indoor party, kit lens F stop not cutting it?

Lefrash

Lefrash

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I'm very much a beginner, so much so I took my new (to me) d7000 to a wedding reception for the first time the other night. It was still light outside and there was some windows, so it wasn't dark like a night club, but not quite as light as your living room in the evening. My kit lens is 18-55 f3.5-5.4 - I found every single photo struggling for light before pushing the SS too slow or the ISO too high.. I used the flash a few times and the shots were fine but had that 'flash' look. This is not a 'should i buy a faster lens' post because I'm pretty happy with my setup for everything else I've been trying so ill not be buying any new gear, but i just want more opinions on real life practical experiences from you all. Would a f1.8 (for example) provide so much more light that it (likely) would be fine?


On the other hand, it might just be I need to take my flash with me, but id rather not! For some odd reason I'm not overly keen on using flash at all! Tink it gets on peoples tits after a couple of shots!
 
You could quite easily get away with the maximum ISO on your body when taking photos at parties and weddings as a guest. And with the VR on your kit lens, you should be able to go as low as 1/10th - 1/30th SS if you keep yourself steady.
 
F stops: 1, 1.4, 2, 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, 16

Each one of those will gain you a stop elsewhere so if you have a 50mm f/1.8 lens vs. a kit lens at f/5.6 then you are gaining just over 3 stops which is a shutter speed of (for example) 1/250 vs 1/30 or an ISO of 800 instead of 6400.
 
Orangecroc said:
You could quite easily get away with the maximum ISO on your body when taking photos at parties and weddings as a guest. And with the VR on your kit lens, you should be able to go as low as 1/10th - 1/30th SS if you keep yourself steady.
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Yes, but you'll have movement blur at 1/10 - people don't stay still at weddings!
 
you say that you are a beginner ..........not only are you fighting holding the camera steady ........ you will also experience "movement" when you press the trigger, (until you have got used to the camera and even then it takes time and practice to minimise this), and also "movement" when the mirror moves up and down

in such circumstances and with that lens and a DSLR I would be very surprised if you would get a consistant sharpe image with a shutter speed of less than 1/50th sec ...... I would even go as far as saying less than 1/100th sec.

just be conscious that there will be movement from pressing the shutter button and try to see and correct it when you take your shots .......... "mirror slap" will be there
 
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Lefrash said:
I used the flash a few times and the shots were fine but had that 'flash' look
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I'm assuming that was the built in flash? You really need a flash that you can bounce of a ceiling or wall to avoid that "flash look"
 
IMO, the best answer for these situations is getting a speedlight and learning to bounce it.
Many opt for a fast f/1.x prime lens as that does get you more light. But it doesn't get you as much as a speedlight can, and the DOF is painfully thin at f/1.x for anything in motion (and in low light AF is typically slower/less accurate)
 
I'd agree with Chris and Steven that a bounce flash is probably the way to go, but I wasn't clear if you already have one (you mention needing to take it with you). As well as often giving more natural results, bounced flash may be less irritating to your subjects, who aren't getting the full blast in the face! A fast lens is a nice thing to have, though. Nikon has a relatively cheap 35/1.8 for DX you might want to consider at some point. You can do the sort of calculation that Ned suggests to determine how much this would have helped in the room where you just shot. How high an ISO were you forced to use, and how high do you find acceptable with the D7000? You might also be able to improve what you already have using noise reduction software. Dfine from the free collection of Nik plugins works well: https://www.google.com/nikcollection/ Although this is designed to be used with Photoshop, there are various ways of making it work standalone or with GIMP, etc.: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/get-started-googles-free-nik-plugins-photography/
 
Retune said:
I'd agree with Chris and Steven that a bounce flash is probably the way to go, but I wasn't clear if you already have one (you mention needing to take it with you). As well as often giving more natural results, bounced flash may be less irritating to your subjects, who aren't getting the full blast in the face! A fast lens is a nice thing to have, though. Nikon has a relatively cheap 35/1.8 for DX you might want to consider at some point. You can do the sort of calculation that Ned suggests to determine how much this would have helped in the room where you just shot. How high an ISO were you forced to use, and how high do you find acceptable with the D7000? You might also be able to improve what you already have using noise reduction software. Dfine from the free collection of Nik plugins works well: https://www.google.com/nikcollection/ Although this is designed to be used with Photoshop, there are various ways of making it work standalone or with GIMP, etc.: http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/get-started-googles-free-nik-plugins-photography/
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Pretty sure the nik collection all come as standalones now.
 
