Important for petrol car owners.

I use 98-RON exclusively for my Golf GTI. It's a 2007 model so of course wasn't designed to run on E10. Not that I ever used E5.

I imagine the cost and pollution involved in me buying a new car and scrapping the old one would be greater than the proposed savings from E10 fuel.
 
omens said:
I use 98-RON exclusively for my Golf GTI. It's a 2007 model so of course wasn't designed to run on E10. Not that I ever used E5.

I imagine the cost and pollution involved in me buying a new car and scrapping the old one would be greater than the proposed savings from E10 fuel.
Click to expand...

The article reckons that there will also be an E10 replacement for super unleaded eventually.
 
yup I heard about this
old cars need to move on
cleaner fuel
 
Mr Bump said:
yup I heard about this
old cars need to move on
cleaner fuel
Click to expand...
I hope it has a better result than the diesel variety. Some cars running on the higher biodiesel content fuel have had fuel systems fail and a green slime found to be clogging it up.
 
Mr Bump said:
yup I heard about this
old cars need to move on
cleaner fuel
Click to expand...
you mean like leaded fuel? oh wait, you can still get lead supplements for classic cars.

plus who is going to pay for all of these new cars? especially in poorer households.

classic tory government, never thinking of those with lower incomes.
 
nilagin said:
I hope it has a better result than the diesel variety. Some cars running on the higher biodiesel content fuel have had fuel systems fail and a green slime found to be clogging it up.
Click to expand...

old polluters
need to be jogged off the road
 
neil_g said:
you mean like leaded fuel? oh wait, you can still get lead supplements for classic cars.

plus who is going to pay for all of these new cars? especially in poorer households.

classic tory government, never thinking of those with lower incomes.
Click to expand...

lower earners arnt entitled to pollute more
 
It's mostly pre 2002 cars that have the issue. Current average car age at scrappage is 14 so those affected are already pretty old.

My lancia hated e5 as it burst non ethanol proof rubber fuel lines. There were also issues with carb diaphragms that werent ethanol proof either. After market suppliers sorted things eventually as they will do for e10.

Easiest answer is to use super unleaded as it's e5 and will be e5 for several years yet.
 
A friend of mine works on petrol turbo engine development at Ford and when we discussed this he said all their calibration work is done assuming they will end up at e15!
 
Willid1 said:
A friend of mine works on petrol turbo engine development at Ford and when we discussed this he said all their calibration work is done assuming they will end up at e15!
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I will have to check what fuels we use is e15 as the petrol turbo engine I am currently developing at Ford is just using current 95 RON, 98 RON for the majority of markets and 91RON for the likes of China.
 
nilagin said:
I will have to check what fuels we use is e15 as the petrol turbo engine I am currently developing at Ford is just using current 95 RON, 98 RON for the majority of markets and 91RON for the likes of China.
Click to expand...

I would have thought all those RON ratings could be mixed to contain e15??

Our discussion was a while ago, when there was a spate of classic cars going up in flames, due to ethanol degradation of petrol hoses in particular.

I think he's currently working on the new 1.5L 3 cylinder turbo motor.

I'll ask him again what the current state of play is.
Hopefully we are off to Santa Pod for the Euro Finals next week - fantastic antidote to all this eco / fuel saving angst :banana: just need some good weather

View: https://youtu.be/fa6AOw--POI


D
 
viv1969 said:
It's late, I can't sleep and I'm hocked up on painkillers, but sod it....yout really are an arsenugget. :-)
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That’s putting it far too politely!!!

If pollution is such a problem then do something that will make a bigger difference rather than screw the average person.

How will people be able to go about their lives including going to work? Not everyone can afford to go out and buy a newer car.
 
Willid1 said:
I would have thought all those RON ratings could be mixed to contain e15??
Click to expand...
The majority of fuels we use are the same E5 as can be bought on UK forecourts. E10 is available across Europe however. Most of the fuels don't contain oxygen, E10 and above will.
E10 could see a small drop in mpg, so I would expect E15 to be worse still in that respect.
More details below.
http://www.123premier.com/news/e10-petrol---magic-fuel-lowers-co2-but-reduce/17476/newsdetail.aspx
 
cambsno said:
That’s putting it far too politely!!!

