Invoicing them for failed performance

artona

artona

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All the problems reported with The Royal Mail and the item I purchased from Eddie of TP arrived within 24 hours. Not so with the courior firms though.

We placed two orders on Friday for items we needed for delivery Saturday. We paid the extra fee and our suppliers did everything required of them.

Item one was delivered to an address that sounded similar to ours but in effect was 10 miles way. Their duty manager informed us today that the driver did not know the area and probably did not look at the address carefully enough.

Item 2 was just, well it just wasn't delivered, they did not bother. The firms delivery driver informed us this morning it happens every week.

So each supplier, even though they did everything correctly have been invoiced for £300 each for failed delivery with a nice note saying they would be given time to claim the compensation from their delivery companies


stew
 
The last line makes you come across as a bit of a **** really - why blame your Supplier for a Courier problem?

BTW I suggest you read up on "time of the essense" wrt England contract law.

I find Couriers a pain in the bum but honestly.. if you needed it that urgently you should plan ahead and get deliveries ahead of time, not send out random invoices for pie-in-the-sky amounts :)
 
Don't hold out much hope you will get anything...........I would plan much further ahead than this to insure delivery on time.

Lesson learnt there me thinks.
 
artona said:
So each supplier, even though they did everything correctly have been invoiced for £300 each for failed delivery with a nice note saying they would be given time to claim the compensation from their delivery companies.
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Was that part of your original contract with your suppliers? If not, then they do not have to pay it. You cannot change the terms of a contract once it has been entered into.


Steve.
 
puddleduck said:
why blame your Supplier for a Courier problem?
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Couriers contract is with the supplier, not the person being delivered to. I took his message to the supplier to read as "Hey, I know it's not your problem, so I'm willing to give you time to recover the money from the couriers".
 
Steve Smith said:
Was that part of your original contract with your suppliers? If not, then they do not have to pay it. You cannot change the terms of a contract once it has been entered into.


Steve.
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Aye, best you'll get is your delivery fee back, and maybe a (nominal) amount they write into their terms as compensation.
 
Jim.R said:
Couriers contract is with the supplier, not the person being delivered to.
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Whilst this is true, there will be a contract between the customer and supplier which will include shipping. The contract between the supplier and the sub-contracted courier is a separate issue.

For this reason, I never buy anything on ebay from a seller who states "I cannot be held responsible if the item gets lost in the post" as this is wrong. It may not be the seller's fault but it is their responsibility.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
Whilst this is true, there will be a contract between the customer and supplier which will include shipping. The contract between the supplier and the sub-contracted courier is a separate issue.

For this reason, I never buy anything on ebay from a seller who states "I cannot be held responsible if the item gets lost in the post" as this is wrong. It may not be the seller's fault but it is their responsibility.

Steve.
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That was what I was getting at, which is why the OP is invoicing the supplier, but giving the supplier time to claim off the courier (as he appreciates the problem is of the couriers making, not the suppliers).

I think. Or I may have had too much wine and got that completely the wrong way around!! :bonk:
 
I agree that the delivery failure is the supplier's responsibility but if this £300 'fine' for failed delivery was not part of the contract then it cannot be upheld.

I also suspect that the suppliers have something to protect themselves in the small print of their terms and conditions to limit their liability.


Steve.
 
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The materials were ordered for a rush job commisioned thursday evening. The amounts are not a fine, they are a fee to cover additional expenses occured.

Jim you are totally correct, its the way I see it and the way one of the courior firms suggested we do things. To be fair to both courior firms they realise they have failed to execute their task and our invoices will not be a surprise to them.

To be fair to the courior firms I don't actually blame them, I blame the shoddy delivery drivers who were working that day. But of course its the firms who employ them. Neither are the drivers who call here regularly and do a sterling job usually

stew
 
I had a large parcel coming from HK last week, it arrived into the hands of Parcelfarce for their "Express 48" delivery service and turned up here a week (and several phone calls to the managing director of Parcelforce) later :thumbs:

This was only narrowly beaten by the Royal Mail themselves, when the postman left a box with £1000 worth of stuff in it inside the wheelie bin - on the day before the bins are collected :bang:

It's entertaning, if nothing else.
 
I have to say, having extensive dealings with carriers over the years, if you sent me an invoice for £300, you would get the invoice back, and a credit note for the failed delivery charge, carriers wont pay me £300, at best the money back + a small amount of compo.
 
matty said:
I have to say, having extensive dealings with carriers over the years, if you sent me an invoice for £300, you would get the invoice back, and a credit note for the failed delivery charge, carriers wont pay me £300, at best the money back + a small amount of compo.
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Thats fine Matty. Its upto me then to decide on what action I want to take. It might go to court.

