Incorrect quote on the law on the beeb?

Chr1stof

Chr1stof

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Just flicking around the channels on telly, stumbled across Casualty /Holby or whatever its called, a nurse was kicking off at some bloke for taking photos in A&E, she said he was breaking the law and he needed their permission.
I know this is often a contentious issue on here, would the waiting room be a "public place" still? Would he have been "breaking the law"
 
Definitely not a public place, rather a place to which the public have access - permission would be needed.
 
Definately not a public place. The same as a shopping centre is not a public place.
 
Superewza said:
What about a library/public art gallery?
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This was my next question along with crowds at say a race track or amusement park?
Apologies if this has been covered a million times already!
 
wallyboy said:
is the town not a shopping centre
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Unlikely, though parts of it may be as in shopping malls etc which are generally privately owned.

Superewza said:
What about a library/public art gallery?
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Again not public places but places to which the public have restricted access.
 
gramps said:
Definitely not a public place, rather a place to which the public have access - permission would be needed.
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A small correction. As private property, you wouldn't, by law, need to seek permission, but if you were asked to stop and failed to do so, then you they would be within their rights to require you to leave the premises. If you then failed to leave you would be committing a trespass.

There's also a possibility that if they permitted you to take photographs in the hospital then they would be breaching the human rights of any people of whom you did take photographs, following a case in the ECHR in 2009

http://www.out-law.com//default.aspx?page=9764

out-law.com said:
The European Court of Human Rights has expanded the reach of privacy rights by ruling that a photographer breached someone's privacy just by taking a photograph, even though that photograph was never published.


Privacy law expert Rosemary Jay of Pinsent Masons, the law firm behind OUT-LAW.COM, said that the ruling increased the reach of privacy law, but would not create a US-style image right, which is a commercial right rather than a privacy-related one.

The case concerned a newborn baby, Anastasios Reklos, who was put into a sterile unit when born. As a commercial service operated by the hospital his photograph was taken.

His parents objected and asked for the negatives to be given to them. The hospital refused, and the Greek courts would not hear the case.
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I'd say anywhere they can put a lock on the door to keep you out is not a place you have free rights to shoot in.;) Add to that any land that you have no inherent right to access, you'd need to seek permission. Scotland may differ from the rest of the UK in that respect.
 
At least in England, as far as I'm aware, there's no statutory or common law prohibition on taking photographs on private land without the landowner's consent, in the same way that there's no statutory or common law prohibition of writing notes in a book or eating crisps.

Trespass is usually a civil tort, not a criminal offence. The main exceptions are places subject to railway or military bylaws, when you cause damage to property, intimidating those engaged in a lawful activity or disrupting a lawful activity (i.e. aggrevated trespass where you may be required by law to leave by a constable) trespass on Sites of Special Scientific Interest, or if by being there you are in breach of an Anti Social Behaviour Order.
 
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Doog said:
The town is but inside the shops aren't. You are being invited inside to trade.
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But then you do find some rather odd security guards who think they own the photons bouncing off their building and will try to tell you that you can't go anywhere near it with a camera ;)
 
Superewza said:
But then you do find some rather odd security guards who think they own the photons bouncing off their building and will try to tell you that you can't go anywhere near it with a camera ;)
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That's where you tell them where to stick their photons or their buildings for that matter.;)
 
wallyboy said:
mm...i have never had a invitation to shop anywhere.. if a place is frequented by the public is it not a public place
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You're missing the point slightly.

I suppose you should think of it as if you were having a garage sale - the road you live on is more than likely a public place (just like the street with the shops on). However, your garage ('the shop') is your property, and is therefore private. In the garage sale scenario, you're inviting people (whether by vocal advertising or simply passers by walking in) to enter your private property in order to trade, to buy things.

At least, that's my take on it
 
Cyprino said:
You're missing the point slightly.

I suppose you should think of it as if you were having a garage sale - the road you live on is more than likely a public place (just like the street with the shops on). However, your garage ('the shop') is your property, and is therefore private. In the garage sale scenario, you're inviting people (whether by vocal advertising or simply passers by walking in) to enter your private property in order to trade, to buy things.

At least, that's my take on it
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Correct. I think Wallyboy is being pedantic though. I'm sure he understands. It's not exactly hard to understand really. Is it?:shrug:
 
Chr1stof said:
This was my next question along with crowds at say a race track or amusement park?
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The back of the tickets for my local race circuit say:
"All persons attending meetings at Croft Circuit are only allowed to film racing for their own private use. All film & video copywrights whether still or moving belong to Croft Promosport Ltd. Any attempt to use them for purposes other than personal enjoyment will be deemed a breech of copywright."
 
It depends on the situation whether a town centre is private property. Most of Liverpool city centre is public space, but the Liverpool One area of the city is private property, even though there isn't any clearly defined point to let you know you are on private property, the land is there's. I've never heard of anyone being stopped from taking pictures, but they could ask people to stop if they wanted to. I doubt they will, but the possibility is there.
 