If pollution is such a problem then do something that will make a bigger difference rather than screw the average person.

How will people be able to go about their lives including going to work? Not everyone can afford to go out and buy a newer car.
Click to expand...
Normal E5 fuel will still be available, but won't necessarily be available on all forecourts and although there is no reason that there should be a difference, there isn't likely to be any control over the forecourt pricing so it could well be that E5 will become a more expensive fuel and probably dropped from supermarket forecourts where alot of people fill up anyway.
 
neil_g said:
Which is nothing like what I said.

So rather than just a vague comeback, what's your solution to the issue I raised then. Who's going to pay for all of these new cars, especially for those that can only afford a sub £1000 motor?
Click to expand...

They'll have to take public transport. Modal shift is something that governments have constantly blathered on about. Forcing people out of private cars and onto buses and trains.
 
Mr bump is a classic electric car evangelist, unprepared to hear any argument other than everyone should be driving one. Which is fine as he only does short journeys for which they are perfect.
 
srichards said:
They'll have to take public transport. Modal shift is something that governments have constantly blathered on about. Forcing people out of private cars and onto buses and trains.
Click to expand...

Aside from the public transport systems in this country being barely able to cope with its current level of usage, not everyone lives and works in towns/cities within easy reach of public transport.
 
srichards said:
They'll have to take public transport. Modal shift is something that governments have constantly blathered on about. Forcing people out of private cars and onto buses and trains.
Click to expand...
Car is a 25 min journey to work. The same journey by public transport is an hour if all running plus a 15 minute walk. Sometimes that isn't practical if you live and work outside that London.

Then there's the regular trips to clients. I'm lucky I'm only 45 mins away currently. Impossible to get to with public transport so thats an 8 mile taxi from the nearest train station...

As said in the electric thread, what we need is the infrastructure for everyone to charge at home, which isn't there currently, the ability to charge at more than 15 miles per hours charge and light batteries with huge capacity so the cars have a usable range other than for city work. For city works and a small proportion of owners, electric cars work.

Until then the easiest solution outside of short city journies is better cleaner engines using petrol and diesel because the range and infrastructure is in place. I've no problem with cleaner fuel being available, but the government need to incentivise it, less tax say making it 10p/litre cheaper, whilst keeping the existing fuel for those cars that can't use it. That will drive the demand
 
It's chicken and egg partly. There isn't any public transport to some locations because there is no demand as everybody has a car because there is no public transport... I should be a legal requirement for all industrial estates to have regular round the clock bus services that are sufficient to meet the needs of a good chunk of people that work there. That alone would make a big difference.

The new Hyundai Kona is a 300 mile range car. They're not city cars any more. Even without home charging a trip to a supermarket once a week to rapid charge is probably all you need. Add in work place charging in workplaces that allow people with no home charging priority over chargers and again you've reduced the need for petrol/diesel significantly. Most of the obstacles are fairly easily solved with a bit of common sense and a bit of planning.
 
neil_g said:
Which is nothing like what I said.

So rather than just a vague comeback, what's your solution to the issue I raised then. Who's going to pay for all of these new cars, especially for those that can only afford a sub £1000 motor?
Click to expand...

life moves on Neil, the cost of preserving and improving our environment for future generations needs to be shared by all.
The issue we have like you say are older cars are generally run by lower income people and hence probably contribute to hight levels of pollution.
i don't have an answer but as i have often said the buck stops with this generation of car drivers, paying the price for years of mismanagement and people making poor choices of the vehicles they drive.
 
Byker28i said:
Mr bump is a classic electric car evangelist, unprepared to hear any argument other than everyone should be driving one. Which is fine as he only does short journeys for which they are perfect.
Click to expand...

not at all, i am not pro electric at all, i am anti pointless pollution, diesels being run arround town because of poor vehicle choice.
HGVs belching out and not investing in better technologies.

This country is following gainfully the american model the car is king and there is no alternative, childhood ashma in towns and cities is on the rise, we now have cities so polluted they actually exceed WHO levels.
And we consider ourself a forward thinking nation?
 
Usual short-sightedness imo.
I wonder how long it'll be before they realise just how dangerous it is pumping these fumes out the back of cars ?
We will soon be a "Stoned" nation and not give a monkey's :D
It (Bioethanol) can be made from very common crops such as hemp, ..
Click to expand...
and the crops fail? then what ?
Bioethanol is a form of renewable energy that can be produced from agricultural feedstocks.
Click to expand...
Yes you are quite right, I am not taking this seriously...

