I'm sorry, another "how much do i charge?" thread.

foodpoison

foodpoison

Suspended / Banned
Messages
6,253
Name
Sean
Edit My Images
Yes
This is my first paid job, and I have no idea what to charge.
The actual shoot consisted of a 10 minute drive there, 45 minutes with the horses, and 10 minute drive back.

I then supplied the client with 6 recommended, fully edited (although low resolution photos), just so the client got a taster. On the disc I also supplied the other 45 unedited, low res photos, in case they had any special requests. The total time for editing was about an hour.

The client got back to me and asked for 3 photos in particular, and then 6 more edited in case she wants more printed at a later date.
The second batch took about an hour to do.

The editing done: brightening, contrast edit, sharpening, cloning out unwanted details, and generally a tidying up.

The client is asking for FULL copyright to the images. Considering I'm just starting out in the photography business, I don't mind too much about my copyright and more about my name getting around, but I do feel I should charge a bit more for these.
The client is also going to be wanting 3 prints, which I can get done at my work, but I will still be charging.

Final breakdown:
Travel time - 20 minutes
Shoot - 45 minutes
3 extensively edited photos
6 less edited photos
3 A4 or A3 prints (I can price these on my own)
A CD with high resolution photos on
Full copyright permissions

I can figure out prices for the prints on my own, and I was thinking £2 per photo for the copyrights, but then I'm stuck!

Thanks for taking the time to help me :) :thumbs:
 
Well considering you obviously don't want to charge too much id go along these lines:

1. Travel time - 35p a mile
2. The shoot - hourly rate around £20-30
3. Editing - £15-20 an hour
4. CD - £15
5. Fully copyright on all 9 photos - at least £50
 
So, £15 for the shoot, about £15 for the editing, £40 for the photos, and £5 for the CD?
I think that sounds quite reasonable...

I don't think she wants to pay me too much, since she quoted £25 in a brief conversation before we organised it.

So perhaps I'll charge for the shoot at £15 and then the photos with full copyright at say, £45. Thats £60 in total, with the costs for the prints added on top of that.
 
She's getting a bargain if you charge her so little. But if you're happy with that then put it to her like that.

Does she have stud horses? because I think if she does she will be making a hell of a lot of dosh from your pics. In this case I think you really need to charge a lot more for full copywright, IMO of course ;)
 
Shes actually buying the photos to give to her friend as a wedding present.
I'll have a chat with my dad, and perhaps I'll lay out what the recommended costs for hire are:

Here are my estimates:

Travel time - 35p a mile - so around £5
Shoot - 45 minutes - £40 an hour, so £30
9 extensively edited photos - Editing, £20 an hour, about £25
A CD with high resolution photos on - Not exactly expensive, so perhaps throw it in with the copyright
Full copyright permissions - Probably like, £50 per photo in the real world? :thinking:

So show her that, and say, "here's what I'll do"?
 
does that include travel home as well?
 
But if she has stud horses ... She could just be spinning you a line to get the work cheaper :shrug: No doubt she will have rung around for quotes KWIM? The wedding present thing would go past me unsuspecting .. but asking for full copyright and the images on disk. WHy would she want that just for a wedding gift?
 
I do trust her, shes the mum of a friend.
I've known her for several years, hence why I'm reluctant to, lets say, milk her dry :p

Sorry, what is a stud horse?
And she hasn't persé asked for full copyright, she has asked for the photos to be put on a CD so that if her friend wants more printed in the future, she can. Which in the eyes of a photographer, is full copyright. However, to her, she thinks its something normal. I had to tell her about the Copyright, Patent and Designs act so that she was aware that the copyright existed.
 
Oh I see, well that's a different thing all together :lol: In that case quote what you are comfortable with hun ;)

Stud = male horses she rents out to naughty mares to make babies :naughty:
 
on the bill show as a large discount, so if she tells anyone, then you have a fall back to regular rates and wont be known as the "cheap tog":thumbs:
 
doesnt matter if your just starting out-dont be done like a kipper.

Usually if someone wants full copyright you are just commisioning for the time-pro togs charge between 400 and 1000 a day with editing at about 50 an hour.

I would charge her at least £300 in total. If she bought images from alamy with royalty free it would cost her that for 6 images-let alone her own actual images.
 
Perhaps I should quote her regular photographer's prices, and then quote her less because she's a family friend?
I don't want her thinking I'm pretentious, because if I charge her more than she's expecting, she could go around saying, "I got ripped off. He was only a kid and charged me a ridiculous amount!"
 
foodpoison said:
Perhaps I should quote her regular photographer's prices, and then quote her less because she's a family friend?
I don't want her thinking I'm pretentious, because if I charge her more than she's expecting, she could go around saying, "I got ripped off. He was only a kid and charged me a ridiculous amount!"
Click to expand...
Yeah, but age doesn't come into it. The fact is you are (I'm sure) producing some quality images taken with expensive kit and making sure they are all suitably PP'd. All that takes up time, money and effort. And she ends up with a great wedding present. So she should pay accordingly.