A few years ago I sent 10 framed photographs via the post. They broke the glass in all of them. On the Monday they told me I would get no compensation. Five days later the same person handed me a cheque for £400.

stew

ps I wonder if the courior firms would want it to go to court. If I was lucky and won would others claim?
 
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artona said:
ps I wonder if the courior firms would want it to go to court. If I was lucky and won would others claim?
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but if you lost, how much would the court costs, cost you etc?
 
artona said:
Thats fine Matty. Its upto me then to decide on what action I want to take. It might go to court.

A few years ago I sent 10 framed photographs via the post. They broke the glass in all of them. On the Monday they told me I would get no compensation. Five days later the same person handed me a cheque for £400.

stew

ps I wonder if the courior firms would want it to go to court. If I was lucky and won would others claim?
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I seriously doubt you will get £300 out of the person sending. Ive sent and received and the best ive ever managed was double the sending fee. Small print may say they dont guarentee next day delivery on a saturday, you'd be hard pressed to get it then.
 
artona said:
Hi

So each supplier, even though they did everything correctly have been invoiced for £300 each for failed delivery with a nice note saying they would be given time to claim the compensation from their delivery companies


stew
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Sorry mate :) But you are really living in a dream world if you think they owe you £300 :shrug: can you explain how you lost £300 from each of the suppliers? You can only claim for an actual proveable loss! and as you have already said "They did everything correctly" ...
 
I don't understand this thread. From what I can make out, you ordered a product from somewhere (you do not detail what or who so we can only assume a "normal" business situation of you bought, they ship) and then the couriers they use do not deliver on the Saturday for which you paid extra for. I think I missed the part where this entitles you to anything more than an apology and potentially a partial or full refund of the courier costs. Where/why did you pluck £300 from thin air? You may as well make it a grand...where do you stop. You need to direct your complaint to the courier company surely?
 
I will tell you what I find difficult to understand. A few weeks a go there was a long thread about a photographer who had messed up someone's wedding and he was lambasted. Now I totally agree with that.

Now here we have a straightforward delivery job. I order from A who uses delivery company B. A agrees to deliver on Saturday and they assign B to deliver. Both companies take payment and I pay so I have kept my part of the bargain. There is over £1000 worth of material. Company A makes the agreement with B and so it is there legal arrangement. But B does not deliver, they admit they did not even read the address correctly and gave the goods to someone completely different.

In the second example the delivery company does not even bother to try to deliver. SO in the case of the wedding photographer what if he had turned up at the wrong wedding or had not even bothered to turn up?

SO meanwhile I have been in hte studio since 6am to ensure I am there if a courior turns up really early. I have three members of staff, brought in on double pay on a saturday from 9am to complete the job.

Finally at 12noon I send them home because its at that point we know the parcels are not coming. Do I then turn around to the staff and say sorry guys you will not get paid today as you have not done the work.

I then drive a 300 mile trip on saturday afternoon to a mates business to get the materials on loan so that I can work from 4am through to 8pm on Sunday so that I can complete what I agree to do.

So due to the courior's negligence a carefully planned job was totally messed up but due to my professionalism I did not let anyone down.

Finally no invoices are being sent out without careful explanation. How do you think my suppliers feel. They did everything right but were let down (probably yet again) by couriors. My suppliers are looking forward to receiving my invoices so they can then discuss this on-going scenario with their delivery companies.

stew
 
matty said:
I seriously doubt you will get £300 out of the person sending. Ive sent and received and the best ive ever managed was double the sending fee. Small print may say they dont guarentee next day delivery on a saturday, you'd be hard pressed to get it then.
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small print / disclaimers do not guarentee protection Matty. Could a professional photographer have small print somewhere saying photographs maybe out of focus / too dark / too light etc etc. Of course they couldn't, well they could but it would not stand up.

In my case if the couriors van had been involved in an accident, or other such event beyond normal control then thats understandable, and obviously regrettable. But to delvier to a completely wrong person and to not bother I cannot see any court accepting small print.

Of course that is why it will probably not have to go to court

stew
 
clicktor said:
Where/why did you pluck £300 from thin air? You may as well make it a grand...where do you stop. You need to direct your complaint to the courier company surely?
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No. The complaint does need to go to the supplier because the contract is between the customer and the supplier. Generally a courier will not discuss things with the customer as the contract fort delivery is not with them.

As for the £300. Unless there is a non delivery clause in the contract which allows this payment then they do not have to pay it. An invoice is not the correct way to do it. Suing for damages would be.


Steve.
 
Why did you leave it so late to order? Personally, for any work related stuff I would order at least 2 weeks in advanced (where possible) especially during a postal strike, as all the other couriers would be busy with extra business.

