I'm very proud of my son

[Garry Edwards]

As it happens, the Pre Trial Review for the firearms certificate appeal was today. The actual hearing has been set down for 5 days, probably to be heard in November. Apart from the problem of limited Court time availability, most of our witnesses are farmers, and they can't sit around at a Court between August and November because of the various harvests.

The police have now submitted their statement of case and skeleton argument, which would qualify for a fiction award. It is contradicted by their own forensic evidence.
They have also found an expert witness who has reported that the sound of Bill's car doors shutting is in fact the sound of shotgun blasts, even though the sound is over 4 million times quieter...
We now have to commission our own expert report, which will cost many thousands on top of the legal costs.

The problem of course is that the police have unlimited financial resources, if I had a suspicious mind I might think that they are trying to deter us but increasing the costs.

My experiences may explain why I sometimes get annoyed with the police apologists on this forum...

 

[Ulfric M Douglas]

It baffles me what the police are thinking, what is their motive for this injustice?
The bad guys were the thieves in the van, end of story : why are the police struggling and persevering to rob your son of the right outcome?
Baffling.

 

[odd jim]

Have they given the air rifles back yet??

 

[Flashman]

The problem of course is that the police have unlimited financial resources,

So the 'cuts' conveniently don't apply when they're covering themselves then...!

Funnily enough Garry, I was at a lunchtime meeting with your solicitor today! He wouldn't say a thing about your case of course... very professional!!

 

[odd jim]

So the 'cuts' conveniently don't apply when they're covering themselves then...!

Funnily enough Garry, I was at a lunchtime meeting with your solicitor today! He wouldn't say a thing about your case of course... very professional!!

Well they don't really have unlimited resources, I can vouch for that! Just a lot more!

 

[Garry Edwards]

Have they given the air rifles back yet??

They gave the guns and rifles to ME last June, they were all damaged

So the 'cuts' conveniently don't apply when they're covering themselves then...!

Funnily enough Garry, I was at a lunchtime meeting with your solicitor today! He wouldn't say a thing about your case of course... very professional!!

I actually met him for the first time today, it was a pleasure to meet him - but not to park in Harrogate

Well they don't really have unlimited resources, I can vouch for that! Just a lot more!

I fully appreciate that front line police officers have very limited resources. But we're not dealing with front line police officers here...

 

[odd jim]

They gave the guns and rifles to ME last June, they were all damaged

I actually met him for the first time today, it was a pleasure to meet him - but not to park in Harrogate

I fully appreciate that front line police officers have very limited resources. But we're not dealing with front line police officers here...

Are we talking a lot of damage?

 

[Garry Edwards]

Are we talking a lot of damage?

I know what you're saying about money, and while it might seem that it's senior police officers pushing this, ultimately the issue surrounding his licence will be down to the licensing officer themselves, who In most forces is a civilian. But that's by the by, police officer budgets, SCPO budgets and "Support" Staff budgets all come from the same pot.

The damage amounts to £3700.
Firstly, the police officer who seized them put them all together in the boot of his car, and after leaving them there unattended, and complete with ammunition for 2 1/2 hours, took them to a police station where they were stored in what must have been very damp conditions. They were clearly also damaged in transit, he didn't bother to put them in gunslips.

What I'm saying about police resources is that the police seem to find an unbelievable amount of money to spend on legal fees and paper pushers, even if they can't find enough for front line policing

 

[Byker28i]

I hope that is adds to the court argument and costs.
The trouble is the police deal with 'undesirables' very day so in my experience treat everyone as guilty first and foremost. It's not unknown for 'mistakes' to be made that support the police opinion. I've had experience of that, waited over a year to come to court then have it immediately thrown out by the magistrate as laughable why it ever came to court. Again conflicting evidence by the police wrecked their case in approx 15 mins.

Unfortunately it's human nature. They believe the party is guilty and look for corroborating evidence.

However, you must stay away from emotive statements and stick to facts. I know it's hard but that's the way it works. It's not perfect but mostly our justice system is ok.

 

[odd jim]

Let's not forget - it's not the police who take people to court it's the CPS. If the CPS haven't looked at the evidence properly (the same evidence they authorised the charge on) these conflicts can arise. The police only gather the evidence.

Though it's different in Gary's case as it's not a criminal trial, it's an licensing appeal.

 

[Garry Edwards]

I hope that is adds to the court argument and costs.
The trouble is the police deal with 'undesirables' very day so in my experience treat everyone as guilty first and foremost. It's not unknown for 'mistakes' to be made that support the police opinion. I've had experience of that, waited over a year to come to court then have it immediately thrown out by the magistrate as laughable why it ever came to court. Again conflicting evidence by the police wrecked their case in approx 15 mins.

Unfortunately it's human nature. They believe the party is guilty and look for corroborating evidence.

However, you must stay away from emotive statements and stick to facts. I know it's hard but that's the way it works. It's not perfect but mostly our justice system is ok.

Costs is the problem here.
There is of course no legal aid available for this.
The police costs are incredibly high - over £15K so far, and that's just for preparing their paperwork, a 5 day hearing will add a lot more.
We have our own representational and preparation costs, but possibly because we're spending our own money, we're spending a lot less.
If we lose, the police will be awarded costs against us.
If we win, we can only possibly get an award of costs if we can prove that the police acted maliciously, and regardless of what we may feel about their conduct, it is very difficult to prove malice.

As it happens, I've worked hard all my life and have been lucky too. But most people simply can't afford to fight this type of case.