If I'm a guest anywhere the last thing I want is to be firing off a flash and TBH I don't like others doing it.
 
Orangecroc said:
Pretty sure the nik collection all come as standalones now.
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Well, they work as standalone, but some of them are less convenient to use this way - e.g. Dfine has no file dialogue, so (in Windows) you have to drag a copy of your image file to the standalone executable (or its shortcut icon), and you can only save directly back to the input file with the 'save' button (no 'save as'). When used as a plugin, all the loading and saving is handled in the normal way by PS (or other host application).
 
I've got a flash but didn't take it. Mainly because I wouldn't want to use it in this particular setting. Sounds like I'm not alone in not liking using the flash! I did however try the built in flash which I didn't particularly like the look of the photos. Plus I was still conscious of annoying folk!

The lens I have isn't vr, perhaps not being able to get the shutter speed down was also an issue.

Good feedback! Definitely getting me thinking!
 
Everyone is in the same boat. No matter what camera or lens you have there is a limit that is quickly reached what light levels fall.
 
Lefrash said:
I've got a flash but didn't take it. Mainly because I wouldn't want to use it in this particular setting. Sounds like I'm not alone in not liking using the flash! I did however try the built in flash which I didn't particularly like the look of the photos. Plus I was still conscious of annoying folk!

The lens I have isn't vr, perhaps not being able to get the shutter speed down was also an issue.

Good feedback! Definitely getting me thinking!
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Ehh what??? Not bringing flash cause not liking to use flash but then use the build in... (n)
If youre going to use flash anyway bring the proper one and show people they didn't get annoyed for nothing.
Re the 50mm. That's a somewhat long lens on apsc. Ok for portraits but easily to tight.
VR may solve camera shake problems but not moving subjects and while blur can be creative it's also often distracting.
 
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soeren said:
Ehh what??? Not bringing flash cause not liking to use flash but then use the build in... (n)
If youre going to use flash anyway bring the proper one and show people they didn't get annoyed for nothing.
Re the 50mm. That's a somewhat long lens on apsc. Ok for portraits but easily to tight.
VR may solve camera shake problems but not moving subjects and while blur can be creative it's also often distracting.
Click to expand...

I used the flash for literally a couple of pics when I realised I was struggling for light. I was there as a guest, so didn't want to take all my bits and bobs.
 
Wedding reception/indoor party and even with fast glass your very quickly going to need to add light. The built in flash as you found is always going to give you that nasty rabbit in the headlights look you need the real flash and a ceiling/wall! I've taken pictures at s few friends weddings (requested by them) and nobody has ever betted an eye lid at the bounced flash most of them were drunk and the disco had much worse lights!
 
Flash is the only way forward, you need to add light - or use the other lighting thats there, i.e. the disco if it has pulsing lights - time the shots to the pulses. I don't like trying to bounce flash, it's not always sucessful depending on the room, I prefer a flash modifier, at the moment I'm using a Gary Fong lightsphere but others are available. This works really well at controlling the harsh shadows you get with a direct flash.

A proper flashgun gives you the light you need on a very short duration, so guests don't notice unless you're right in their faces, or if they do, most of the time you're getting poses anyway. With ETTL the flashgun sorts out how much light you need, I usually shoot manual, stick the shutter on 1/125th. Have a play at home, practice, so that you're happy with your technique for when you need it.

