"Intelligent" Camera settings?

[Doca]

I've had my 1st DSLR (7D) for about 6 weeks. Although not completely new to photography as I've had a bridge camera for years, I've only tried to use manual settings as much as possible since having the 7D.

I think I am fine with manual settings as long as I have some time before the shot. I've mostly been taking pictures of my dog as it gives me regular time to get used to the camera. Obviously this is a moving target & the exposure settings required change quickly if she moves slightly in & out of the sun.

AV mode seems an obvious answer, however if I have ISO on auto I sometimes end up with a really high ISO that I don't think is any good or if I set a low ISO I can get a shutter speed that is too long & doesn't give a sharp image.

It seems like the camera is missing an "intelligent" mode, i.e fixed aperture, adjustable shutter speed & ISO but don't let the shutter speed go lower than 1/FL but otherwise keep the ISO as low as possible.

Is this possible in the existing camera settings? Is it a crazy idea or am I just lacking experience with the camera?

 

[lizzy23]

I don't think there is a setting that does that, and why don't you think the higher ISO ones are any good? personally if i'm shooting the dogs, i always have mine set to TV set the shutter speed high and adjust the ISO, i don't actually think the noise at higher ISO's on the 7D is that bad

for example this was shot in a dark wood on a moving subject at 800 ISO, F4 and a sutter speed of 320, and to me its totally acceptable, in fact the guy who owns the dog was thrilled with the A4 print i presented him with for allowing me to stalk him all day


_MG_0396 by jalizcazan, on Flickr

 

[TCR4x4]

Nikon have that setting in the Auto ISO settings, but canon dont Im afraid.
On my D700, I set auto ISO to say 1600, but I also tell it, I only want it to activate if the shutter speed drops below a certain speed, usualy 1/FL or if Im usuing a wide angle something like 1/10th.
I then use Av and set to what ever aperture I want and the camera deals with the shutter speed. As soon as the speed drops below the set point, it raises the ISO.

 

[Doca]

I don't think there is a setting that does that, and why don't you think the higher ISO ones are any good? personally if i'm shooting the dogs, i always have mine set to TV set the shutter speed high and adjust the ISO, i don't actually think the noise at higher ISO's on the 7D is that bad

for example this was shot in a dark wood on a moving subject at 800 ISO, F4 and a sutter speed of 320, and to me its totally acceptable, in fact the guy who owns the dog was thrilled with the A4 print i presented him with for allowing me to stalk him all day

I've not tried using Tv mode but I will give it a try. The reason I avoided Tv is my lens is F2.8 (70-200) & I'd kind of decided that F2.8 (which I guess the camera will automatically choose) would give a too narrow depth of field to have a good chance of the dog being in focus.

 

[lizzy23]

It should be fine, give it a go, the general rule of thumb with dogs its to focus on the eyes, the DOF at 2.8 shouldn't be that narrow, remember to set the drive to AI Servo and continual shooting if you're trying to get action shots, the main thing is to keep trying, its a massive jump from a bridge to the 7D, it was hard enough getting to grips with it going from a 40D where all the controls are basically the same.

This one was on My 40D at F1.8 @ 1600 iso now that is noisy, but just wanted to show the amount relatively in focus


_MG_0109 by jalizcazan, on Flickr

 

[tdodd]

I've not tried using Tv mode but I will give it a try. The reason I avoided Tv is my lens is F2.8 (70-200) & I'd kind of decided that F2.8 (which I guess the camera will automatically choose) would give a too narrow depth of field to have a good chance of the dog being in focus.

Here is a doggy shot with my 7D at f/2.0 and a couple at f/2.8. It certainly gives a shallow DOF and a very specific look, which I guess is personal taste, but it's certainly doable. These have all been cropped a little, but no other edits, although they might benefit from some tweaks.

f/2.0

f/2.8 (big crop on the third example)

 

[lizzy23]

That last one is brilliant, i haven't got a 2.8 lens so couldn't illustrate

 

[Doca]

Those shots are ace, obviously 2.8 is fine. Out of curiosity how many of that type of shot would you expect to to have in focus as you would like 8/10, 5/10?

A lot of what I've taken are not very sharp. Originally I put this down to the narrow DOF & just not getting the focus in the right place. Now I'm thinking that maybe the shutter speed wasn't fast enough.

 

[lizzy23]

I traded up to the 7d because i have 5 nutty spaniels who i love to take pictures of, i would say when i am shooting dogs, my keep rate is around 2 in 10, because they move so quickly, if you look on my flickr there are numerous sets that have the dogs in, i know the set i have on there in the snow i took over 200 to get the 46 that i'm reasonably happy with, just out of curiosity are you shooting in Raw?

