responsibility to ensure that their purchase is legal.
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I wonder what a tax lawyer would say about this? Imagine a private individual (not a VAT-registered business) buys a 'grey market' item and neglects to pay VAT. He then gets bored of it and sells it on a month later in mint condition to a second buyer, who has no knowledge of how the item was imported. The original buyer makes a small profit, because the going rate on the secondhand market for this item is a little more than the untaxed price he paid. Are you suggesting he is then absolved from paying the original VAT on import, while the second purchaser is now liable for it? The equitable position would surely be that in this situation responsibility for paying tax still rests with the original purchaser, who is the importer of record but not running a business that can charge or reclaim VAT, and I'd be surprised if this were not the legal position.
 
Retune said:
I wonder what a tax lawyer would say about this? Imagine a private individual (not a VAT-registered business) buys a 'grey market' item and neglects to pay VAT. He then gets bored of it and sells it on a month later in mint condition to a second buyer, who has no knowledge of how the item was imported. The original buyer makes a small profit, because the going rate on the secondhand market for this item is a little more than the untaxed price he paid. Are you suggesting he is then absolved from paying the original VAT on import, while the second purchaser is now liable for it? The equitable position would surely be that in this situation responsibility for paying tax still rests with the original purchaser, who is the importer of record but not running a business that can charge or reclaim VAT, and I'd be surprised if this were not the legal position.
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From the moment that it is imported into the EU, VAT is due on the item. That means that whomever owns it is liable to pay the tax.*

Should it be the original importer? Morally, probably yes. But that's not how things work.


EDIT: * a better phraseology is that it is the owners responsibility to know/ensure that tax has been paid on the item.
 
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DemiLion said:
From the moment that it is imported into the EU, VAT is due on the item. That means that whomever owns it is liable to pay the tax.*

Should it be the original importer? Morally, probably yes. But that's not how things work.


EDIT: * a better phraseology is that it is the owners responsibility to know/ensure that tax has been paid on the item.
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Yes, the importer or original owner....not someone who then buys it second hand....

Screenshot_20210321-203136_Chrome.jpg
 
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It never ceases to amaze me how great the ability of some is to plant their head in the sand.
 
DemiLion said:
From the moment that it is imported into the EU, VAT is due on the item. That means that whomever owns it is liable to pay the tax.*

Should it be the original importer? Morally, probably yes. But that's not how things work.


EDIT: * a better phraseology is that it is the owners responsibility to know/ensure that tax has been paid on the item.
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Let's say the second purchaser decides to upgrade a year later and sells it to MPB, and I buy it from them. Are purchaser 1, purchaser 2, MPB and I jointly and severally liable for the tax, or is it just me, the original purchaser, or who? Can everyone further up the chain than me wash their hands of their liability, including the actual tax evader, purchaser 1?
 
Retune said:
Limited resources? The number of packages coming into the country is vast. People have reported grey importers using various tricks such as under-declaring the value of the contents. It's interesting that some of the grey dealers seem to have given up on the UK in recent months, when of course a few things have changed. The new import tax regime is in place and there is no longer a VAT exemption for low-value items. And with the UK now outside the EU Customs Union, packages coming in from continental Europe are no longer assumed to have had VAT levied already. We know that some packages from HK dealers were coming into the UK via EU27 countries. Perhaps they were using routes of entry into the EU where few packages were intercepted, and then, once inside the Customs Union, sending them on to the UK?

But again, if anyone has a receipt from a grey market HK dealer where VAT is itemised, perhaps they could produce it and end the debate?
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But surely all they would need to do is order one product and then have a look and see if VAT was paid. If not, close the company's trade in the UK or levy a massive fine? I might be wrong but for years this debate has been aired onlie and HMRC have never AFAIK made one single prosecution. That just seems too weird. I mean how many resources does it take to find evidence of Panamoz or anyone else importing one parcel of goods without paying VAT?
 