Then you could start on off camera flash :D
 
Byker28i said:
I don't like trying to bounce flash, it's not always sucessful depending on the room, I prefer a flash modifier, at the moment I'm using a Gary Fong lightsphere but others are available.
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You realize that the lightsphere is just a bounce lighting tool right? It does about zero to soften the flash directly, without walls/ceilings the only thing it really does is eat batteries.
 
sk66 said:
You realize that the lightsphere is just a bounce lighting tool right? It does about zero to soften the flash directly, without walls/ceilings the only thing it really does is eat batteries.
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I have a the early soft flexible one with the half dome cap, you can use it in two ways, direct at the subject pointing the cap at them or 90 degrees allowing the flash to bounce all around. I did see the tutorial for it before I bought it which suggested the cap bounced some light back internally hence the softer diffused light. It does diffuse the flash 360 degrees that way, but then bouncing flash from a high church or hall ceiling is difficult, and getting it to reach up to the clouds outdoors... :D
Certainly on a simple test shooting someone almost against the wall, the harsh shadow is gone for a much softer look.

Other flash modifiers are available, including home made from cardboard. I've made quite a few playing with lighting
 
Uhh I hate the look from those small on camera plastic bowls. I'd rather Up the ISO as much as the IQ allows, zoom the flash and bounce if at all possible. If afsked to be photographing and I have room and absolutely nothing to bounce off I'd do the last resort with the "Zach Arias" way

http://dedpxl.com/qa-traveling-light/
 
Flash bender with diffuser panel is also very good when no ceilings/walls available.
 
Brazo said:
Flash bender with diffuser panel is also very good when no ceilings/walls available.
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That would be the XL version then ;) An alternative to the off camera umbrella thing linked above though still hard light.
 
Byker28i said:
Certainly on a simple test shooting someone almost against the wall, the harsh shadow is gone for a much softer look.
Click to expand...
There simply isn't a flash modifier for on camera that is large enough to create "diffused/soft" light directly... it just doesn't/can't work. It's like the idea that you can put tape over the pop-up flash to diffuse it, the only thing it does is drop the flash output.
 
Brazo said:
Flash bender with diffuser panel is also very good when no ceilings/walls available.
Click to expand...
soeren said:
That would be the XL version then ;) An alternative to the off camera umbrella thing linked above though still hard light.
Click to expand...
I've come to the conclusion that the size of the bounce panel is of little relevance... well, it needs to be big enough to direct/control all of the flash output (i.e. bigger than the built in card), but there's no real benefit to the XL version (other than it works better as a snoot).
 
Lefrash said:
I'm very much a beginner, so much so I took my new (to me) d7000 to a wedding reception for the first time the other night. It was still light outside and there was some windows, so it wasn't dark like a night club, but not quite as light as your living room in the evening. My kit lens is 18-55 f3.5-5.4 - I found every single photo struggling for light before pushing the SS too slow or the ISO too high.. I used the flash a few times and the shots were fine but had that 'flash' look. This is not a 'should i buy a faster lens' post because I'm pretty happy with my setup for everything else I've been trying so ill not be buying any new gear, but i just want more opinions on real life practical experiences from you all. Would a f1.8 (for example) provide so much more light that it (likely) would be fine?

On the other hand, it might just be I need to take my flash with me, but id rather not! For some odd reason I'm not overly keen on using flash at all! Tink it gets on peoples tits after a couple of shots!
Click to expand...

You have to compromise. Quite a few options but nothing ideal, and what you go for depends on the situation and how much ambient light is available, the kind of result you're after, and how much work you're prepared to put into it or are able to apply. The problem with bolting on a fast lens is it might not be enough (unless you also have a high-end high-ISO camera), and the very shallow depth of field. Not so much of a problem with solo portraits, or even couples if you're careful with posing, but when you get a few more people involved it's very hard to have them all in focus.

My go-to solution is flash and the Lumiquest QuikBounce which is the best on-camera accessory I'm aware of
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjG96-MVoi0
It's a bounce-fill device, like the Fong, or Stofen, or a bounce card, or most other flash attachments for that matter. They all do basically the same thing, using flash bounced off the ceiling as the main and much softer light source, and the QuikBounce does it best/easiest. It works well indoors or out (flaps closed), either horizontal or vertical framing, with useful softening of the fill-in light at closer distances, doesn't waste precious light out of the back, offers some control of the bounce/fill ratio, and folds away flat.

