Insurance questions

Craikeybaby

Craikeybaby

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I've finally got round to sorting out some insurance, but I'm still unsure about a few things, so hopefully someone here can help...

Kit value - I've bought most of my lenses from Kerso, do I insure them for the value I paid, or for the rrp? Also I bought my 20D as refurbished and it is a few years old now, how would I got about valuing that? What I paid for it? secondhand values, rrp of a new 40D?

I know a lot of places I'm intending to shoot later this year need third party liability, how much is the normal? £1m? £2m? More?
 
I'm interested to see the response to this, especially the value you put on your kit as I need to sort out insurance myself.
 
Most insurance companys won't pay out on what you paid for you kit, they'll only pay at current market value. Take cars for example. Just because a new car is £20k, doesn't mean you'll get that in 2 years time if you write it off :)

I think the minimum for PLI is 2million, sometimes more
 
Craikeybaby said:
I know a lot of places I'm intending to shoot later this year need third party liability, how much is the normal? £1m? £2m? More?
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The difference in price isn't that much , I ended up going for £5 million because my wife thinks I'm dangerous :shrug:
 
Mine is covered under my house insurance.
Last year when I managed to drop the camera and break a lens the insurance company insisted on paying out the Jessops price for a replacement (less £50 excess), which was more then I had originally paid out !
 
mattyh said:
Most insurance companys won't pay out on what you paid for you kit, they'll only pay at current market value.
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That's something that's always bothered me about car insurance (and other insurances!).

If you pay a particular premium for something at a certain value then they should pay out that value - if they pay out less (ie the current market rate) then your premium should have been less!

I suppose more accurately your premium should self adjust and not be fixed for a year because the value of what is insured sure isn't fixed for a year - but I can't see the insurance companies agreeing to that! hehe
 
I have a 'New' for old replacement policy with my house insurance , I've paid a little extra for cover away from the home including accidental damage.
 
I used to work in Reinsurance at Lloyds of London. A couple of tips.

Always get new for old. It would then be replaced with something of a similar status.

e.g. If you bought a D3 in 2008 and in 4 years time you claimed it would be replaced with whatever the top of the range equivalent is in 2012.

Insurance companies will always try to fob you off.

My I.T. consultancy recently prepared an Insurance report for a dropped desktop PC.

5 years ago it was top of the range. The Insurer offered a HP/Compaq base unit worth £205 in value or Vouchers to the same amount for PC World.
The original system was purpose built so I qouted for a similar status in todays market and told the policy holder to hold out for a better deal.

He now has a brand new quad core system instead of some naff HP/Compaq .

I personally have done the same with a Hi Fi separates system that was damaged beyond repair. The original price was around £800 but to replace to a similar level cost approx £1300. Insurer coughed up no problem.

Re camera equipment though always check your policy as there is often a max limit per item above which you must notify the Insurer of items exceeding this limit.
 
Ta for all the advice, home contents insurance is not an option for me as I need liability cover too.
 
mattyh said:
Lol... I agree totally, you're screwed either way... although my home insurance have just paid out £280 on my 24-70 2.8 that i dropped... I only paid £220 for it, but I have got to pay £100 excess :'(
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That sucks but at least it didn't cost you too much I suppose.

Do insurers require proof of purchase? I thinking what would stop people insuring a D3 or something that they don't have and claiming it's been stolen or something? - apart from their premiums going through the roof ;)
 
gman said:
That sucks but at least it didn't cost you too much I suppose.

Do insurers require proof of purchase? I thinking what would stop people insuring a D3 or something that they don't have and claiming it's been stolen or something? - apart from their premiums going through the roof ;)
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They don't need proof of purchase, they don't even need proof that you infact own the items insured.

However, doing what you said (claiming on insurance for something you don't infact own) is insurance fraud, highly illegal. If caught you can be sent to prison (not for first time offences, but doing it a few times will definatly have you bending over for the soap :D )

Insurance fraud is serious, you can land yourself in big trouble doing it, not worth it really.
 
8utters said:
If caught you can be sent to prison (not for first time offences
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Nice one! I'll just do the one claim for my Tornado GR4 that got stolen last week ;)
 
PsiFox said:
Always get new for old. It would then be replaced with something of a similar status.

