Is execution appropriate for drugs traffickers?

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gramps

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8 convicted Heroin traffickers have been executed by Indonesia, resulting in a diplomatic spat and a global outcry.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-32508722

Heroin abuse results in misery for thousands of people and death for others ... bearing in mind that Indonesia has publicly and openly declared its intentions toward drugs traffickers for many years, should we be concerned that these traffickers have been executed or is it a case of the old adage "If you can't do the time, don't do the crime"?
 
The death penalty is never appropriate purely because you cannot retract it if you've made a mistake. That said, Indonesia has it and uses it, the men in question committed their crimes knowing full well the penalty they faced in that country and were guilty by their own admission so I have no sympathy for them.
 
Heroin wasn't much of a problem in this country until it was criminalised.....

And the 'war on drugs' is as political a process as can be, there is no way a politician in this country can be anything other than act tough on drugs otherwise the media will crucify him. Professor Nutt compared the risks of ecstasy to horse riding and found the risks to be 30 times worse for horse riding (roughly...), he was sacked shortly after he published a pamphlet that 'revealed alcohol and tobacco to be more harmful than LSD, ecstasy and cannabis' - not what the politicians wanted to hear!
 
Steep said:
The death penalty is never appropriate purely because you cannot retract it if you've made a mistake. /~/ were guilty by their own admission so I have no sympathy for them.
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So as a mistake wasn't made it was appropriate?
 
death penalty is a terrible idea for the majority of crimes
as soon as you cross the death penalty threshold you're in a situation where you might as well kill any potential witnesses to try and get away with it, as you can't get sentenced to death twice!
 
mjScall said:
death penalty is a terrible idea for the majority of crimes
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What do you see as the minority of crimes for which the death penalty is acceptable?
 
gramps said:
What do you see as the minority of crimes for which the death penalty is acceptable?
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to be honest my personal opinion is that no crime deserves the death penalty, however I can understand peoples logic when they suggest murderers/serial killers etc are sentenced to death. In those cases you get into a much more complicated debate about whether it is a deterrent for others etc

anything below actually killing someone however IMO should never be a death sentence for the reasons I mentioned above
 
I don't believe in taking a life for any crime.
However as a rule of law much as I despise it I believe having the death penalty in Indonesia has
probably reduced the amount of crime in the drug trade and in itself saved many lives.

Only the most foolhardy people will take the risk knowing the possible results.
 
gramps said:
What do you see as the minority of crimes for which the death penalty is acceptable?
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oh please we've had that answered on here lots of times, rapists and kiddie fiddler threads have the usual suspect calling for the death penalty, usually in a painful way.
 
In short no. I don't believe the death penalty has a place in the modern world.

However if you are stupid enough to smuggle drugs in a country that upholds the death penatly for doing so the any sympahy is extremely limnited
 
Interesting story, whilst in Thailand I went to the womens prison to visit a couple of british prisoners who had no visitors since convicted. It was suggested to me by a colleague and they were very happy to have someone visit them to chat. Shame no cameras were allowed.

So both had visited Thailand on a gap year, both had stayed longer than they thought as they were having fun, but visa run out/money run out, end of the day neither had the funds to get home so were working in bars slowly saving, but getting nowhere quickly.

A 'friend' from the bar says they'll pay for the flight home, just take this small package, been done lots of times, it's no hassle. They get taken to the airport...

Both young, impressionable, desperate and believed they'd get away with it...
 
Byker28i said:
oh please we've had that answered on here lots of times, rapists and kiddie fiddler threads have the usual suspect calling for the death penalty, usually in a painful way.
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oh please, I was asking mjScall :)
 
gramps said:
oh please, I was asking mjScall :)
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Sorry I also forgot, those not picking up dog poo, anyone feeding pigeons, ST4 and anyone speeding excessively, on and there must be some other driving related ones..:D
 
I think the discussion about whether or not the death penalty is appropriate in this case, is a bit of a void one, because it is well publicised that the penalty for trafficking in Indonesia is death, they still chose to try their luck and got caught. I think a lot of the remonstrance that follows this is more down to the guilty parties' home country putting on more of a political show to its own residents, after all how long would the people in power last if they turned round to its electorate and went, "well you knew what the score was".

