In a Philosophical Mood

Andysnap

Andysnap

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Andy Grant
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I was looking today at the shots I've taken with the Yash and I'm not entirely happy. Technically they are ok (well some of them) but the majority are really only snaps, I don't seem to take many shots that stand on their own feet as (dare I say it?) art.

I think this has been brought on by the thread concerning the landscape photographer of the year award which was won and then lost by a member of this forum. I loved his shots (b&w images) but apparently they have been manipulated too much and he had not declared this (hadn't read the rules) and after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing they have removed his crown.

Whatever the debate over the manipulation each of the shots was to my mind art, the sort of thing you see in galleries, and this made me look at my stuff in a different light and try and define what I want from a film image.
This is what I came up with.

a) Technically I want the image to be sharp and clean without much grain/noise.
b) I want detail.
c) I want it to be different from digital, I want it to look like its a film shot.
d) I want it to be a shot that someone, somewhere (even if its only me) will look at and think 'I'd like that on my wall'
e) And I think this is the most important bit, I want to feel like I have done all I can to make sure the 4 above happen and that the final image is as good as it can be.

OK, so that's what I want now, how to get there. :thinking:

I have some thoughts myself but I would like to hear what other people think and what you want from your images. Am I being too up myself? Do I need to get a grip and just take photos? You decide.....:D

Andy
 
Fantastic question.

I've been pondering the same sort things myself, but perhaps not to the same extent as you.

I love just taking pictures, and that won't change, but.......

I aspire to taking photographs that I would want to hang on my wall or in a gallery.

I feel it's about using general photography as a learning tool, gradually introducing and adding techniques and ideas, all to get closer to that goal.

I will get there, but I've got a way to go yet.
 
This is a very personal thing i believe.

The way i see it is very different:

I have no qualms about editing to get the image to look how i want, as long as it doesn't change the tone of the photo too much
I don't really care what medium i took the image on to get the results I'm after (i don't dislike images because i took them on digital as opposed to film)
I get a lot of my pleasure from the way of shooting as well as the results, i often go out and shoot a roll full of crap images but have a lot of fun doing it)

If you want my honest opinion on your question, you should stop trying to separate film and digital, view it as a different way to get the results but don't worry about which one you use. However only you know what images you like and what you want from your own photography

Way i see it is a bit like driving a classic car and a modern car. They will both get you there, but most of the fun is from the experience of driving: the wind in your hair, not knowing if the car will make it in one piece, the sound and feel of the car.

Do what makes you happy, not what you think you should be doing
 
I have only just put my first ever print up on my wall. It took a long time but once I saw it on screen I knew it would print well.


Pembrokeshire Acros and Rolleiflex T July 2012 2-12-Edit-Edit.jpg by menthel, on Flickr

It is a good feeling and worth the endeavour. However, getting it sharp and noise free means a tripod, low ISO film (acros in the case above) and good metering to produce the picture you want. for me that requires being out on my own with no distractions, something I get about once a year.

So, I have failed to answer your question probably but do feel pushing yourself into producing something you are proud of is worthwhile and adds a bit of extra impetus into your photography.

As for the digi/film bit, don't worry. My shot was metered for a certain exposure and then well and truly buggered around with in LR, PS and silver efex!
 
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I wish I had an answer Andy - as the very same question was what led me to hanging up my cameras maybe 20 years ago. I'd spent the previous 13-14 years taking photographs, studio, still-life, landscapes, grip 'n' grins, even weddings (gulp) and burned a not inconsiderable yardage of fillum. I'd something like 8xA4 files of negatives/slides (before the mental ex-girlfriend/bonfire incident) and photo album took up at least 3 packing crates when I moved house. And in all that time, I don't think I EVER took one photograph that I was unconditionally happy with. As a result, while a number of my friends HAVE large prints of shots I've taken from back then, I haven't.