Was it a late notice job or poor planning on your part in that respect?

I do think you deserve compensation, for the amount you had to spend sorting out their **** up - did you break down the costs to them? or just say "You now owe me £300"?

James

Edit: Just seen the post above. I agree suing would've been the best route to go. With an invoice they might laugh it all the way to the bin, if you attempt to sue them they are likely to just wack you a settlement quickly. In our experience anyway.
 
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Well for what it's worth I think artona has a case.

artona, I think you are quite right in sending the invoice and good on you for goimg the extra mile!

ps

when you get the £300, buy a dictionary, it's 'courier' :D
 
Jamesbuk said:
Why did you leave it so late to order? Personally, for any work related stuff I would order at least 2 weeks in advanced (where possible) especially during a postal strike, as all the other couriers would be busy with extra business.

Was it a late notice job or poor planning on your part in that respect?

I do think you deserve compensation, for the amount you had to spend sorting out their **** up - did you break down the costs to them? or just say "You now owe me £300"?

James

Edit: Just seen the post above. I agree suing would've been the best route to go. With an invoice they might laugh it all the way to the bin, if you attempt to sue them they are likely to just wack you a settlement quickly. In our experience anyway.
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Hi James

I thought somewhere earlier I had mentioned it was a job that came in thursday evening on a basis of "Is it possible to get done for Monday?" hence the late - or as it happens at "the earliest posssible moment" in this case ordering.

stew
 
Ok, fair enough. I think theres definitely a case of compensation. It seems both deliveries were late/not delivered through incompetence not any other fault so it will be interesting to see the outcome.

James
 
Jamesbuk said:
Ok, fair enough. I think theres definitely a case of compensation.
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I think there is a case for compensation too, just not via the invoicing route.

I would contact the suppliers initially by phone and backed up by letter first then consider suing for damages. Although for £300 per case, I would question if it was worth the bother.

However. I believe there is another aspect to this which you have not made fully clear. I think your suppliers want these invoices to use as ammunition to go back and 'beat up' their couriers. You mentioned it in passing but I get the impression that it is a bit more important than that.


Steve.
 
admirable said:
Well for what it's worth I think artona has a case.

artona, I think you are quite right in sending the invoice and good on you for goimg the extra mile!

ps

when you get the £300, buy a dictionary, it's 'courier' :D
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I agree. It's because everyone accepts the crap service, that we end up with services getting worse and worse.

Steve Smith said:
As for the £300. Unless there is a non delivery clause in the contract which allows this payment then they do not have to pay it. An invoice is not the correct way to do it. Suing for damages would be.
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Not sure i agree, Suing straight of the bat is a bit of a jump in my view, maybe im too nice but i would go with...
Phone calls to all parties... as Stew did.
Invoice to correct party... as Stew did.
Notice of intent... let them know court action is in process, with some document of proof (small claims court forms or solicitors letter :rules:).
Legal action... small claim or the like.

Thats what i would do anyway :shrug:
 
I would be prepared to bet that the couriers T&C specifically deny responsibility for consequential loss.

If their lawyer is any good then I doubt if they actually committed to do anything other than accept the parcel and think about delivery.

The comparison with the wedding tog is spurious. A comparison against a photo booth would be more like.

If something really, really needs delivery then you can contract a real courier (rather than one of the delivery businesses) but don't be surprised at the costs.
 
I personally fail to see the problem here.

If you pay someone in advance to do something for you, and they don't do it, you want your money back, surely?

If, by them not doing what you have paid them to do, you are caused direct additional expense, you would expect them to pay for that too, wouldn't you?

Seems only fair to me.

It's those of us who roll over and take it with a shrug of the shoulders that are the real problem IMO.
 
Simmotino said:
If, by them not doing what you have paid them to do, you are caused direct additional expense, you would expect them to pay for that too, wouldn't you?
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It may well be expected and seem reasonable but in reality, things are bound by the terms of the contract and the customer's terms and conditions and/or conditions of sale.


Steve.
 
Steve Smith said:
It may well be expected and seem reasonable but in reality, things are bound by the terms of the contract and the customer's terms and conditions and/or conditions of sale.


Steve.
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I know it's all about the contract, sure.

My point was more at the reaction of some in the thread that compensation should be sought rather than the actual legality of it.
 
artona said:
I will tell you what I find difficult to understand. A few weeks a go there was a long thread about a photographer who had messed up someone's wedding and he was lambasted. Now I totally agree with that.

Now here we have a straightforward delivery job. I order from A who uses delivery company B. A agrees to deliver on Saturday and they assign B to deliver. Both companies take payment and I pay so I have kept my part of the bargain. There is over £1000 worth of material. Company A makes the agreement with B and so it is there legal arrangement. But B does not deliver, they admit they did not even read the address correctly and gave the goods to someone completely different.