As to whether or not the death penalty has its place, that's a debate that will continue to go on and has the scope to become rather inflammatory.
 
ChrisHeathcote said:
I think the discussion about whether or not the death penalty is appropriate in this case, is a bit of a void one, because it is well publicised that the penalty for trafficking in Indonesia is death, they still chose to try their luck and got caught. I think a lot of the remonstrance that follows this is more down to the guilty parties' home country putting on more of a political show to its own residents, after all how long would the people in power last if they turned round to its electorate and went, "well you knew what the score was".

As to whether or not the death penalty has its place, that's a debate that will continue to go on and has the scope to become rather inflammatory.
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Spot on Chris.
 
Ask Timothy Evans, his address is 10 Rillington Place.
 
Whilst i don't agree with the death penalty and think it is wrong, the drug traffickers knew the risks of going to Indonesia with the intent of smuggling drugs. Several countries in the middle east and far east have death sentences for drug smuggling and it is printed in bright red bold letters on landing/immigration cards, they knew the risks associated with drug smuggling and felt it was acceptable.

I feel desperately sorry for the families of those who were executed.
 
As said above its very final BUT they all know the risks and if there's no deterrent then things soon get out of control - spare a thought for all those people the drugs they traffic kill and lives they ruin!
 
I'm fundamentally against the death penalty. But in this case it seems illogical to ask for them not to be (have been) executed unless you also believe the death penalty should be abolished.

Some facts that don't seem in dispute:

1. They did it.

2. They knew they were doing it.

3. They weren't "innocent mules" who were tricked/coerced/forced into doing it because they were desperate for money. They did it. They were gang ringleaders who knew exactly what they were doing.

So I'm fundamentally against the death penalty and would be happy to see it repealed world wide. But in this case I'm afraid I won't lose sleep over these particular people.
 
boyfalldown said:
In short no. I don't believe the death penalty has a place in the modern world.

However if you are stupid enough to smuggle drugs in a country that upholds the death penatly for doing so the any sympahy is extremely limnited
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That really. :agree:

Anyone who sees the death penalty as a 'deterrent' should spend an evening studying the murder statistics for the good ol US of A :banghead:
 
I have no issue with the death penalty in this case for many of the reasons already given. They deserved it because of this.

Eight kilos of heroin can cause one helluva lot of death, destruction and misery. I've seen this first hand on more than one occasion because of bastards like this. They are now dead and I have no sympathy nor would I ever mourn their passing. Good on the Indonesian authorities for sticking to their guns in the face of great international, political pressure not to.
 
Byker28i said:
oh please we've had that answered on here lots of times, rapists and kiddie fiddler threads have the usual suspect calling for the death penalty, usually in a painful way.
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I wouldn't call for it for a painful way, but I would include repeat class A drug use offenders, class A drug dealers, GBH and ABH, all sex related crimes and murder/attempted murder into the death penalty range of sentencing
 
ST4 said:
I wouldn't call for it for a painful way, but I would include repeat class A drug use offenders, class A drug dealers, GBH and ABH, all sex related crimes and murder/attempted murder into the death penalty range of sentencing
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I see the method was firing squad. Wonder if any of em got shot in the face;)
 
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ChrisHeathcote said:
I think the discussion about whether or not the death penalty is appropriate in this case, is a bit of a void one, because it is well publicised that the penalty for trafficking in Indonesia is death, they still chose to try their luck and got caught. I think a lot of the remonstrance that follows this is more down to the guilty parties' home country putting on more of a political show to its own residents, after all how long would the people in power last if they turned round to its electorate and went, "well you knew what the score was".