When I returned to photography (as opposed to taking occasional record shots of hills climbed), back in December 2008 I resolved to do something about this - so, with the benefit of the "short feedback loop" and cheap cost per shutter actuation of digital, I set about trying all the techniques that had been beyond economic possibility on film. Eventually, I decided I also wanted to try what I'd learned with film as well - again, just "something about the look" of film I guess. This developed (pun intended) into processing my own films - partly because I just like playing with chemicals and so forth, and partly because frankly, I can't get out to take pictures as often as I'd like, and developing my own film allowed me to spend time on my chosen hobby whilst still being at home to look after my Dad.

I've learned so much from the people on here - both in F&C and elsewhere in the forum, and looking back on my old photos (the ones that DID escape the mental ex-girlfriend bonfire of course) frankly, I was right about them - they stank! These days, on digital I doubt they'd have escaped the first cut, and even on film after a preview scan i'd most likely have ditched them.

When I do go out and take pictures (a sadly rare event these days!) I do still attempt to make every shot perfect in camera, and every shot on the roll a keeper. That goes just as much for digital as film though - I'd be the perfect person to buy a s/h digital camera from I guess... 3027 frames on the 7D since Nov.2010 - and that included shooting 4 weddings as a favour to a friend last year...

What I've managed to sort out is that there are 2 types of photography that I really enjoy - Landscapes, which sadly, due to family commitments, I'm a little hard pressed to get out and work on as the stuff I like shooting is a little far away from home (anything over a 3 hour total expedition time is out sadly) and Still Lifes - My problem in this case being I no longer have a space where I can set up my shots and spend the 5-10 days of faffing around that some of them take to get just how I want them. Problem is, I like some quite elaborate stuff - based on classic Dutch Old Masters etc. and it can easily take me a week to make the right prop. for a shot... For Example, the walls I built for a backdrop had something like 7 coats of plaster until I'd recreated the particular kind of "stucco rustico" finish I wanted... I'm guessing that you've realised - for me photography really is an exercise in control-freakery!

I'm still waiting for a shot that i'm unconditionally happy with though :shrug:
 
I think what we are each trying to achieve with our photography is always going to be something personal and something we find for ourselves. I am sure I am not unlike others here when I say that I have been through the lot of it: still life, landscapes, "strobist" portraits, events, sport, street, etc.

In the end, I found some things I like and some I simply can't understand the appeal of. I particularly went off attending group photoshoots of the "fashion and portraiture" bent, which I saw as little more than crowds of middle-aged men with too much camera gear ogling and clambering around a handful of oddly-dressed young ladies in strange poses.

I have now settled on "street" and "travel" type photography as the areas I enjoy. All I aim for in a photo is for a decent composition and to draw attention to things I find "interesting". If I can tell a story with the photo even better. Aesthetic beauty is pretty low on my list of priorities as long as the photo is interesting. With that in mind, I am actually pretty happy with my photography and although I don't think I have many individual photos I am proud of and that I think are amazing, each set of photos I come back with from each of my travels to somewhere new, I am happy with.
 
Further to my post above, I was thinking about something related the other day when I wound up wandering around the Saatchi Gallery in London. Perhaps it's a bit cynical, but I realised that if it is the art scene you are chasing and you want to measure up with the stuff in galleries, there are a three key tips:

1) It is not about how good any one individual photo is. In fact, the photos can be pretty aesthetically awful by many measures. What matters is not individual photos, but collections of photos.
2) Print your stuff BIG. Really big.
3) Throw in plenty of gratuitous nudity. Artsy people like that.
 
Andysnap said:
... this made me look at my stuff in a different light and try and define what I want from a film image.
This is what I came up with.

a) Technically I want the image to be sharp and clean without much grain/noise.
b) I want detail.
c) I want it to be different from digital, I want it to look like its a film shot.
d) I want it to be a shot that someone, somewhere (even if its only me) will look at and think 'I'd like that on my wall'
e) And I think this is the most important bit, I want to feel like I have done all I can to make sure the 4 above happen and that the final image is as good as it can be.
Click to expand...

And I suspect you want a good range of tonality and a great composition as well...