Mr Bump said:
people making poor choices of the vehicles they drive.
Click to expand...
Oh I consider very carefully what car I buy, that led me to my last purchase of a 3.2 V6 :thumbs:
 
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srichards said:
They'll have to take public transport. Modal shift is something that governments have constantly blathered on about. Forcing people out of private cars and onto buses and trains.
Click to expand...
The busses around Southampton are absolutely terrible for emissions. I'd wager much worse than several cheap petrol cars (comparing several short journeys vs the all day use of the bus).

Plus try getting public transport in somewhere like Ringwood or Ferndown, both reasonable size towns on Hants/Dorset border. No trains as branch was closed by Beeching back in the 60s. And busses to other large towns for work such as Bournemouth can easily add almost 2 hours to a journey.

Should public transport be a viable option, absolutely. But it generally sucks and is comparably more expensive. Bus return from where I live to Southampton (10 min drive) works out much more expensive in the long term than fuel and parking. The train from Southampton to Basingstoke where I work is £15/day compared to £30/week in fuel. Even after car running costs the train is not practical from a cost point of view.
 
Mr Bump said:
life moves on Neil, the cost of preserving and improving our environment for future generations needs to be shared by all.
The issue we have like you say are older cars are generally run by lower income people and hence probably contribute to hight levels of pollution.
i don't have an answer but as i have often said the buck stops with this generation of car drivers, paying the price for years of mismanagement and people making poor choices of the vehicles they drive.
Click to expand...
Poor choices driven by Gov you mean? Wasn't long ago diesel was their sweetheart..

I can't remember exactly but I seem to recall 4 star and unleaded running side by side for a pretty long time. To make this change financially viable for a lot of households a period to allow second hand cars of the new type to filter down.
 
The thing is for short journeys there’s a wealth of choice, including green choices, city cars aren’t terrible, electric vehicles are perfect and public transport is efficient in cities.

For medium range journeys outside cities, electric cars are viable but expensive, and they need to break the habits of generations of car buying for convenience.

For longer journeys there’s still only one viable option. Public transport is inefficient and expensive, electric isn’t an alternative solution yet. We’re stuck with ICE
 
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oh and I forgot to add to my public transport rant, my town is perfect for a sub 5 min Southampton commute by train (ignoring cost for the moment). Except despite being on the Weymouth/Waterloo mainline our station has been downgraded so that we now only get a fraction of services we did previously.

Its like we're constantly being encouraged to go public transport but they're always making it unnecessarily difficult
 
srichards said:
They'll have to take public transport. Modal shift is something that governments have constantly blathered on about. Forcing people out of private cars and onto buses and trains.
Click to expand...

The infrastructure needs to be there first. Ok for those in London, or similar, not for many. I live outside of Cambridge. Very, very difficult and expensive to rely on public transport. I bike to work sometimes but not so much in winter. Public transport too slow to allow wife to use it with school runs etc. I only do 6k a year in a cheap 06 plate, why get a newer car that I can’t afford anyway?

Busway is a rip off. The other day we got it to the next town, 4 of us. 6 miles and £4 each, single. Would have cost the same to have got a cab.
 
Mr Bump said:
life moves on Neil, the cost of preserving and improving our environment for future generations needs to be shared by all.
The issue we have like you say are older cars are generally run by lower income people and hence probably contribute to hight levels of pollution.
i don't have an answer but as i have often said the buck stops with this generation of car drivers, paying the price for years of mismanagement and people making poor choices of the vehicles they drive.
Click to expand...

I take it you don’t eat meat, as meat production causes a lot of pollution? Also you dont fly anywhere and want all motorsport and civil flying banned?
 
srichards said:
It's chicken and egg partly. There isn't any public transport to some locations because there is no demand as everybody has a car because there is no public transport... I should be a legal requirement for all industrial estates to have regular round the clock bus services that are sufficient to meet the needs of a good chunk of people that work there. That alone would make a big difference.