 

[lizzy23]

if its any use to you and i don't profess to be an expert, but i think i get pretty good results, i'm only up the motorway from you in Wakefield, bring the dog/s up and we can meet at Temple Newsam we'll have a play, i can provide some of my gang for some fast moving shots

 

[Doca]

if its any use to you and i don't profess to be an expert, but i think i get pretty good results, i'm only up the motorway from you in Wakefield, bring the dog/s up and we can meet at Temple Newsam we'll have a play, i can provide some of my gang for some fast moving shots

Thanks for the offer, unfortunately my dog doesn't travel :|. I have got some good shots it's just my keep rate is not as heigh as I thought it should be & my dog doesn't even move that fast as she has arthritis. I'm going to have another go at the weekend & make double shore I have the shutter speed fast enough. If I'm still having trouble I might take you up on your offer & take some shots of yours.

 

[tdodd]

Those shots are ace, obviously 2.8 is fine. Out of curiosity how many of that type of shot would you expect to to have in focus as you would like 8/10, 5/10?

A lot of what I've taken are not very sharp. Originally I put this down to the narrow DOF & just not getting the focus in the right place. Now I'm thinking that maybe the shutter speed wasn't fast enough.

I don't know my keeper rate in terms of focus or anything else. Apart from the fact that I don't keep such stats, there are more reasons to junk a shot than just focus. The poise of the dog has to be right and there is no need for too many duplicates, then again sometimes the light just doesn't work quite right. One way or another the keeper rate is not that high when shooting fast moving dogs.

But as well as the focus and other things mentioned there is definitely also shutter speed and blur to consider. Generally I like to achieve a shutter speed of at least 1/1000. I've got a few successes at slower speeds, but you'll not be helping yourself by using slower speeds than that. Of course, light matters too. Flat light will reduce contrast, giving the AF a tougher job and also reducing the impression of sharpness, even if you nailed the shot.

I also think that practice makes perfect. If you want to shoot with shallow DOF then you need to track the dog's head/eyes/mouth very accurately. The bouncier your dog's gait the trickier to follow the bit you need to track. I usually prefer to use only a single AF point or possibly one point plus expansion. That's certainly the case for the shots above. When your DOF is only 6-12 inches it's not really enough to have the focus fall just randomly on the dog's outline. You need to focus on the head region.

FWIW I only shoot dogs (and most things, usually) with manual exposure and I choose the lighting conditions to make that practical. Certainly I prefer bright conditions to dull and overcast, for many reasons. I prefer the look, the AF works better and I can achieve higher shutter speeds without pushing the ISO too much. But it's not all about shooting at wide apertures. My favourite lens for shooting active dogs is my 100-400 and I'll stop that down to f/8 on occasion, which can still yield a fairly shallow DOF as this example illustrates....

EDIT : Oh, yes, I always shoot raw.

 

[redddraggon]

How about bumping the ISO to 800 or so and using some flash?

 

[tdodd]

I've only got three shots from around 400 where I've used flash on moving dogs. In these cases it was really only to add a bit of pop to the eyes in otherwise dreary conditions. The problem is that you're either limited to the sync speed of 1/250 if you want much power from the flash or if you use HSS (FP Flash) then the flash power drops off very quickly and becomes a weak continuous light source with no more stopping power than the shutter speed.

Here's one at f/1.4 (since shallow DOF is of interest)....

and a more conventional shot, although a bit of a fail regarding the flash....

 

[lizzy23]

Thanks for the offer, unfortunately my dog doesn't travel :|. I have got some good shots it's just my keep rate is not as heigh as I thought it should be & my dog doesn't even move that fast as she has arthritis. I'm going to have another go at the weekend & make double shore I have the shutter speed fast enough. If I'm still having trouble I might take you up on your offer & take some shots of yours.

I'm sure they'd be happy to oblige as fast moving subjects

 

[lizzy23]

FWIW I only shoot dogs (and most things, usually) with manual exposure and I choose the lighting conditions to make that practical. Certainly I prefer bright conditions to dull and overcast, for many reasons. I prefer the look, the AF works better and I can achieve higher shutter speeds without pushing the ISO too much. But it's not all about shooting at wide apertures. My favourite lens for shooting active dogs is my 100-400 and I'll stop that down to f/8 on occasion, which can still yield a fairly shallow DOF as this example illustrates....



EDIT : Oh, yes, I always shoot raw.