Two things form this jump out at me. First, you say "a film image" (my emphasis). That could mean you want (at least) one such in your life, which is a great aspiration, or it could mean you want that pretty much each time you take a photo. I think that could be dreadfully debilitating, and far too high a standard. It seems to me the nature of this beast, particularly involving the real world rather than an imagined or constructed one, that our intentions are extremely fallible. Getting the image you want, particularly with film giving you zero feedback, will always be a process of trial and slow learning. I think even the greatest photographers took hundreds or thousands of images for each one that satisfied their version of your criteria.

The second thing, someone has already pointed at, you say "I want it to be different from digital, I want it to look like its a film shot". I would say it is and it will do, but generally subtly so. If that's really in your personal manifesto in a big way, wouldn't you have to give up on the second part of point (a)? Go for big grain, high ISO film? Other approaches aimed at bigging up the "this is not digital" aspect? It feels like this is in conflict with the other aspects.

I don't think I'm saying this very well. You take some really excellent pictures, some of which I'm pretty darn sure I'd be happy to have on MY wall! You want to make better pictures? Keep taking, keep sharing, keep teaching (me), and keep learning!
 
I dunno, its all got a bit heavy recently, I completely missed the LPOY thread, instead I read and commented in several spin off threads like this one that mention it, before reading it tonight.

I don't buy that we should go through life learning and forging our own development through trial and error alone, insulated from the inspiration of pictures shot by others.
I think we (well at least I) need to aspire, to create what someone has already made, and in doing so learn the skills required to create my own.
You can't do that if you choose to be inspired by images that are impossible to recreate without crossing boundaries that define photography, its not a level playing field, you'll be playing with only half the deck and be destined to fail.
Film or Digital, I say in the first instance, choose a genre like landscape or portraiture or whatever, and decide to be the best you can be at that one thing, don't dilute your concentration by spreading it across other genres.
Then choose a few straight photographers of said genre, who's images inspire you, who's image are at the level you aspire to, and copy those guys &/or gals to hell and back.
Then maybe you can create your own stuff, and be happy with what you achieve flying solo.

my 2p....:)
 
Yes i've had many a similar chat with myself as well.

It came down to the right tool for the job, i've whittled down what films i prefer that give me the looks i want that i find i can't get from digital, and also sometimes it's just nice to use an old(er) film camera for a different experience. I rarely separate how i go about using the two though, i'll use them for the same things whether that's experimenting and seeing what things look like photographed or more planned shots where i visualise the shot before i take it.

As for prints it's definitely something i've neglected and many others do as well, if i'm just taking snapshots or something more trivial a print isn't needed, but for more planned shots i should really be thinking about how it will look as a print not a cataloged shot on my computer or flickr fodder. I have had a few 8x10"'s made recently so i can judge how to alter my shots so they print right so i plan to focus more on prints in the future.

Oddly i think i got started taking photos because i wanted to make shots good enough to use as a background on my computer desktop after being inspired by the ones on interfaceLift, though i've never actually submitted anything to that site like i probably thought i would once i got some good ones to share. I did take several i've used as backgrounds but i've had the same one as my background for a year now so i guess i don't think i've taken any better ones since.

I guess i'm slightly unsure what i get out of photography, seeing a shot and thinking about how to make it photographically interesting and capturing it like some hunter stalking an animal, shooting it and having it stuffed to display, collecting photos like people collect stamps.
 
Andysnap said:
I was looking today at the shots I've taken with the Yash and I'm not entirely happy. Technically they are ok (well some of them) but the majority are really only snaps, I don't seem to take many shots that stand on their own feet as (dare I say it?) art.

I think this has been brought on by the thread concerning the landscape photographer of the year award which was won and then lost by a member of this forum. I loved his shots (b&w images) but apparently they have been manipulated too much and he had not declared this (hadn't read the rules) and after a lot of to-ing and fro-ing they have removed his crown.

Whatever the debate over the manipulation each of the shots was to my mind art, the sort of thing you see in galleries, and this made me look at my stuff in a different light and try and define what I want from a film image.
This is what I came up with.

a) Technically I want the image to be sharp and clean without much grain/noise.
b) I want detail.
c) I want it to be different from digital, I want it to look like its a film shot.
d) I want it to be a shot that someone, somewhere (even if its only me) will look at and think 'I'd like that on my wall'
e) And I think this is the most important bit, I want to feel like I have done all I can to make sure the 4 above happen and that the final image is as good as it can be.

