Invoicing for unauthorised image use on an xmas card?

GoNz0 said:
if i was the breeder and got a bill i would send one for back for 5 times the price via a legal firm for using the cat as a model. tread carefully or you could wind up with this backfiring.
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LOL - that's just so much rubbish!
 
GoNz0 said:
if i was the breeder and got a bill i would send one for back for 5 times the price via a legal firm for using the cat as a model. tread carefully or you could wind up with this backfiring.
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OK, this is getting stupid, unless I am mistaken the breeder no longer owns the ****ing cat.

I am out, in fact I am about done with this forum to be honest.
 
awp said:
and a third party - the breeder - stole the picture and used it without authorisation - straightforward.

The photographer own the copyright unless they specifically sign it away - the breeder in this case does NOT own the copyright. Now you're just chucking up red herrings that have nothing to do with the original problem - which is theft of an image.
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Correct, but in this case i doubt the OP spelt out copyright terms at the start. All of my clients are aware (its in my T&Cs) that I retain all copyright for all products other than CD images, where they get copyright. As I have said before, I bet the majority of Joe Public has no idea about copyright - not that ignorance of the law is a legal defence - but very few of us are legal experts and I am sure that even you AWP have broken the law unintentionally before.
 
Who's Facebook page did the breeder take the picture from - yours or the owners?
 
lol :-) try get them to put your logo in the card,. with a web addy see if you can get some work that way :-) just an idea
 
I am with Ian on this.

This type of thing is something that this forum bugs me on. Some people do not have a clue and do not want to be educated or advised by those who do. I have said it a million times before, and banged my head up against a wall over and over again. It is not worth it Ian, some will never get the point of why it is wrong to give images that are used for commercial gain.

Please read my blog post on this. You are being taken advantage of, and many never know it and even worse endorse it.

http://www.carlspring.net/other/if-youre-good-at-something-never-do-it-for-free
 
dseered said:
I rest my case - read the bloody thread !
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Ooooo someones got your knickers in a twist haven't they?! :lol:

Personally I'd rather not get a reputation and just let one slip. If this had been a different situation then I'd argue against.

Now come on, carry on your pointless internet rant. :p
 
grey.squirrel said:
Ooooo someones got your knickers in a twist haven't they?! :lol:

Personally I'd rather not get a reputation and just let one slip. If this had been a different situation then I'd argue against.

Now come on, carry on your pointless internet rant. :p
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I will bite as I am bored, what reputation could you get? I never get this?
 
Do you like cats? If so, rock up at the dealers and pick one up, then laugh when he asks you to pay and walk offwith your free cat.

At the end of the day it's what - 100 xmas cards, it's not the end of the world.
On the flip side, it is the principle.

Work out what you want out of it, whether its cash, an apology, or some other business opportunity. The get on the blower and ask him for it.

give the dealer a call. Say your flattered, but really he has stolen the image. Say that you are disspointed that he didn't try to find out who had taken the shot, as youwould have been able to provide a better quality shot, and even have done the artwork for them All you would have asked for is to have been given a full credit on the back so that his customers would be aware of the quality of your work, and it may have generated some business for you.

I would ask him to sort you out with a mailer to all the people he sent the card to, a big link on his facebook page and a pint.

DOn't forget the better his cats look, the more he can sell them for, so you are an important part of his business going forward if you play it right.
 
Send them a bill for £50 and tell them you'll discount that amount from any future orders.
 
ding76uk said:
I am with Ian on this.

This type of thing is something that this forum bugs me on. Some people do not have a clue and do not want to be educated or advised by those who do. I have said it a million times before, and banged my head up against a wall over and over again. It is not worth it Ian, some will never get the point of why it is wrong to give images that are used for commercial gain.

Please read my blog post on this. You are being taken advantage of, and many never know it and even worse endorse it.

http://www.carlspring.net/other/if-youre-good-at-something-never-do-it-for-free
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Your opinion and that's fine, Doesn't make it right though !
 
Splog said:
Your opinion and that's fine, Doesn't make it right though !
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You are being used by someone for their personal gain!

Other people use your work to make money for themselves and give you nothing!

Copyright infringement is, and that is what this amounts to, is easy to prove and therefore the guy using the images broke the law!

These are facts Splog

I love the way so many of you love giving your work away for free. There must be a lot of rich people on here. Not wanting to get paid when it is within your rights to do so seems stupid.

No point discussing this, as it is pointless trying to converse with those who do not want to listen.

What is your take on things like this Splog? You like giving away your images?
 