Maybe she should have a look at what other togs would charge her. I like the idea of giving her a proper bill with proper rates and then giving her a family friend discount.

These things are always awkward with friends. Put it this way though, my dad got a family friend's kid to design his company website. He paid a few hundred quid, but still felt it was extremely good value and gave him a bit extra. Don't sell yourself short.
 
Thanks for the advice. I'll put towards her a proper invoice with proper prices, to shock her into thinking, "Holy cow, these photos could have cost me a lot!"
And then give her the discount.
Thanks again guys!
 
That's your best plan. Make them aware of what the photos *should* cost, then provide a discount because you're just starting out / she's a family friend / the planets are in alignment / you're in a good mood. And don't sell her the copyright cheaply. Never sell the copyright cheaply.
 
You don't need to sell Copyright to give her the ability to print them afterwards - you can just give her a reproduction licence for non-commercial use.

Something along the lines of: "You are licenced to reproduce these images for non-commercial use in both digital and print form. Any commercial use (unless agreed prior to reproduction) will be deemed unlicenced and shall subject to further charges at 120% of NUJ published rates. The copyright of the image remains with [enter your name]" should suffice.

This means you can continue to use the images yourself. Selling copyright means you no longer have any rights to use the image.
 
Sounds awfully cheap what people are quoting thus far.

Usually prints go for at least £5 (I've seen £20 for a 4x6)
Time on site is anywhere between £50 and £300 per hour (depending who you use)
Time at the "office" is usually cheaper (2/3 to 1/2)

If its a commercial thing, and not a big discounter (freebie) or a friend then anywhere in excess of £100 for the day + prints.

However, maybe you should have sorted that out first?
 
SimonTALM said:
You don't need to sell Copyright to give her the ability to print them afterwards - you can just give her a reproduction licence for non-commercial use.

Something along the lines of: "You are licenced to reproduce these images for non-commercial use in both digital and print form. Any commercial use (unless agreed prior to reproduction) will be deemed unlicenced and shall subject to further charges at 120% of NUJ published rates. The copyright of the image remains with [enter your name]" should suffice.

This means you can continue to use the images yourself. Selling copyright means you no longer have any rights to use the image.
Click to expand...

Ahh, thanks for clearing that up.
That is in fact what I wanted to do :)
 
oldgit said:
Sounds awfully cheap what people are quoting thus far.

Usually prints go for at least £5 (I've seen £20 for a 4x6)
Time on site is anywhere between £50 and £300 per hour (depending who you use)
Time at the "office" is usually cheaper (2/3 to 1/2)

If its a commercial thing, and not a big discounter (freebie) or a friend then anywhere in excess of £100 for the day + prints.

However, maybe you should have sorted that out first?
Click to expand...

I SHOULD have sorted it out first. I can't believe I didn't.
I was thinking £5 per photo all inclusive of everything as an introductory price, simply because this is the first time I've done anything like this, and I didn't really know how to go about it.
 
Just to put a different slant on this.

This client has commissioned you to shot images that you would not otherwise have taken. Copyright should really be included in the fee. It's not like buying from your library where you would want to hold on to the rights for these images. They only exist because she is paying you to take them

You really shouldn't be charging for editing time. Sorry but a commercial snapper should be taking photos that are correct and therefore wouldn't need to be edited. The conversion from RAW to whatever file format you supply should again be factored into your hourly/daily rate.

What that rate is, depends on where you want to place yourself in the market, what you feel you offer and what backs up those claims. :)
 
dazzajl said:
Just to put a different slant on this.

This client has commissioned you to shot images that you would not otherwise have taken. Copyright should really be included in the fee. It's not like buying from your library where you would want to hold on to the rights for these images. They only exist because she is paying you to take them

You really shouldn't be charging for editing time. Sorry but a commercial snapper should be taking photos that are correct and therefore wouldn't need to be edited. The conversion from RAW to whatever file format you supply should again be factored into your hourly/daily rate.

What that rate is, depends on where you want to place yourself in the market, what you feel you offer and what backs up those claims. :)
Click to expand...

Those are very good points, and you have put a well needed factor into the equation.

How does £5 per photo sound in total? I think its reasonable?
9 photos - £45, about 3 1/2 hours in total...
 
All that matters here is that you are happy with the price you charge. As you said, you are somewhat compromised here by the fact that you're negotiating this all after the event. Take the £45 and move on.

There is far more value in the things you've learnt doing this job than the money you'll make anyway. :thumbs:
 
At least bargain hunters will still get you work, and your prices can creep north pretty quickly.
 
Has she got the photos?
 
*shamefully nods*
I did say I was a noobie at this! I've made several cock-ups

I think this has been a valuable lesson in how to go about it next time:

-Organise a quote upfront
-Don't give them the photos until they've paid, or at least paid a deposit!
 
I find sometimes working for friends can be a problem. I find it hard to ask for money anyway.. .and with friends its worse :|

I mended an aquaintance's computer once.. as I left he just said thank you, and that was that. Didnt ask how much he owed me or anything.. and me being me just left. :nono:


He probably wasnt being nasty but it just didnt occur to him as we knew each other.