.
.
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Always, without hesitation. You have no way of knowing how dramatically the technology, never mind the prices, will move in the coming years. Good example there with the top of the range computer.

For my own example I can offer a top of the range flat screen tv which the insurer wanted to replace with an 800 quid model. I held out, made the case, and took delivery of a £3k model :clap:
 
What happened to the TV and what size was it?
 
gman said:
Nice one! I'll just do the one claim for my Tornado GR4 that got stolen last week ;)
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Well, I didn't mean you would get away with it, but you would be taken to court and if you pleaded guilty they would probably give you community service, and you'd have to pay a huge fine.
 
do any of the specialist photo insurance companies require serial numbers? That would identify who owned what, what was covered on multiple policies and so on.

New for old is very sensible, otherwise you'll just get market value, which after any excesses could be worth diddly-squat.

The job of the insurance man is to extract the biggest premium they can, and in the event of a claim to pay out the least. They are not your friend, they won't give you a hug, its just profit. Your job is to realise this and to act accordingly.
 
8utters, I was only joking around! ;)

2blue, was wondering as with a £3K equiv the original must have been huge and was expecting you to say it was stolen - that would have been some job to move! lol Well, at least you've come out of it good!

I reckon the New for Old is a sensible route and will start looking into it ASAP - especially after my close shave with my prime 20mm! Funny how some people (ie me!) wait until it's almost too late hehe!
 
gman said:
I suppose more accurately your premium should self adjust and not be fixed for a year because the value of what is insured sure isn't fixed for a year - but I can't see the insurance companies agreeing to that! hehe
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With Car Insurance you should only insure your car for its market value, no point in doing anything else. My car cost a fortune, it's 9 months old and insured for £12k less than I paid due to me being able to get the same spec in better nick for £12k less than I paid.

Gary.
 
With all insurance read the small print it's all explained there.

Photoguard require me to provide S/Ns for all items over £250 at the time I took out the policy (and renewal).

At the point of claim I have to provide a receipt, or Bank / CC statements showing that I purchased the items insured (explained in the small print).

I may also be expected to send them damaged items to them (at my expense) if they request it - not clearly explained in the small print :shake:.

They offer a New for Old policy and as such they suggest you insure the kit for the cost of replacement. On this basis I have my 20ish year old 80-200 f2.8 insured for £720 as this is a little above what Warehouse Express have current version advertised for.

Plus photoguard don't have an excess :thumbs: (just a minimum claim limit of £100)

P.S. I recently claimed on Photoguard for a dropped 18-135mm and had it replaced without too much hastle - check out the reviews section.
 
andrewc said:
do any of the specialist photo insurance companies require serial numbers? That would identify who owned what, what was covered on multiple policies and so on.

New for old is very sensible, otherwise you'll just get market value, which after any excesses could be worth diddly-squat.

The job of the insurance man is to extract the biggest premium they can, and in the event of a claim to pay out the least. They are not your friend, they won't give you a hug, its just profit. Your job is to realise this and to act accordingly.
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Yep, mine do, also my dealer can call up all purchases made by myself ( Alot ) so far they have been brilliant, often get the same chap on the other end when I ring up and add to the policy, last time I rang while still in the shop as I dare not leave the premises without it being covered, much to the staffs amusement, lol !
www.aaduki.com
 
It's worth checking your home insurance to see if your kit is covered if it's stolen from an unattended car, or damaged in a car crash, then checking with your car insurance for the same thing. My home contents insurance is a rip off for anything specific, and my car insurance only covers personal belongings up to £50 if stolen with with the car, if they are stolen from an unattended car they are not covered...
 
I can dig out the details of the guys I use if it's any help?

- Goods are covered whilst in car, as log as they are not let in car overnight
- Goods are covered in the event of a vehicle crash, my motorbike included
- I have gone with a value of £10,000 which is around £12 per month
- Accidental Damage, Theft, Loss, everything appears to be covered
- As far as I can tell, no mention of proving purchase via receipts etc

Please be aware I have not read the small print for some time, but here is a link to them
http://www.imaginginsurance.co.uk/
 
I was just about to post about these guys too, have been using them for several years now. Reasonably priced and nice guys to speak to. Havent had to claim yet though.....

http://www.imaginginsurance.co.uk/

Costs me £18/month for £4k cover, with Public liability of 1mill and 25k professional incompetance (they call it something else) cover
 
I'm still waiting for them to call me back after there was no one in to give me a quote yesterday, at the moment it is between them and Photoguard. Does anyone know if you can bump up the liability for particular events?
 