This is not meant to be a dig at the OP, but...

If you want to earn money out of photography, make sure you set up prices and T&Cs at the start. This may have prevented the episode, or at least given you a cast iron case. What would your defence had been, had you trodden on the cat and the owner made you pay for vets bills? Do you have insurance, or would you just say its for fun? Cant have it both ways...

Carl, agree with you in principle, but the OP gave the images away in the first place, so do they have a value?
 
I am going, for a short time anyway, to do free shoots from next spring. I wouldn't expect however, that a third party would use any pics for their business, and even those I'd shoot for it would only be for personal and not commercial use.

Ian: Stay, just realise this is a very large forum, and you will get people doing things you don't like, dis-agreeing with you etc. etc...Even though you may be right! :) Your contributions here are valued by many I suspect, and by contributing you give a different perspective from those who have opposite thoughts, and from that viewers/lurkers or whatever can make their own minds up. :thumbs:
 
cambsno said:
This is not meant to be a dig at the OP, but...

If you want to earn money out of photography, make sure you set up prices and T&Cs at the start. This may have prevented the episode, or at least given you a cast iron case. What would your defence had been, had you trodden on the cat and the owner made you pay for vets bills? Do you have insurance, or would you just say its for fun? Cant have it both ways...

Carl, agree with you in principle, but the OP gave the images away in the first place, so do they have a value?
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Perhaps he valued their friendship?
 
NigelPaul said:
Perhaps he valued their friendship?
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Nothing wrong in that bit thats the danger in not doing things 'properly'. I say that, as I have done kids shoots for friends for free, and given them copyright, so if they go on and be the next M&S model, maybe I have lost out?
 
I hope you bill them, they are basically using your image to advertise a business. Am i right in saying they bread the cat, sold it to your friend and you took a photo of it which they felt was good enough to use for a Christmas card?

They then go onto steal the image from the Internet and use it on a card. The reason they want that image is because it was one of their cats right, IE a product they sell, to make money.

You should for sure bill them
 
cambsno said:
Nothing wrong in that bit thats the danger in not doing things 'properly'. I say that, as I have done kids shoots for friends for free, and given them copyright, so if they go on and be the next M&S model, maybe I have lost out?
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Given away copyright is a lot different then giving someone an image to print for personal use. Perhaps this is the mis-understanding of the OP's friend and breeder? :shrug:
 
NigelPaul said:
Given away copyright is a lot different then giving someone an image to print for personal use. Perhaps this is the mis-understanding of the OP's friend and breeder? :shrug:
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But did the OP specify it was just for personal use?
 
chip said:
No they didn't! If you read the post above, the cat OWNERS, (who were given the photo), did NOT know the breeder had lifted the image from Facebook and used it on the Christmas card.

The breeder has been naughty but has indicated there may be some paid work in the future (yeah right, that old chestnut). I think you would be within your rights to ask for some sort of payment...... but personally I wouldn't bother.

I would however, drop the breeder a note letting them know any further use of ANY of your images, including repeat use of this one, will be chargeable.
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I agree with this. It's probably not worth the bother of trying to do too much about it, though informing him that what he has done is wrong, and that in future you will not be disregarding it like this time, would be a good idea.
 
cambsno said:
But did the OP specify it was just for personal use?
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I see your point, but did he say they are for commercial use? Probably didn't do either. But he gave the prints to his neighbours where he value their freindship and not to the breeder, who he probably don't even know. :shrug:

I agree though, if you are going to give images away, wheather they are paid for or free, it is wise to have some T&C's in place. Lesson learnt!?
 
Wow heated debate or what, this is what I like about forums.

I have learnt a lot about doing work for free and chargeing for it over the last or so years being self employed as an IT engineer. Doing it for free does devalue what I do, I often do work for freinds and a few of my customers have become freinds but the line is always there, call me out for an IT problem and you will receive a bill for my time, this is my work and its how I earn a living. Those people I did work for free in the past as they were freinds sort of expect me to go round and fix their PC or what ever for free years down the line it is very difficult to ask them for money as I originally devalued my work.

This one the images were done for a friend/neighbough as a bit of fun and for their personal use, if they had used them in their own personal christmas card great and thanks for the recognition that you like my photo.

The problem arrises as the image was used for comercial reasons by someone who makes money from breeding cats to promote their business, there is no other reason that a company gets christmas cards printed other than to remind you that they are still around and trading as a business in the hope you remember them next time you need their product. The cat breeder has seen the image on facebook and used it for the card probably the cat came from the breeder as that maybe why they are freinds on facebook. The breeder is in the wrong just using photos off the web.