OK, so that's what I want now, how to get there. :thinking:

I have some thoughts myself but I would like to hear what other people think and what you want from your images. Am I being too up myself? Do I need to get a grip and just take photos? You decide.....:D

Andy
Click to expand...

I think I have lower standards. There's quite a few of my pics I'd put on my wall!

How do you define art though? There a lot of images on gallery walls that some find rubbish. Martin parr is a good example of a fine art photographer that is marmite for many. If you always feel discontent instead of thinking what's wrong think what you did right and how you want to learn and improve. If you always nitpick without finding anything positive you'll drive yourself nuts!

If they were a friend's photos how would you feel about them? Would you be as critical?

Self criticism that motivates is a good thing. Self criticism that paralyses isn't much help :)

Loads of my photos are crap. Some are ok. Some I'm pleased with. Keep going and the ratio improves :)
 
Andysnap said:
OK, so that's what I want now, how to get there. :thinking:
Click to expand...

Well firstly, new username: "Andyartphotos" of course! :D it's the "snap" that's the problem...

I kid.

It's a very interesting thing you bring up. I think some categories of photography lend themselves to be coined as "art" shots more than others - landscapes, some portraiture and to a lesser extent street seem to pop into mind, although there are countless others. Landscape in particular!

What do I personally want from my images? Before I started playing around with street (which I still struggle with) and street portraiture (which I definitely hope to continue with), I remember seeing images on flickr and fora like TP, and always being drawn to those types of photography more than, say, landscapes. So I decided I wanted to try them, and I did get some images I was happy with, but many that were far from keepers (and I reckon that will always be the case).

So I saw what I was doing wrong with the images (crooked horizons, framing imperfections) - it was nothing that I couldn't fix in post-process, but I wanted to try and get the technique down so I never needed to fix it in post. Some more shots and I'm beginning to get more comfortable with the results I'm producing so far.

All I wanted was to look at the photos and think, "I took that". It's enough for me. It's a very similar feeling to doing DIY and the gratification that comes from doing that (just without the blood, sweat and tears... empty wallet is common to both though!).
 
Well now, what an interesting and erudite response from everyone. Thanks everyone, there's a lot of food for thought here and I shall mull it over during the day and respond in full this evening.

Cheers

Andy
 
srichards said:
If they were a friend's photos how would you feel about them? Would you be as critical?

Self criticism that motivates is a good thing. Self criticism that paralyses isn't much help :)
Click to expand...

robhooley167 said:
This is a very personal thing i believe.


I get a lot of my pleasure from the way of shooting as well as the results, i often go out and shoot a roll full of crap images but have a lot of fun doing it.





Do what makes you happy, not what you think you should be doing
Click to expand...




I love viewing the work that others post on here ( and elsewhere), however I find myself feeling that i cannot match the standards wether that be subject matter or the creative composure ( angle of shot, use od DoF etc) even thouh I have received some very positive feedback ( much appreciated!!) for some of the results i have posted.

Personally it is easy for me to praise someone elses work and/or find some positive in the shot regardless of how "poor" it may be.
By sharp contrast, I often see nothing but fault with my own work so much so that upon seeing a potential shot, I will effectively talk myself out of shooting it simply as I feel it doesn't hold that "Wow, what a shot" factor and inded feel that it will simply be a waste of a frame and be nothing more than a snapshot.

Sadly it is apparent that i am influenced very much by the standards of others, so much so that it provides an obstacle for me to get the enjoyment from photograhy that i often yearn for.

All this said, when i spent several hours with Rob shooting street / architecture around Leeds earlier this year, I thoroughly enjoyed snapping away through nearly 5 rolls of film without thinking too long about the subject content...ie: not long enough to talk myself out of shooting it.

There were plenty of crap results but the fun I had outweighed the "waste" of film.....