Aaaarrghh, Insurance!

Hi Craikeybaby.

I worked in insurance for 25 years (5 as abroker and 20 as a Commercial Ins Underwriter) My wife worked 20+ years in ins mostly in Household Ins.

I posted a thread some time ago in this forum entitled 'INSURANCE and Photography - some basics'.

Basically, you have 2 types of Ins - Household and Commercial. They are not compatible.

Most togs are amateurs (in the nice sense - they don't get any money) and they only need Household cover.

If you accept any money for togging (no matter how little or infrequent) you are a pro and will need Commercial insurances.

You say you need PL cover and I assume you are being paid. Otherwise your Household policy will provide necessary PL cover.

Also, re, Motor Ins - If paid togging is part-time and your Motor Insurer has not been told (say they have you down as an electrician or beauty therapist...) then you're not covered while working as a tog. That's a legal offence.

WHAT INSURANCES YOU NEED DEPENDS ON THAT ONE ISSUE - ARE YOU AN AMATEUR OR A PRO?

See my previous thread for advice BUT I would reccommend EVERYONE to have New for Old on their gear - you pay more for it but it protects your investment.

Amateurs should have adequate PL cover (usually £2M) under their Household cover BUT pros should have a MINIMUM PL LOI of £5M (1 or 2 millions goes nowhere these days)

MAKE SURE your Motor Insurer knows about your paid togging.

PUT EVERYTHING in writing.

GET EVERYTHING in writing.

SEEK advice from a good Ins Broker (find in Yellow Pages)

I agree with PsiFox's post above (#10) the Ins Co's will try to wriggle out and fob you off.
This because they are ALL in a mess. For decades they have been run for the benefit of their shareholders; staff levels have been cut (in the name of efficiency), staff are trained - poorly trained at that - only in one aspect of the job (streamlining) and sound underwriting practices have been abandonned in favour of marketing (gaining marketshare).
To know this you only have to look at your TV... 'We guarantee to beat your existing quote AND give you £x cashback, No proposal form required...' etc. Where is the sound underwriting in this? All that's required is a phone call and a credit card. It may sound good but the proposal form forms part of the legal contract and if there isn't one... hmmm! If you have a claim it's You say/They say.

Believe it or not, as a result of this marketing before underwriting attitude ins premiums are probably lower than they should be! So how do they make money and stay in business?
 
Thanks for that post barsbyart, give me a lot to think about (I had read your other thread too and new for old is certainly on my check list), I've not sold any pictures yet and don't have home contents insurance, but the plan is that I am going to start selling photos at some point so will probably end up going with the pro option, just got to work out how much my kit is worth now...
 
Craikeybaby said:
just got to work out how much my kit is worth now...
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Craikeybaby.

Fixing the value (Sum Insured) of your gear isn't as difficult as it used to be.

In the bad-old-days of high inflation you could buy your Nikanon in Jan for (say)£1000, by June it would cost £1250 and by Dec the SAME Nikanon cost £1500 so you would have had to guess/anticipate the increase and insure for £1500.

Nowadays the problem is different; you buy your dNikanon in Jan for £1000 but by June it's been superceded by the dNikanon v2 (or v3) and by Dec dNikanon v6 is on the shelves - your original dNikanon is obsolete! You can't get the SAME camera. The good news is that the dNikanon v6 still only costs about £1000.

If you fix your SI at the price you paid (new) you won't be far wrong BUT the Ins Coy might argue that by replacing with the v6 there is an element of 'betterment' (the v6 has 4 more buttons, 2 extra lights and a choice of whistles!)

You could argue that you bought the top-end dNikanon for £1000, insured New for Old with a SI of £1000 and you want a top-end dNikanon for £1000 as your original is no longer available. Might work... depends on how much they want to argue.

I still have contacts in the Ins world and I can tell you that the current practice for at least one company (NO names) is as follows:

Claims under £1000 - no arguments, no investigation... just pay up. They consider this the cheap option.