The photographer gave a free usage licence to the neighbough, if you hand over printed terms and conditions every time you give an image/print to friends then you will get some strange looks nevermind getting them to sign somthing to accept the image. I would send the breeder an invoice for the unauthorised use of your image, never do somthing on the promise or possibility of paid work in the future it rarely comes.
 
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SarahLee said:
In what way has the breeder used the image?

Are they are friend of your neighbour who's just stumbled across the photo on Facebook and taken it to make a one-off personal card for them?

or

Are they using the photo as part of a commercial run of cards to advertise their services to existing and prospective customers?

I know you may not have a definitive answer to that, but the feel and the content of the card should give you a clue. My reaction would be completely different depending on which of the 2 scenarios it was.
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Probably the best post in the thread, without the answer to which all the other arguements put forward with regard to usage or payment are meaningless.

It's also ironic that here we have a thread full of pro photographers advising an amateur to raise an invoice for the use of one of their pics. If said amateur had asked advice about what to charge before taking the pic in question quite a few of those self-same pros would be up in arms about a hobbyist stealing work from those who earn their living from photography.....
 
Flash In The Pan said:
Probably the best post in the thread, without the answer to which all the other arguements put forward with regard to usage or payment are meaningless.

It's also ironic that here we have a thread full of pro photographers advising an amateur to raise an invoice for the use of one of their pics. If said amateur had asked advice about what to charge before taking the pic in question quite a few of those self-same pros would be up in arms about a hobbyist stealing work from those who earn their living from photography.....
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Pretty much exactly what I was going to post. :thumbs:

I do wonder how all the people recommending to never do anything for free or even cheap got a start in photography - you were just instantly so good that you felt comfortable charging full commercial rates?
 
Flash In The Pan said:
It's also ironic that here we have a thread full of pro photographers advising an amateur to raise an invoice for the use of one of their pics. If said amateur had asked advice about what to charge before taking the pic in question quite a few of those self-same pros would be up in arms about a hobbyist stealing work from those who earn their living from photography.....
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not true on both accounts.. I am a pro and i suggested going and seeing them.. and I only suggested that because the situatiuon is obviously bothering him.. I also suggested not to turn up with an invoice..

As for your other snidey remark theres lots of people asking for one off charge advice in the talk business section and they get good advice..

You may ahve a poor opinion of pro photographer but I would thank you not to attack all of us with the same brush as its insulting to some :(
 
I see this as being pretty straight forward.

The photo of the cat was given FREE to the cat's owner, which they put up on Facebook.

A cat breeder (a business) decides to copy said photo and use it for the base of their (business) Christmas cards.

1) Copyright has been infringed.
2) No matter what the value of the original image, it is a case of principal.. The breeder needs to understand that what they did was illegal.

Personally I would contact the breeder and inform them of the situation and tell them that they are lucky that you intend not to take it further & leave it at that. Next time charge them.

I'm not a professional, but everybody needs to understand what is at stake here. You cannot go around copying what images you like from the web and use them yourself without having a licence to do so. Otherwise the value of photographs will keep on going down.

Steve
 
Personal I see it as free advertising for you. Its going around there friends and family so I would say its "personal" use as it certainly isn't commercial. If it really is a good image of a cat jumping then I imagine that when there friends and family need a photographer then they may well ask who took the picture of the cat?
 
ding76uk said:
You are being used by someone for their personal gain!

Other people use your work to make money for themselves and give you nothing!

Copyright infringement is, and that is what this amounts to, is easy to prove and therefore the guy using the images broke the law!

These are facts Splog

I love the way so many of you love giving your work away for free. There must be a lot of rich people on here. Not wanting to get paid when it is within your rights to do so seems stupid.

No point discussing this, as it is pointless trying to converse with those who do not want to listen.

What is your take on things like this Splog? You like giving away your images?
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You're making a lot of assumptions here. What you Can't understand is that if someone takes a shot for pleasure they may get a lot of pleasure seeing it in print.
 
stu_the_flat said:
Personal I see it as free advertising for you. Its going around there friends and family so I would say its "personal" use as it certainly isn't commercial. If it really is a good image of a cat jumping then I imagine that when there friends and family need a photographer then they may well ask who took the picture of the cat?
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How is it free advertising when the image was lifted and put on a christmas card by a third party? The breeder didn't even contact the photographer and chances are if they were asked then they would not remember where it came from.