DazJW said:
The back of the tickets for my local race circuit say:
"All persons attending meetings at Croft Circuit are only allowed to film racing for their own private use. All film & video copywrights whether still or moving belong to Croft Promosport Ltd. Any attempt to use them for purposes other than personal enjoyment will be deemed a breech of copywright."
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I was thinking more of candid shots of the crowd?
 
gramps said:
Definitely not a public place, rather a place to which the public have access - permission would be needed.
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Its not always as simple as this. Its a very gray area as if the public have access it is classed as "a public place by the right of admission" so you could argue that unless you actually agree to a set amount of rules the the same rights apply to any other "public place"

As i said it becomes a very very gray area.
 
asphotographymk said:
Its not always as simple as this. Its a very gray area as if the public have access it is classed as "a public place by the right of admission" so you could argue that unless you actually agree to a set amount of rules the the same rights apply to any other "public place"

As i said it becomes a very very gray area.
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I'm a very agreeable fellow generally but I'm going to disagree with this, 'right of admission' does not make the venue a 'public place', it makes it a place where the public may have access.
A 'public place' is somewhere like a public street, the now infamous 'village green' or similar - a place to which everyone has generally unlimited and unrestricted access.
A library for example welcomes the public but it is not a 'public place', as there are restrictions on access, if only that it has to be during opening hours! Go into a library and play loud music on your ghetto-blaster and you will soon see how much of a 'public place' it is!
Similarly a theatre welcomes the public but only if they buy a ticket and only if they observe the ticket requirements, it is not a place of unrestricted access to the public.
There have been numerous examples of togs, (and others e.g. evangelicals, street traders etc), 'working' in shopping malls and the like, only to be told to take a hike as it's private property - they, though members of the public, are not allowed unrestricted access due to their activities.
 
Doog said:
I'd say anywhere they can put a lock on the door to keep you out is not a place you have free rights to shoot in.;) Add to that any land that you have no inherent right to access, you'd need to seek permission. Scotland may differ from the rest of the UK in that respect.
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When there is an event being held in the likes of George Square or on Glasgow Green then the council deem these to be 'private places' despite it being written that both belong to the people of Glasgow


wallyboy said:
mm...i have never had a invitation to shop anywhere.. if a place is frequented by the public is it not a public place
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If there is a trader's sign above the door and items displayed for sale then those are the 'invitations'.
 
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Flash In The Pan said:
If there is a trader's sign above the door and items displayed for sale then those are the 'invitations'.
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An unlocked gate has been held in law as an invitation to enter, e.g. your front gate is an invitation to the postman or the local politician etc to enter - though of course they can be requested to leave!
 
gramps said:
'right of admission' does not make the venue a 'public place', it makes it a place where the public may have access.

.
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In the eyes of the the law it often does. As i said it is a gray area.

The whole situation with the Xscape building implementing a published "rules of entry" on photography was that they are legally deemed to be a "public place by right of admission" this means that the rules must be made public and accessible or usual rules of a public place would stand.

This came up when a security guard attempted to stop someone taking photographs of them and it was decided that this could not be enforced as it was a public place and they had not stated any rules of admission. The building is of course privet owned has closing time and people can be asked to leave.

The reality is there is no fixed rule for this as it depends on variables such as published rules.
 
The presumption in law is one of freedom and permission (hence our constitution doesn't lay out what CAN do, Parliament restricts what we can from the presumption of freedom - negative liberty rather than positive liberty in the formulation of Isaiah Berlin). We can assume we can do anything until a notice or official legitimately restricts that (e.g. shooting in a shopping mall). The law on the public highway is such that it is unlikely that someone could stop you unless you were causing other problems.
 
With theme parks you will normally find a bit on them about you agree to their T&Cs upon use. One of these terms will almost certainly be photography and filming are prohibited.

Now you may question this if they then have "photo points" etc but it's basically for when something goes bad they have some way if stopping (too many) images getting leaked to the press and making them look bad. How legally binding that is I have no idea, especially I am yet to see these TCs anywhere despite having worked in one of the big 3 parks for 5 years in the past.
 
I have never been told to stop taking photographs in Liverpool One shopping centre. Just yesterday I was happily snapping away as there have been pianos left around for people to tinker on!

Also, my friend and I went to Blackpool the other week so we could photograph the amusement park. Nobody said a word to us and the security staff even posed for photographs! We weren't exactly incognito either, both of us were setting up tripods and the like.

I would agree though that the waiting room of an accident and emergency department or a library have every right to stop you taking photographs.
 
Just so you know, if I'm ever in a hospital, consent to photograph me is refused.

I hope that helps.
 
norters said:
I have never been told to stop taking photographs in Liverpool One shopping centre. Just yesterday I was happily snapping away as there have been pianos left around for people to tinker on!
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And as I said, neither have I, and I doubt they ever will, but my point was that they could if they wanted to, as nowhere is it made clear you are on private property, but once on Private Property you abide by the owners rules. :shrug:
 
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