Can i ask how you manage this? i shoot everything but the dogs in manual these days, but i just don't seem to be able to focus properly quickly enough if that makes sense when they're running around.

To the OP yes shots are junked for more than just focus issues, main reason in my case is that they've gone out of shot because i'm still practicing with panning, i also tend to use a 70 - 300is because i don't want to be on top of them i like to catch them unawares much more natural, it isn't L glass by any stretch of the imagination but does the job

 

[tdodd]

I'm not sure I understand your question. How do I manage what?

Exposure is manual. Focus is AI Servo.

As I only have one dog there is no "running around" involved. Usually there is a tennis ball involved, either thrown by me or my partner, or the dog is being called. That means the dog is moving in a pretty straight line at a fairly constant speed. I position myself with the sun somewhere behind me, probably just over one shoulder, and make the effort to make sure the dog is moving in a direction that works with the light, so the dog is well lit from the front and there is light in the eyes. Eyes are pretty crucial to the whole thing. They need to be visible, sharp and full of life (light). So long as the eyes are sharp you can pretty much get away with murder on anything else as far as focus/DOF is concerned. If the eyes are invisible or soft then it would take something special to make it a keeper.

I wouldn't call tracking the dog easy, but I'm sure my approach is a good deal easier than having dogs running randomly round in circles and constantly changing direction and speed. Even so, practice over a couple of years has improved my success rate.

I don't always shoot the dog head on, but that's my preferred shooting angle. Here are a couple that break that mold....

and my all time favourite, very much on point....

p.s. If you're shooting with the 70-300 then try shooting at the 300mm end of things. With the dog at a greater distance it will make panning easier and give the AF an easier time too. The closer the dog when you shoot the trickier things will be for photographer and equipment.

 

[lizzy23]

I'm not sure I understand your question. How do I manage what?

Exposure is manual. Focus is AI Servo.

As I only have one dog there is no "running around" involved. Usually there is a tennis ball involved, either thrown by me or my partner, or the dog is being called. That means the dog is moving in a pretty straight line at a fairly constant speed. I position myself with the sun somewhere behind me, probably just over one shoulder, and make the effort to make sure the dog is moving in a direction that works with the light, so the dog is well lit from the front and there is light in the eyes. Eyes are pretty crucial to the whole thing. They need to be visible, sharp and full of life (light). So long as the eyes are sharp you can pretty much get away with murder on anything else as far as focus/DOF is concerned. If the eyes are invisible or soft then it would take something special to make it a keeper.

I wouldn't call tracking the dog easy, but I'm sure my approach is a good deal easier than having dogs running randomly round in circles and constantly changing direction and speed. Even so, practice over a couple of years has improved my success rate.

I don't always shoot the dog head on, but that's my preferred shooting angle. Here are a couple that break that mold....

and my all time favourite, very much on point....

p.s. If you're shooting with the 70-300 then try shooting at the 300mm end of things. With the dog at a greater distance it will make panning easier and give the AF an easier time too. The closer the dog when you shoot the trickier things will be for photographer and equipment.

I always shoot at the long end and i do use AI Servo what i meant was i can't adjust the focus quickly enough manually to get the shot i want before they're on top of me, i suppose its horses for courses i like to catch them doing what they do, and a lot of the time i don't like to do them head on

Thanks for the advice will just keep practicing

 

[HoppyUK]

Tim, how do your 7D and 1D3 compare on servo AF, say with 100-400L? I'm wondering about the percentage in focus one camera vs the other, assuming you nail the AF point okay? Thanks.

 

[tdodd]

Tim, how do your 7D and 1D3 compare on servo AF, say with 100-400L? I'm wondering about the percentage in focus one camera vs the other, assuming you nail the AF point okay? Thanks.

It's a tough one to call as I have never shot them back to back on the same day in the same light and I don't have those keeper stats. If I had to pick, for the 100-400 specifically, then I think I'd give it to the 7D, but the biggest thing I've noticed is that as my skills have improved so has my rate of success with both cameras, and even my 5D2 can turn in a fair result, although it would usually be bottom of the list when picking a camera for shooting running dogs.

IIRC, and I haven't checked to confirm the specs, I think the 7D is cross point sensitive on all AF points at f/5.6, whereas the 1D3 drops to linear sensitivity only at f/5.6 on all but the centre point. If true that might well explain the edge the 7D appears to have, especially as I would tend to pick an AF point one or two above centre when shooting running dogs.

On all my f/2.8 and faster lenses both bodies perform extremely well, so long as I hold up my end of the bargain with my tracking sills.