A similar option, and even easier, is bounce flash with the little hilite panel in the head pulled up. If you've not used that before, you may be amazed at the difference it makes. I find bounce flash or bounce-fill flash, is pretty unobtrusive in practise, it's nothing like having a full power flash blasted straight at you.

I would also drop the shutter speed to pull up the ambient level and lighten the background, leaving the flash to freeze any movement. Depending on how far you drop the shutter speed and how much movement is going on, you may get some ghosting around the subject from the ambient. I don't mind a bit of that though, within reason, as the alternative is a black or very dark background that kills the atmosphere.

You need to practise. With a few basic tools and a bit of knowledge and experience, you can get some great results, and still enjoy the party :)
 
Byker28i said:
>SNIP
Certainly on a simple test shooting someone almost against the wall, the harsh shadow is gone for a much softer look.
SNIP<
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Two things.
1. The "modifier" is still relatively small so what you see may as well be the shadows filled in by bounced light, the shadow edges are still sharp but appears softer cause they are filled in.
2. While youre bouncing light in every direction you main lightsource is still the on camera flash and it's working very hard to fill the intire room with light.
3 if you instead move closer to a side wall an point your flash at that one using a BFT youll have one big soft lightsource that looks natural. Point it at a wall behind you and you have a wraparound effect. Neil Van Niekirk have some very good article on the subject on his website.
 
sk66 said:
I've come to the conclusion that the size of the bounce panel is of little relevance... well, it needs to be big enough to direct/control all of the flash output (i.e. bigger than the built in card), but there's no real benefit to the XL version (other than it works better as a snoot).
Click to expand...
I guess it's because the size difference does not give that much room for moving around before the relative size is the same. It works a bit like a softbox but even with the diffuser it's still a small lightsource
 
soeren said:
I guess it's because the size difference does not give that much room for moving around before the relative size is the same. It works a bit like a softbox but even with the diffuser it's still a small lightsource
Click to expand...
Yes, small is small... and once it's small/far enough to be "hard" (~ 3x size) it doesn't get "harder"... at 12ft you could use a 3ft softbox or a bare bulb/fresnel and it will look the same. But the softbox will cost you power/battery.
I.e. to get "soft light" from a 3ft softbox it really needs to be w/in 3ft; from 3-9ft the benefit rapidly decreases to being about pointless (other than spill control)... no one is going to use a 12" on camera modifier from 12" away for photographing people, and most on camera modifiers are much smaller than that.
 
HoppyUK said:
It works well indoors or out (flaps closed), either horizontal or vertical framing, with useful softening of the fill-in light at closer distances, doesn't waste precious light out of the back, offers some control of the bounce/fill ratio, and folds away flat.
Click to expand...
It's also fairly rigid... my only complaint about the flash-bender types is that they are very easy to knock out of shape.
 
sk66 said:
It's also fairly rigid... my only complaint about the flash-bender types is that they are very easy to knock out of shape.
Click to expand...

And the FlashBender needs a bit of careful thought in setting up to get the bend and the angles right.

I like the QuikBounce because it is quick and easy and it works. You can just put it on and shoot, and in an average room with white ceiling you'll get a decent result with nice soft light from the ceiling plus a dash of slightly softened direct fill-in that lifts shadows under eyes and chins (and hats!) and puts a sparkle in the eyes. Maybe drop the shutter speed to pull up the background ambient light, and you have nice party snaps, if perhaps not great art.