As to whether or not the death penalty has its place, that's a debate that will continue to go on and has the scope to become rather inflammatory.
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I would rather my home politicians actually did say "well you knew what the score was" rather than waste lots of time and money pontificating over an other countries treatment of our criminals we've had the dishonour of thrusting upon them. Think back to our own girls who were in Peru for smuggling. I say let them rot over there.

Australia and Brazil should be apologising to Indonesia for these disgraceful people, not lambasting the well know and documented justice system of Indonesia.

BRASH said:
I see the method was firing squad. Wonder if any of em got shot in the face;)
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Hopefully...
 
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gramps said:
Do you think it will be more of a problem in Indonesia now then?
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I don't think it will change a thing.

I am vehemently against the death penalty, but like many others on here, I won't shed a tear for those executed.

I also vehemently believe that the vast majority of drugs problems in this country are caused by the illegality of the drugs and the crime that goes along with it.
 
Does anyone think that legalising the drugs would curtail some of the criminality in the trade?

UK I mean.
 
fracster said:
Does anyone think that legalising the drugs would curtail some of the criminality in the trade?

UK I mean.
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No, the focus would be elsewhere, people trafficking, slavery, sex trade etc etc, all of which is happening as it is but it'd get worse imo. Organised crime ain't gonna stop because one market bottoms out.
 
BRASH said:
No, the focus would be elsewhere, people trafficking, slavery, sex trade etc etc, all of which is happening as it is but it'd get worse imo. Organised crime ain't gonna stop because one market bottoms out.
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Exactly, the problem is here and is not going to go away. As an example, would you accept that selling cannabis,in a controlled way rather like alcohol, would take some of the criminality away from that particular drug?
 
fracster said:
Does anyone think that legalising the drugs would curtail some of the criminality in the trade?

UK I mean.
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Absolutely, why would someone buy their pot from some dodgy steroid freak in the a**e end of town when they can get it in Tescos?

The problem is how would you distribute the harder drugs. The goal would have to be total eradication of the illegal drug networks, so that means every adult should be able to buy drugs when they want. The problem of this is imagining your son / daughter being able to do this. But then you should accept the fact that it is likely they can already but have the moral compass not to stick a needle in their arm. Not an easy solution.
 
fracster said:
Exactly, the problem is here and is not going to go away. As an example, would you accept that selling cannabis,in a controlled way rather like alcohol, would take some of the criminality away from that particular drug?
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I don't think Cannabis is a good example really as the crimes associated with heroin and crack are far greater than those related to cannabis (if any, other than the actual drugs offences).

You should know, you've smoked more than I ever have or at least you go about in such a bloody stupor all the time like yer stoned.:)
 
Rapscallion said:
Absolutely, why would someone buy their pot from some dodgy steroid freak in the a**e end of town when they can get it in Tescos?
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the same reason they buy fags and booze on the cheep .... because it's cheeper
 
I have been to Indonesia many time,the 1st time i landed at an Indonesia airport their was an big banner,you cant help but spot it which said Drug smuggling mean Death.

They knew the risks,both had made many trips before their were caught,to me its as simple as that.
 
ST4 said:
I wouldn't call for it for a painful way, but I would include repeat class A drug use offenders, class A drug dealers, GBH and ABH, all sex related crimes and murder/attempted murder into the death penalty range of sentencing
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Things have been going downhill since the end of the bloody code haven't they?
 
new2me said:
the same reason they buy fags and booze on the cheep .... because it's cheeper
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Fair point, but what percentage of alcohol and cigarettes is bought illegally for criminal networks? The only cigarettes I have seen offered have been from friends who have traveled abroad, and I don't recall ever been offered alcohol on the cheap.
 
Phil V said:
That really. :agree:

Anyone who sees the death penalty as a 'deterrent' should spend an evening studying the murder statistics for the good ol US of A :banghead:
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Is 'Less than the number of suicides by firearm' the answer?
 
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