Is execution appropriate for drugs traffickers?

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Rapscallion said:
Fair point, but what percentage of alcohol and cigarettes is bought illegally for criminal networks? The only cigarettes I have seen offered have been from friends who have traveled abroad, and I don't recall ever been offered alcohol on the cheap.
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You should try dealing with foreign truck drivers regularly.
 
BRASH said:
I see the method was firing squad. Wonder if any of em got shot in the face;)
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Usually they aim for the heart, one of the squad has a blank, so no-one knows who's fired a fatal shot.
 
fracster said:
Exactly, the problem is here and is not going to go away. As an example, would you accept that selling cannabis,in a controlled way rather like alcohol, would take some of the criminality away from that particular drug?
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Seems to work where they've tried it in the US recently and raised money by tax being payable on it.
 
ChrisHeathcote said:
Every days a school day :D
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Yes, indeed. One of my favourite sayings. Use it regularly at work both in relation to myself and colleagues. That said, they tend to learn a lot more from me that I do from them:)
 
Byker28i said:
Is 'Less than the number of suicides by firearm' the answer?
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Is suicide a a crime for which the punishment is death?

If not the suicide stats are rather irrelevant.
 
Phil V said:
Is suicide a a crime for which the punishment is death?

If not the suicide stats are rather irrelevant.
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Depends if your discussing deaths by firearms, there's significantly more suicides by firearms than there are deaths by firearms. Then there's few state executions, last year was 35 in a population of how many million?

Which is why your statement of look at the murder rates in the us vs executions doesn't really seem a relevant argument.

61% of all deaths by gun in the us are suicides. In 2010 it was around 20000 suicides and 11000 murders. It's a small percentage of the population that see owning and using guns as a right. They are legal(mostly) to own, opposed to drugs which have always been illegal.
 
viv1969 said:
Crap. ...of course!
Thank you :)
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No need to thank me. I pass my superior male intelligence, knowledge and intellect without seeking praise, reward or gratitude. However, you are most welcome.
 
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Byker28i said:
Depends if your discussing deaths by firearms, there's significantly more suicides by firearms than there are deaths by firearms. Then there's few state executions, last year was 35 in a population of how many million?

Which is why your statement of look at the murder rates in the us vs executions doesn't really seem a relevant argument.

61% of all deaths by gun in the us are suicides. In 2010 it was around 20000 suicides and 11000 murders. It's a small percentage of the population that see owning and using guns as a right. They are legal(mostly) to own, opposed to drugs which have always been illegal.
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My point wasn't about guns, it was about the murder rate, and it's relationship to the death penalty. It doesn't matter if the murders were by guns or by soup spoon, it doesn't matter how many suicides there were.

The discussion was about the death penalty and its use as a 'deterrent', which it's patently crap for if the murder rate in the U.S. is anything to go by.
 
However only 32 US states still enforce the death penalty and in 2013 only 39 inmates were executed with 3088 on death row.When you look at the population, that is a very small minority.
 
gramps said:
8 convicted Heroin traffickers have been executed by Indonesia, resulting in a diplomatic spat and a global outcry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-32508722

Heroin abuse results in misery for thousands of people and death for others ... bearing in mind that Indonesia has publicly and openly declared its intentions toward drugs traffickers for many years, should we be concerned that these traffickers have been executed or is it a case of the old adage "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime"?
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Personally I don't think it is appropriate for this, or any crime.

Life is the most sacred thing we have, and I don't believe anyone has the right to take someone else's life, with the sole exception of if it is to prevent a clear and immediate threat to someone's life, which this clearly isn't.

Whilst I understand the lack of sympathy for those who have been executed, I still fundamentally agree with what occurred.
 
ChrisHeathcote said:
I think the discussion about whether or not the death penalty is appropriate in this case, is a bit of a void one, because it is well publicised that the penalty for trafficking in Indonesia is death, they still chose to try their luck and got caught. I think a lot of the remonstrance that follows this is more down to the guilty parties' home country putting on more of a political show to its own residents, after all how long would the people in power last if they turned round to its electorate and went, "well you knew what the score was".

As to whether or not the death penalty has its place, that's a debate that will continue to go on and has the scope to become rather inflammatory.
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Agree.

I went to Bali 20 odd years ago & as we approached customs there was a HUGE sign for everyone approaching to see, it simply said; NO IMPORTING OF DRUGS OR FIREARMS. The penalty ......DEATH
 
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akr said:
Personally I don't think it is appropriate for this, or any crime.

Life is the most sacred thing we have, and I don't believe anyone has the right to take someone else's life, with the sole exception of if it is to prevent a clear and immediate threat to someone's life, which this clearly isn't.