 

[HoppyUK]

Thanks very much Tim. I noticed that several of your great shots above were taken with the 7D/100-400L combo, though I'm still a bit surprised (very pleasantly) that you favour it over the 1D3.

Thinking about getting a 7D myself. Looks like it may be even better than I thought

 

[tdodd]

I looked up the specs on both cameras (manuals and white papers) and if I've read correctly you need f/2.8 and faster to get 19 cross sensitive main points on the 1D3. The 26 assist points are all only linear. Drop slower than f/2.8 and you only get cross sensitivity at the centre, and then only up to f/5.6. At f/8 you're down to horizontal line sensitivity at the centre only.

On the 7D you get 19 cross sensitive points right up to f/5.6, which means that all your assist points are cross sensitive too. That's got to be of value when using a lens like the 100-400 or any other slow lens.

 

[HoppyUK]

I looked up the specs on both cameras (manuals and white papers) and if I've read correctly you need f/2.8 and faster to get 19 cross sensitive main points on the 1D3. The 26 assist points are all only linear. Drop slower than f/2.8 and you only get cross sensitivity at the centre, and then only up to f/5.6. At f/8 you're down to horizontal line sensitivity at the centre only.

On the 7D you get 19 cross sensitive points right up to f/5.6, which means that all your assist points are cross sensitive too. That's got to be of value when using a lens like the 100-400 or any other slow lens.

Thanks Tim. That probably explains it. Good news

 

[psf150]

Sorry to the OP for jumping on the thread, but I have to say (and despite being very much a cat person rather than dogs), but these shots are absolutely stunning, as well as technically impressive. Top man

 

[tdodd]

Thanks Tim. That probably explains it. Good news

I had a trawl and found a couple of running dog photos taken in similar lighting on the same day with my 1D3, 7D and 100-400. As I was focal length limited I have cropped the 1D3 photo to exactly the sensor size of the 7D, making the subject size very comparable within the two compositions. Both shots are with the same exposure value, at 400 ISO, but the 7D version has had a 0.7 stop exposure increase in Lightroom. Apart from also adjusting WB there are no other adjustments such as extra sharpening or NR.

You can view the two images resized to 1620x1080 here (EXIF intact)....

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-...RE5OBkYg_v8/s1620/20110508_110430_4494_LR.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...FJB9kTnWqug/s1620/20110508_111240_7915_LR.jpg

100% crops from each below (make sure not to let your browser resize the image) and of course I know you appreciate the pitfalls of comparing 100% crops from such widely varying pixel densities. ....

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...dYk/XkyjB5DB3B8/s1920/20120223_230750_000.jpg

 

[HoppyUK]

Thanks very much Tim. I love a good comparison

1D3 looks better, though I think only because the dog's head with the 7D is a smidge out of focus. Focus on both looks to be more on the chest than head, maybe that's where the AF point landed, and the 1D3 should have a fraction more DoF at f/6.3...?

Both very good, but it kind of makes the point that no matter how many pixels you've got or how sharp the lens is, if the focus isn't 100% then you're not going to max the sharpness.

That was behind my original question really, since I'm on a mission to shoot puffins in flight this summer and if the camera won't servo-track exactly I'm stuffed. Looking like I might hire a 1D4 and summat big and white (if I can't blag a 1DX ).

Thanks again bud

Edit: fine looking dog - wife wants a retired greyhound!

 

[tdodd]

Oops - cockup on the link posting front. That last link pointed to a website resized version of the 100% comparison. I've fixed that and here is the correct one....

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-...dYk/XkyjB5DB3B8/s1920/20120223_230750_000.jpg It's 1920x1080 so make sure your browser doesn't shrink it.

If you look at the closest whiskers on the 7D shot I don't think you'll much to fault in the 7D's AF performance. The DOF does seem whisker thin at 100% though.

Here's the AF setup for the shot. Of course, if there is any room for complaint remember I have a part to play as well as the camera.

The dog's name is "Charm" and he is a rescue lurcher from Chancepixies in Kent. I think he is quite young and when I photographed him he had been with them over a year. He's a scatty thing, but quite adorable.

I just checked the website and it appears he is still looking for a home, nine months on from when I photographed him, on a photography day organised by Kerioak.

http://www.chancepixies.com/rehome_dogs_01.htm

 

[HoppyUK]

Thanks again Tim. That evens things up a bit. Close call.

Wife has just seen Charm now. Thanks a bunch! He needs a bit more walking than we can give though. Elegant fellow. Wishing him luck

 

[jomantha]

Marking place for a later read