The new Hyundai Kona is a 300 mile range car. They're not city cars any more. Even without home charging a trip to a supermarket once a week to rapid charge is probably all you need. Add in work place charging in workplaces that allow people with no home charging priority over chargers and again you've reduced the need for petrol/diesel significantly. Most of the obstacles are fairly easily solved with a bit of common sense and a bit of planning.
Click to expand...

Would never work. What about people who start at 6am while others start at 3pm. People have different home times and need to be home for things like school. Also people work from all over, on our business park people live in many villages plus other towns like Ely, Newmarket, Huntingdon, Bedford etc... would need at least 20 buses an hour leaving if not more. Who pays for that?
 
Marc said:
Aside from the public transport systems in this country being barely able to cope with its current level of usage, not everyone lives and works in towns/cities within easy reach of public transport.
Click to expand...
Takes me 10 minutes to drive to work and same back home. Public transport would take me just over an hour. I go to the gym on my way home from work on early shift, or on the way to work for a late shift. I can't do that on public transport.
I have no idea what time I would need to start my journey to get me to work for a 7:00am start, but I doubt I could leave after 5:30am. That would be a daft move for what is a 10 minute journey. Cycling isn't an option either as I can't carry my food and drink for the day and my gym bag on a bike. Plus I am not exactly going to feel like a heavy weights workout after an 8 mile bike ride, or an 8 mile bike ride after a heavy weights workout, especially on leg day.
So yes you are right public transport isn't going to suit a lot of people and I don't exactly work "off the beaten track".
 
srichards said:
They'll have to take public transport. Modal shift is something that governments have constantly blathered on about. Forcing people out of private cars and onto buses and trains.
Click to expand...
Let me guess - do you live in a city by any chance?
Meanwhile, and in the real world...
Our farm is 4..5 miles from the nearest village, where the bus stop is.
No buses after 8.p.m weekdays, no buses at all on Sundays.
Even if the private bus Company wanted to run a service near to our farm, the roads aren't wide enough for them..
So, everyone needs their own transport, and not just any transport, because in the winter they need a very capable 4WD car. These cars use a lot of fuel and they do pollute, but the vast majority of people living in rural areas can't afford a new, low emissions 4x4.
And even if they could, the roads aren't wide enough for 2 cars to pass, without usually scraping against hedges, not something that most people want to do in shiny new cars.
 
Fumes in rural areas aren't such an issue anyway. It's built up areas with a lot of traffic that would benefit the most. That's where the worst pollution is so that's where you need the improvements. It doesn't mean anyone has to carry their sheep on a bus :)
 
srichards said:
Fumes in rural areas aren't such an issue anyway. It's built up areas with a lot of traffic that would benefit the most. That's where the worst pollution is so that's where you need the improvements. It doesn't mean anyone has to carry their sheep on a bus :)
Click to expand...
I believe that in fact the pollution that causes the biggest issue is at sea, even though there is nobody around to breathe it locally, it causes problems elsewhere.
And whether or not you believe that fumes in rural areas aren't much of an issue, changes to legislation that improve the air quality in cities (where you have a choice of using public transport) affect people living in rural areas equally.
In fact, it's worse for people in rural areas, lower wages mean that high fuel tax creates greater hardship (and especially when they have to drive 4WD cars that only do 20 to the gallon) and have to pay extortionate rates of VED, that was allegedly introduced to discourage people from unecessarily running chelsea tractors to take their little darlings to school 'safely'. Doubling the rates probably doesn't affect the people who can afford £70K plus for a school run car, it does affect those who earn a lot less than minimum pay.

We're now getting this nonsense with farm machinery - leave a modern tractor or combine on tickover for a few minutes and it goes into limp mode, all in the name of anti-pollution!
 
Mr Bump said:
lower earners arnt entitled to pollute more
Click to expand...


They probably don't, they can't afford the fuel to do the miles, so often the car is a necessity only used for work,
take that away and you will paying for them to sit at home
 
Byker28i said:
Mr bump is a classic electric car evangelist, unprepared to hear any argument other than everyone should be driving one. Which is fine as he only does short journeys for which they are perfect.
Click to expand...

Only in words. He clearly drives and ICE car, well he drove one extremely slowly on motorway, got rear-ended and is now looking for the same to replace it!

He should live up to his words and COUGH UP for EV!

You have to back up your words with actions!
 
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