If I'm doing things properly, I have another rig on a flash bracket that works like a beefed up and over-size QuikBounce with two flashguns. One is fired through a RoundFlash Dish which is 18in wide https://www.roundflash.com/roundflash_dish and the other gun fires up to the ceiling or wall or wherever. It works very well with nice soft light and has a lot of versatility and controllable power, but it's big and cumbersome as heck. Guaranteed to get everyone's attention ;) I sometimes use that with a third remote flashgun bouncing off the ceiling at the back of the room to brighten the background without having to drop the shutter speed and avoid the other issues of blurring and colour casts that usually go with that. But it's also easy to kill all the atmosphere that way :D

I also use Neil Van N's Black Foamie Thing (BFT mentioned above https://neilvn.com/tangents/about/black-foamie-thing/ ) usually in combination with a fast prime and low f/number. While that gives the best results IMHO, certainly in Neil VN's hands, you need to scout the venue for the right area to work in and bounce the light (a white walled corner is good) and be able to move your subject there.

Basically anything is possible, but the moment you go beyond a simple on-camera accessory, the complexity ramps up dramatically.
 
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HoppyUK said:
And the FlashBender needs a bit of careful thought in setting up to get the bend and the angles right.
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Meh... I don't find it all that particular. A little more, a little less, it will be different/variable every time. The flash bender also works as a flag/BFT quite well... I use it like that more often than worrying about bending it into a specific curve.

HoppyUK said:
If I'm doing things properly, I have another rig on a flash bracket
Click to expand...
That sounds quite involved... I've used a BD (bare/honeycomb/sock) on an arm combined with on-camera fill. It works well other than the hard central catchlight and risk of red eye (usually easy to edit out).
 
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HoppyUK said:
And the FlashBender needs a bit of careful thought in setting up to get the bend and the angles right.

I like the QuikBounce because it is quick and easy and it works. You can just put it on and shoot, and in an average room with white ceiling you'll get a decent result with nice soft light from the ceiling plus a dash of slightly softened direct fill-in that lifts shadows under eyes and chins (and hats!) and puts a sparkle in the eyes. Maybe drop the shutter speed to pull up the background ambient light, and you have nice party snaps, if perhaps not great art.

If I'm doing things properly, I have another rig on a flash bracket that works like a beefed up and over-size QuikBounce with two flashguns. One is fired through a RoundFlash Dish which is 18in wide https://www.roundflash.com/roundflash_dish and the other gun fires up to the ceiling or wall or wherever. It works very well with nice soft light and has a lot of versatility and controllable power, but it's big and cumbersome as heck. Guaranteed to get everyone's attention ;) I sometimes use that with a third remote flashgun bouncing off the ceiling at the back of the room to brighten the background without having to drop the shutter speed and avoid the other issues of blurring and colour casts that usually go with that. But it's also easy to kill all the atmosphere that way :D

I also use Neil Van N's Black Foamie Thing (BFT mentioned above https://neilvn.com/tangents/about/black-foamie-thing/ ) usually in combination with a fast prime and low f/number. While that gives the best results IMHO, certainly in Neil VN's hands, you need to scout the venue for the right area to work in and bounce the light (a white walled corner is good) and be able to move your subject there.

Basically anything is possible, but the moment you go beyond a simple on-camera accessory, the complexity ramps up dramatically.
Click to expand...
That bft looks great and seems so simple. Now the reverse side of my flash bender is black...
 
sk66 said:
No reason for the BFT to be black unless you absolutely don't want it throwing any light forward...
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I wondered about that, but it works better as black and opaque. It's basically about preventing light from going where you don't want it, and when I tried white, it reflected too much light indiscriminately, pretty much everywhere behind. Though if you want that, and you might well, that's fine :)
 
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HoppyUK said:
I wondered about that, but it works better as black and opaque. It's basically about preventing light from going where you don't want it, and when I tried white, it reflected too much light indiscriminately, pretty much everywhere behind. Though if you want that, and you might well, that's fine :)
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Yes, white redirects/scatters the light and black absorbs it... I can see where the difference might be significant if you are really trying to control the lighting, but honestly I've never gotten that critical with on camera flash and it's not something I do a lot of.
As noted by Mark, the flashbender things are opaque and black on the opposite side... I could try both ways to see if/when it matters. But for me OnCF is for "run and gun" type work and it would be hard to know which approach would work best for each shot, not to mention making the adjustments on the fly.
 
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