Whilst I understand the lack of sympathy for those who have been executed, I still fundamentally agree with what occurred.
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Could it not be argued that by removing the source of heroin, this is helping to prevent the death of others
 
I don't know the figures I'd have to research but my understanding is there are hundreds of drug related deaths every year in Scotland (where I reside) but single figure by firearms (not counting suicide or accident).
 
ChrisHeathcote said:
Could it not be argued that by removing the source of heroin, this is helping to prevent the death of others
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I think the point is that once you catch someone they are not a "clear and immediate" threat to the lives of others. Killing someone once they are caught does not prevent further harm at the hands of that person.
I think the individual you quoted was talking more about something akin to killing someone who was in the act of endangering life *at the time*. For example, shooting an individual threateningly brandishing a weapon in public.
For example, I oppose the death penalty but not the use of deadly force against a clear and present danger. Capturing someone alive is always preferable but not always possible. Take the two individuals who beheaded the soldier in London and then attacked the police with firearms. The police would have been quite justified in killing those men *at that point in time*. The fact they did manage to disable and capture them alive is commendable and preferable, though.
 
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ghoti said:
I think the point is that once you catch someone they are not a "clear and immediate" threat to the lives of others.
I think the individual you quoted was talking more about something akin to killing someone who was in the act of endangering life *at the time*. For example, shooting an individual threateningly brandishing a weapon in public.
For example, I oppose the death penalty but not the use of deadly force against a clear and present danger. Capturing someone alive is always preferable but not always possible. Take the two individuals who beheaded the soldier in London and then attacked the police with firearms. The police would have been quite justified in killing those men *at that point in time*. The fact they did manage to disable and capture them alive is commendable and preferable, though.
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thanks Ghoti, I did get the meaning behind akr's post, I was purely playing devils advocate, should the individuals be released they could then return to their previous ways and therefore would return to being a danger to the lives of others.
 
ChrisHeathcote said:
thanks Ghoti, I did get the meaning behind akr's post, I was purely playing devils advocate, should the individuals be released they could then return to their previous ways and therefore would return to being a danger to the lives of others.
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Life imprisonment or deportation with an imprisonment & release on licence agreement is far preferable to the death penalty.
In my opinion, the state should only employ lethal force against direct dangers during the act.
 
ChrisHeathcote said:
However only 32 US states still enforce the death penalty and in 2013 only 39 inmates were executed with 3088 on death row.When you look at the population, that is a very small minority.
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Still misses the point though! (I could be talking Chinese today).

Here's the stats for the U.S.

You can see that the death penalty isn't really working as a deterrent.

Now if people believe that it's just 'the right thing to do' that's fair enough, but it's idiotic to suggest it's a deterrent, there's been enough evidence against that for years.
 
gramps said:
Interesting you use the word "sacred" ... what do you mean?
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I'm not religious if that's what you mean (I know you are - no offence meant) - I simply mean it as precious, sacred whatever term you like, without it, of course, you are nothing. In this life of course, for those who believe in the afterlife or other such things.
 
Phil V said:
Still misses the point though! (I could be talking Chinese today).

Here's the stats for the U.S.

You can see that the death penalty isn't really working as a deterrent.

Now if people believe that it's just 'the right thing to do' that's fair enough, but it's idiotic to suggest it's a deterrent, there's been enough evidence against that for years.
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Personally I think the U.S. in general seems to have an unhealthy affinity to death and guns
 
akr said:
I'm not religious if that's what you mean (I know you are - no offence meant) - I simply mean it as precious, sacred whatever term you like, without it, of course, you are nothing. In this life of course, for those who believe in the afterlife or other such things.
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No offence taken, I'm just interested in your thinking ... for example which is more sacred, a life ended by execution for distributing drugs or a life lived in slavery to drugs and possible death by them?
 
gramps said:
No offence taken, I'm just interested in your thinking ... for example which is more sacred, a life ended by execution for distributing drugs or a life lived in slavery to drugs and possible death by them?
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That's not really my way of thinking. I have a very simple belief - other than the caveat in my earlier post - that no-one has the right to end another person's life.

I don't think it's a case of either or in your example - for me all life is sacred. You can argue either side about those who distribute drugs vs those who take them, but it's a complicated matter with people in different situations, some of which I'm not really qualified enough to comment on appropriately (though it might not stop me!)
 
I understand some peoples view on life being precious and sacred and as someone who is of a religious persuasion I also feel a sense of sadness at people having their lives ended in this manner. However the balance of the scales has to fall somewhere and drugs and drug smuggling probably inflict the most damage on society. Given also that smugglers are driven purely by greed and know the damage the products they smuggle will do then the penalties should be the most severe. I almost think of crimes like this to be as serious as murder as they are peddling death.
 
They seem to be obsessed with having the right to own the means to inflict death on others.


Steve.
 
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