Claims over£1000 - appoint Loss Adjusters EVERY TIME. They hope the LA's will reduce the amount of the claim. LA's are supposed to be independent (and I'm not saying otherwise)but let's face it the Ins Coys wouldn't pay them to investigate unless they thought they would make a saving on the claim payment.

One tip though - NEVER inflate the amount of your cllaim, live with the policy Excess. IF they find the slightest 'irregularity' in your claim they will HAPPILY declare your claim fraudulent and not pay a single penny!
 
I need to give Photoguard a call later, as imaging insurance won't cover my gear when I'm snowboarding (ie having it in a backpack while I'm riding along) hopefully photoguard will cover this...
 
I use Photoguard, they came highly recommended. I'm covered for all the basic stuff plus have PL, and in-car, plus the option to add professional indemnity to my policy at a later date (may well do some event photography next year). I insured all my kit for the RRP rather than what I paid, and they ask for serial numbers of anything over £70 I think.
 
LauraF said:
I use Photoguard, they came highly recommended. I'm covered for all the basic stuff plus have PL, and in-car, plus the option to add professional indemnity to my policy at a later date (may well do some event photography next year). I insured all my kit for the RRP rather than what I paid, and they ask for serial numbers of anything over £70 I think.
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Hi LauraF.

Why do you need Professional Indemnity? Prof Ind'y is for people who offer professional advice for a fee (Lawyers, Financial Advisors, Ins Brokers, Consultants, etc...) as a photographer pro or am you don't need it! I know nothing about Photoguard or their policy wording but if they're offering you, as a photographer, Prof Ind'y I would be wary of them.

You may not even need PL Ins; if you're a pro (accepting a fee for taking photos) then you really should have it BUT if you are an amateur (ie not accepting a fee) then you probably already have PL under your household policy.

If you are an amateur and have PL under both your household and Photoguard policies you are not only paying twice but could have difficulties should you need to make a claim - which company will pay out? They could and probably will each try to abdicate responsibility to the other.
 
I did look at going through my house insurance to begin with, but the cover they offered was very minimal and not too reassuring, it seemed the easier option to go with a photo-specific company who came on high recommendation with regards to dealing quickly and efficiently with a number of claims.

Public liability I wanted as I shoot a lot of horses - and at events I don't want to take the risk of my camera spooking a horse (even without flash, it happens) and facing potential financial consequences.

I'm perfectly happy with what I'm paying - and as I said, I've had very positive feedback from people who are with PG and have made claims in the past.

As for indemnity, I was under the impression it provided cover in the event that you had been booked/paid for a shoot, and were liable for sueing (sp?) should you fail to deliver the product (eg memory cards wiped & all photos lost). I don't want to take any chances - as I can easily afford a few bob a year for insurance, but certainly couldn't afford to foot a hefty legal bill. Either way, I'm not looking at covering any events for another year - so as and when I make the decision to, I'll do my research.
 
Okay. From what you say you are obviously a pro therefore your household PL cover does not extend to you biz activeties. You need to arrange PL cover as a pro (I say minimum £5M and pref £10M LoI)

I say again - Professional Indemnity is for persons giving advice for a fee.

Don't know what photog you do but let's say Weddings. You are booked but dont show or cannot deliver the pics. You refund the fee paid - where then the clients financial loss?

Or... you are booked for a catwalk shoot but don't show, etc. Client has obviously suffered finan loss (booking venue, models) but it was their choice, their biz decision to use you. These things happen! Refund the fee and they would be unable to sue you.

You say you can't afford hefty legal fees... 2 things arise from this:
1. PI does not cover your legal fees - this is Legal Expenses Cover
2. PI is not intended to be your safety net (Oh well, I won't argue .. I have PI). In order for PI insurers to pay out the client would have to demonstrate in court or outside that they sufferred finan loss as a direct result of following advice given by you for a fee.

It may be PG are not offerring PI cover as the term is understood within the insurance market but something (added value) of their own devising. Check with them what it covers and under what circumstances it would operate.
 
LauraF said:
I use Photoguard, they came highly recommended. I'm covered for all the basic stuff plus have PL, and in-car, plus the option to add professional indemnity to my policy at a later date (may well do some event photography next year). I insured all my kit for the RRP rather than what I paid, and they ask for serial numbers of anything over £70 I think.
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To qualify for the in car cover what storage do you use in your boot?
 
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