In the second example the delivery company does not even bother to try to deliver. SO in the case of the wedding photographer what if he had turned up at the wrong wedding or had not even bothered to turn up?

SO meanwhile I have been in hte studio since 6am to ensure I am there if a courior turns up really early. I have three members of staff, brought in on double pay on a saturday from 9am to complete the job.

Finally at 12noon I send them home because its at that point we know the parcels are not coming. Do I then turn around to the staff and say sorry guys you will not get paid today as you have not done the work.

I then drive a 300 mile trip on saturday afternoon to a mates business to get the materials on loan so that I can work from 4am through to 8pm on Sunday so that I can complete what I agree to do.

So due to the courior's negligence a carefully planned job was totally messed up but due to my professionalism I did not let anyone down.

Finally no invoices are being sent out without careful explanation. How do you think my suppliers feel. They did everything right but were let down (probably yet again) by couriors. My suppliers are looking forward to receiving my invoices so they can then discuss this on-going scenario with their delivery companies.

stew
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My heart bleeds. You talk about professionalism, but you are the one that effectively gambles on the fact that the materials will arrive in time for everything you have riding on it including people getting paid. Sorry but that was a risk you took. I don't order a suitcase off of ebay on a Friday to arrive Saturday morning so I can go on holiday to a foreign island to get married, and then when it doesn't arrive sue them for the cost of the wedding. Whilst I can see the frustration, you are completely unrealistic with your demands.
 
artona said:
To be fair to the courior firms I don't actually blame them, I blame the shoddy delivery drivers who were working that day.
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Not always the drivers fault as im sure you know. Most of the failed deliveries
are down to customers who delay drivers for whatever reasons preventing
them from getting to the next drop on time.

Some drivers will know that they are not going to get some deliveries done
which is why they never bother.

The amount of times & I have seen drivers arguing with delivery planning staff
about the amount of drops/delivery order they are expected to cover in a single
day is un-believable. The driver is the person the customer sees & they know
they are going to get it in the neck when the goods finally reach the customer.
 
clicktor said:
My heart bleeds. You talk about professionalism, but you are the one that effectively gambles on the fact that the materials will arrive in time for everything you have riding on it including people getting paid. Sorry but that was a risk you took. I don't order a suitcase off of ebay on a Friday to arrive Saturday morning so I can go on holiday to a foreign island to get married, and then when it doesn't arrive sue them for the cost of the wedding. Whilst I can see the frustration, you are completely unrealistic with your demands.
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No, those are the sort of things you have the opportunity to PLAN IN ADVANCE. Pick a more realistic comparison - maybe one in the world of business where stuff does have to happen that quick and suppliers do have to be relied upon to deliver.

OP agreed to do a job knowing the timescale would be tight but put all the measures in place to meet that timescale. If a company says they can deliver on a saturday then why on earth is that considered a gamble - are you saying it is OK for companies to offer a service that they many not be able to provide? No, thought not.
 
"are you saying it is OK for companies to offer a service that they may not be able to provide?"


TBH, that's exactly what the OP did. It's an unfortunate fact of modern life that deliveries get delayed for all sorts of reasons and relying on 2 different companies to be able to deliver on a Saturday was rather optomistic IMO. If I HAD to have something by Monday morning and only found out on Friday that I needed it, I would bite the bullet and buy whatever I needed locally - probably adding a bit to the quoted price for the job to cover extra expense.
 
The difference here Nod being, as far as I can gather from the thread so far, the OP offered and fulfilled his services as promised.

The supplier/courier didn't.
 
you have no chance of getting any compensation.
 
Simmotino said:
The difference here Nod being, as far as I can gather from the thread so far, the OP offered and fulfilled his services as promised.

The supplier/courier didn't.
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Very true, by (to quote him) "I then drive a 300 mile trip on saturday afternoon to a mates business to get the materials on loan so that I can work from 4am through to 8pm on Sunday so that I can complete what I agree to do."

Fortunate that he had a mate who 1) had the kit he needed to borrow and 2) was willing to loan it to him. When he took the job on, he didn't have the kit needed and very possibly didn't know if he could get it there on time.
 
Nod said:
Fortunate that he had a mate who 1) had the kit he needed to borrow and 2) was willing to loan it to him. When he took the job on, he didn't have the kit needed and very possibly didn't know if he could get it there on time.
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That is the whole point though isn't it? He knew that suppliers offered a guaranteed Saturday delivery, so was confident in being able to deliver (excuse the pun).

It is the failure of the delivery company that led to the need for the additional effort on his part. If the couriers had extended the same courtesy, it wouldn't have been needed.
 
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