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darkroom12 said:
I cannot say how other manufacturers would react but if it is a Nikon if you were to contact their UK HQ (I think they are still in Kingston upon Thames) and ask them if it is grey or not they will almost certainly tell you. They hate 'grey' with a passion.
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Canon can tell too. So can WEX and MBP. I doubt it's a secret. Nikon UK hate grey because they're a bunch of people who pay Nikon a whack of cash in the hope of being the monopoly supplier in the UK and therefore being able to hike prices to a customer base with no other choice.
 
wooster said:
But surely all they would need to do is order one product and then have a look and see if VAT was paid. If not, close the company's trade in the UK or levy a massive fine? I might be wrong but for years this debate has been aired onlie and HMRC have never AFAIK made one single prosecution. That just seems too weird. I mean how many resources does it take to find evidence of Panamoz or anyone else importing one parcel of goods without paying VAT?
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What does the UK operation of most of these companies really amount to? A regionalised version of their website, a phone number that could be answered from anywhere, maybe a forwarding address? But perhaps I'm completely wrong. This should be very simple to disprove with an itemised receipt showing VAT paid. Haven't seen one yet, but I live in hope.
 
Retune said:
Limited resources? The number of packages coming into the country is vast. People have reported grey importers using various tricks such as under-declaring the value of the contents.
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Not as if HMRC are not wise to that .... so why no crackdown.

It's interesting that some of the grey dealers seem to have given up on the UK in recent months, when of course a few things have changed. The new import tax regime is in place and there is no longer a VAT exemption for low-value item
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That doesn't excuse the lack of crackdown.

And if it doesn't affect all - with some still trading it would suggest those are selling legitimately.- which counters the assertion made that all grey imports are/were avoiding VAT.
 
wooster said:
Canon can tell too. So can WEX and MBP. I doubt it's a secret. Nikon UK hate grey because they're a bunch of people who pay Nikon a whack of cash in the hope of being the monopoly supplier in the UK and therefore being able to hike prices to a customer base with no other choice.
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That is a damming statement. Do you know this for fact or purely anecdotal?

I was at a meeting where there were some Nikon reps a few years ago and the thing about Nikon not liking 'grey' is a misnomer. They have a policy about servicing/repairing cameras bought in this country 'under guarantee' and not imported as 'grey' products.
 
darkroom12 said:
That is a damming statement. Do you know this for fact or purely anecdotal?

I was at a meeting where there were some Nikon reps a few years ago and the thing about Nikon not liking 'grey' is a misnomer. They have a policy about servicing/repairing cameras bought in this country 'under guarantee' and not imported as 'grey' products.
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I don't understand your point. I mean it's how the whole think works surely? Of course that is their policy. It's like if I bought something from Sainsbury's then tried to return it to Tescos. If Nikon was all one big shop they'd not care where you bought it from. I mean all Nikons are made by Nikon so what would the problem be?

As it is Nikon UK have different interests. They are different from Nikon USA etc etc and they are not the same as Nikon in Japan. They each have an agreement to distribute the goods and in return have financial and other obligations surely? They are a franchise. Same as Canon etc etc If I'm being really dozy here I stand to be corrected but its always been my understanding.

I believe my description is pretty much the way it is. It might be dressed up as some other structure but it comes down to that arrangement in practice. Nikon UK have an agreement with Nikon to be the sole distributors for Nikon gear in the UK. Nikon international agree to that just as they have arrangements with groups all over the world who have a financial arrangement with Nikon and other arrangements with other groups elsewhere. These groups seek to be a monopoly in each country and aggressively try to stamp out competition for what is the ability to sell exactly the same product with an increased price
 
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You stating Nikon are involved in practises with dealers that could involve preferential treatment is a little bit naughty, it is bordering on a form of corruption. If someone made allegations like this about me in a public platform which were untrue (and I doubt if you are 100% certain) I would be instructing a solicitor to deal with the matter . Need I say more?

You have to be very careful about writing statements that could involve legal action because they can be very costly indeed.
 
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Dryce said:
Not as if HMRC are not wise to that .... so why no crackdown.



That doesn't excuse the lack of crackdown.

And if it doesn't affect all - with some still trading it would suggest those are selling legitimately.- which counters the assertion made that all grey imports are/were avoiding VAT.
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I don't find the argument that 'HMRC haven't cracked down on it, so it must be fine' terribly convincing, especially since the EU have decided that cross-border VAT evasion (not avoidance) is such a massive problem they are completely changing the way they levy VAT on imports from third countries, and the UK is following suit (and has in fact already pre-empted the implementation of the new EU regime with its own equivalent). But I'm perfectly happy to be proven wrong. Any legitimate, VAT-compliant importer will have no difficulty in providing an itemised receipt showing exactly how much VAT has been paid. Most would do so without the customer asking. This is a large community of photographers, many of whom must use the HK importers. Surely someone can post their existing receipt, or request one for tax purposes? Let's end this discussion now with some definitive evidence. Anyone?
 
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