In future... I am giving terms up front.......... friend or no friend.
 
If she's got the photos, she's probably just waing for the bill, which you don't appear to have sent yet.
 
Nah, she said once she had the photos, she'd contact me for prints.
Which she hasn't done, and it has been 3 days.
I reckon she has done the prints herself and scarpered with the photos!

I've set up a business account on my Dad's computer and so he'll write me out the invoice.
I'm still going for the shock treatment of "It could have cost you over £300, be thankful you know such a talented, fairly paid photographer like me!"
 
Janice said:
I find sometimes working for friends can be a problem. I find it hard to ask for money anyway.. .and with friends its worse :|

I mended an aquaintance's computer once.. as I left he just said thank you, and that was that. Didnt ask how much he owed me or anything.. and me being me just left. :nono:


He probably wasnt being nasty but it just didnt occur to him as we knew each other.

In future... I am giving terms up front.......... friend or no friend.
Click to expand...

Me too. I often set out a price, and then half way through go, ":gag: nah don't worry about it!"

Then at home that night, I go ":bang:"

I find that the british tend to accept what they pay for. There are very few who REALLY haggle. If you set out a price, people will say, "Yeah! That's fine!"
and then complain about it alone later :p
 
I must say 3 days isnt long. If she is a busy mum, housewife, horsewoman... 3 days goes by in a flash.

Id give her at least 10 days I think. :shrug:
 
Janice said:
I must say 3 days isnt long. If she is a busy mum, housewife, horsewoman... 3 days goes by in a flash.
Click to expand...

Not to mention waiting for the friend to say if she wants any pictures..
 
foodpoison said:
I find that the british tend to accept what they pay for. There are very few who REALLY haggle. If you set out a price, people will say, "Yeah! That's fine!" and then complain about it alone later :p
Click to expand...

I do that. Except I usually can't believe I've been offered so much for what I consider to be very little, so I keep my mouth shut :D
 
Janice said:
I find sometimes working for friends can be a problem. I find it hard to ask for money anyway.. .and with friends its worse :|

I mended an aquaintance's computer once.. as I left he just said thank you, and that was that. Didnt ask how much he owed me or anything.. and me being me just left. :nono:


He probably wasnt being nasty but it just didnt occur to him as we knew each other.

In future... I am giving terms up front.......... friend or no friend.
Click to expand...

Been there, done that Janice. Whenever I am asked to mend or repair a computer now by a friend, I always say "I charge X amount per hour, but as you are a friend I will give you a discount of Y amount". Then make an appointment, rather than just turn up, take an invoice with you, then when you have finished write in the amount, and hand it to them. They usually get the message then.
 
Best Business Practices for Photographers: Review -- American book, available quite cheaply.

The discount-for-a-friend approach should get you out of the no-payment-at-all dilemma, but our aim should be maximising our benefit from the job, not thinking of more ways to cut our own throats.

Carrying a rate-card, with the same info on't Web, saves hassle and lets peeps know what they're in for. If you have to think on your feet and quote, a general rule is that you can only devote 100 days a year to snapping (all the rest being taken up with related, non-snapping activities), so your day rate should be 1% of your annual income (or your client's, or the average local wage if you're just starting out, or have hangups about charging too much).

I'm overly cautious when having to think on my feet. I quoted £500 for a 4-hour job recently "for a friend", based on the likelihood that I'd provide one self-breeding CD only. The friend of "another friend" got the gig, charging £70/hour plus £15/disk. If she sells 15, she'll have charged more than me but I should add that that's for video, which is what the client wanted and assumed my cams are video! Darned sight less PP for video, but Joe Public knows nowt. So, supply substandard stuff quickly and cheaply, or educate the customer? The customer often wants every kid smiling rather than natural expressions and natural-looking lighting, so the law of diminishing returns strikes again.

I no longer bother with webpages and disks of samples. Supply 600 pixel wide unwatermarked images of party snaps and you're guaranteeing lost sales. I've had thumbnails nicked for websites and a 300 pixel image can certainly be commercially useful.

I did party snaps for a friend of my sister's once, most of the guests were doctors and dentists, there was a band and hired marquee. I was told I would be paid but left it to their discretion and was eventually given £40, which didn't even cover my processing costs (Ah! Fuji Reala). People know and absorb the costs of other aspects of their lives, so it's up to us to let them know our costs in celebrating their significant events.
 
Just bought that book you recommended Photon, thanks for that.
While I was at it, I also got understanding exposure. Couldn't hurt!

There are several things that I haven't taken into consideration here, and I'm really, really grateful to have you guys here to guide me.
I'd be absolutely lost in all things photography without this forum, and so, (its unlikely that the whole forum will read this) but I'd just like to express my gratitude.
Thanks very much :)

I'm going to give her until next wednesday, and then if she hasn't contacted me, send an invoice her way. I did the shoot last friday, and it will have been about 10 days. I think thats fair, but if anyone disagrees, please say so.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top