Logically I know that trying too hard for the ideal/perfect shot is indeed paralysing my enjoyment of the actual hobby/passtime of photography....something that could do to change!

Maybe it's time to forget all the "rules" that we set ourselves...rules of thirds, sharpness, busy backgrounds etc etc and just shoot and post whatever takes our fancy.

I might add that even shooting digital holds similar hiccups even though not a "waste" of film, it can often be difficult to see the shot more than a snapshot and thus worthy of capturing / keeping.
 
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I do wonder some days if the problem isn't that of familiarity, few photos ever do any time or place justice and since (often) its only you, the photographer, there when you start editing them and that crushing sense of disappointment starts to set in because none of the shots are quite what you seen or expected hoped for.

But you sort out what are in your opinion the best of a bad bunch and post them up and lo other people who weren't there at that place see a half decent maybe even good photo.

Some times I wish I had a mate who had a really good eye and a hyper critical attitude, think craig revel horwood (what, my wife watches it), who, if they said it was a good shot I could say to myself "yeah, that's a good shot. I'd probably never show them said shots for fear of further crushing disappointment but it would be nice to have the opinion.


I must admit, part of the reason I've been using film of late is the act of using the old manual or semi manual cameras is a world away from driving a PC which I do all day, digi cameras feel like clunky computers with a compromised interface and I spend all day using a computer and sometimes its nice to get away from that. I always enjoyed woodwork even if I was just ruining a perfectly good piece of hard wood, I think I'm taking the same approach to ruining perfectly good film.
 
mustanir said:
I particularly went off attending group photoshoots of the "fashion and portraiture" bent, which I saw as little more than crowds of middle-aged men with too much camera gear ogling and clambering around a handful of oddly-dressed young ladies in strange poses.
Click to expand...

Oi!!!;)
 
Blimey, what a lot of interesting, thoughtful and most of all helpful posts.

After spending the day (well some of it, I do have to work occasionally) pondering your comments and also thinking about what I want, in fact need, out of photography, I've come to a few conclusions.

I wrote quite a lot here but when I read it back it was a load of bollax so I deleted it.

Basically it boils down to this.

ENJOY YOUR HOBBY I get too stressed about the shot being perfect every time I go out, stop it.
Spend more time with just me and a camera and an idea and these are the shots to take care over and produce an occasional shot which I really like and can have printed.
Get rid of some kit, I have way too much that doesn't get used and I spend way too much time worrying about taking the right camera/lens/film out rather than ENJOYING IT.

For the moment thanks, I may return with more thoughts later. :D:thumbs:
 
Andysnap said:
ENJOY YOUR HOBBY I get too stressed about the shot being perfect every time I go out, stop it.
Spend more time with just me and a camera and an idea and these are the shots to take care over and produce an occasional shot which I really like and can have printed.
Click to expand...

:agree:

and believe that these changes will help you to enjoy your photography more.

Andysnap said:
Get rid of some kit, I have way too much that doesn't get used and I spend way too much time worrying about taking the right camera/lens/film out rather than ENJOYING IT.
Click to expand...

Perhaps "less is more" and if it eases the pressure of what kit to take out then perhaps a worthwhile move.

However:

Like yourself I too have, what to many people, would be far too much kit and without doubt sometimes get worked up over what to use where and when.
For me, I found a way around the "problem" was to load lots of cameras with film and discipline myself into taking a different one out of the door each time I went out. It's very rare I go out without a camera of some sort in my hand.

This still leaves the issue of what camera to take for a particular trip or event but does mean that i hold onto a collection that i cherish and enables me to always keep them alive albiet some only get a handful of shots through them in any given year.

Just something for you to mull over before you suffocate the classifieds section with tons of gear and give me a massive dosage of GAS!!! :D :D
 
****I have some thoughts myself but I would like to hear what other people think and what you want from your images. Am I being too up myself? Do I need to get a grip and just take photos? You decide.....****

H'mm I'd say when any one feels like this it's best to take a break from the hobby part of photography and come back to it with a fresh mind.
 
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