Aside from this, a photo credit rarely makes for advertising as it just says who took the photograph - nothing about their services. A few years ago I did a 1000 run calender and also had a cover of a 10k run booklet (Both for charity and they insisted I got credit/weblink etc in the print run). FOr quite a large circulation into quite a niche charity area I got the sum total of zero business from it. I'm told this is the norm rather than an exception - although I would welcome views from anyone with experience to refute this.
 
Splog said:
You're making a lot of assumptions here. What you Can't understand is that if someone takes a shot for pleasure they may get a lot of pleasure seeing it in print.
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And what can't you understand is that somebody (the breeder) has got free use of an image for which they have no right to use. It's not always about money, it's about the principal. That shot could have cost the copyright owner a few hundred quid to get set up, if it were me I'd be rather hacked off.

A few years ago I used to run a biking based website and somebody took an image off of it and started selling T shirts with said mage on the actual site. He couldn't understand what he did wrong either. There's just no educating some people.

JUST BECAUSE AN IMAGE IS ON THE INTERNET DOESN'T MEAN ALL & SUNDRY HAVE BEEN GRANTED A FREE LICENCE TO USE IT TO MAKE MONITORY GAIN.

Steve
 
Splog said:
You're making a lot of assumptions here. What you Can't understand is that if someone takes a shot for pleasure they may get a lot of pleasure seeing it in print.
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Where am I making assumptions? Facts are what I posted Splog. A business used an image for their gain, paying nothing for it, and they did not ask to use the image.

I am not a pro, but also if people want to use my work then I need to get something out of it, whether that be payment, or something else. No free lunch. I do photos for friends all the time.

Copyright has to be specifically given away with an image, not assumed. Even to friends, unless you specify that you are transferring rights then you are not doing so. You are essentially licensing an image to them.

cambsno said:
Nothing wrong in that bit thats the danger in not doing things 'properly'. I say that, as I have done kids shoots for friends for free, and given them copyright, so if they go on and be the next M&S model, maybe I have lost out?
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Wht if M&S used the image you gave your friends as the advert for their entire children's clothing range? They didn't ask you, they just took it from facebook. They are making money using your image. You don't even get a credit. Would you be OK with it then?

Just because it is a small company doesn't mean they are not using you in exactly the same way as the example above.

Also those asking for a name check as it is great promotion. I mean no offence, but that is a hook used by companies to take advantage of the naive. The chance of getting any work from a credit are nil.
 
Jelster said:
And what can't you understand is that somebody (the breeder) has got free use of an image for which they have no right to use. It's not always about money, it's about the principal. That shot could have cost the copyright owner a few hundred quid to get set up, if it were me I'd be rather hacked off.

A few years ago I used to run a biking based website and somebody took an image off of it and started selling T shirts with said mage on the actual site. He couldn't understand what he did wrong either. There's just no educating some people.

JUST BECAUSE AN IMAGE IS ON THE INTERNET DOESN'T MEAN ALL & SUNDRY HAVE BEEN GRANTED A FREE LICENCE TO USE IT TO MAKE MONITORY GAIN.

Steve
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And what you don't understand is I only commented on giving away work, nothing to do with theft or copyright.
 
String said:
One question. Forgive me I'm new and I know its not really my business, but I'm interested.

Is the OP a professional photographer?
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no
 
KIPAX said:
not true on both accounts.. I am a pro and i suggested going and seeing them.. and I only suggested that because the situatiuon is obviously bothering him.. I also suggested not to turn up with an invoice..

As for your other snidey remark theres lots of people asking for one off charge advice in the talk business section and they get good advice..

You may ahve a poor opinion of pro photographer but I would thank you not to attack all of us with the same brush as its insulting to some :(
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Sorry, Tony but if you reread what I wrote I didn't say all of the pros were advising he raised an invoice, but you've obviously taken it that way.

I also take exception with your insinuation that my other observation was a snidey (sic) comment - it wasn't, it's a valid observation, some (one in particular) pros that have advised chasing the breeder for payment are the same ones that openly complain about amateurs who give their work away for free.
 
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Just my thought. This cat is going to appear on a Christmas card. By 12th night, most of them will be in the bin. I'd probably ring the breeder and make it known to them that you know they lifted the print from Facebook and that you are not very happy. Going to war (Court) over money is going to cost a lot of money and no legal aid will be available I suspect. The OP is not pro photographer and it seems stupid to go to war over it with the breeder and ultimately your neighbour for the sake of a christmas card
 
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