If you're no good, should you give up?

[Deleted member 21335]

Simple. Don't start taking on paid work until you have lots of work in your portfolio, along with lots of professional equipment, including backups. Insurance and everything else you need.

With respect, I think you are making some assumptions. I don't have a thick wedding portfolio, no, but I do have professional equipment, backups and Insurance. I am not playing at this.

I will say it again, the reason I started this thread is NOT about wedding photography. It was portraiture related. I am confident and happy with shooting weddings. This shows from my initial meeting with potential clients, through to the comments I have received by clients and guests after the wedding.

 

[Box Brownie]

Hi Gareth

Firstly congrats on getting some weddings under your belt and already be booking ahead into 2015, even 2016, well, done Like others I would not want to even 'go there' in regard to doing weddings! Clearly folk like wjat you are providing and have confidence in you to 'get it right' but from what I have read in the business section B&G's can be the most critical when it comes to photography as a service and whether their expectations are met or not?

In regard to your issues with portraits/portraiture...............as I see that side of the craft there are many, many ways of creating the portrait (formal, environmental, headshots, journalistic, presentational et al) and IMO no different to serving the weddings market you have to offer the style that works well for you and the client.

As I read your OP and your replies, it struck me that you are confusing the lack of confidence in reagrd to your creative skills and that fact that you are already supplying a quality of product that folk are willing to pay for! With respect to the 'strongest man' thread...........you are being self critical in regard to how your idea ended up in the final image and that self appraisal is healthy but needs to be tempered by knowing that you can improve on each iteration attempt you make to improve but in the meantime someone liked it enough to pay you to use it in the current form. Please do not be too anal & possesive about your creations ~ keep at the artistic/aesthetic development but do not lose sight of that you have done and will continue to make money and be in demand to 'do the job'.

So, I agree that confidence seems to be the stumbling block and as noted by other we all in all walks of life have ups & downs and to use the expression the mojo gets lost I have been through the loss of mojo myself where I have not picked a camera for months...............then I do for example just go to a lovely garden and just "see" things anew and just take what catches my eye!

Where do I come from to offer my sage advice lol) and pearls of wisdom. Well, I have been taking pictures on and off since something like the 1960's and more latterly (oh for say 20 years) family and friends have said how nice my images are.......................eventually last year plucked up the courage to approach a Gallery curator about exhiibiting and for the month of April 2014 I did so (there is a thread about that hereabouts) suffice to say I was greatly encouraged by the sales (especially those that bought more than one print and the two I ended up sending to Australia ). The day job does affect how much time I can devote to developing that side on my fledgling business but I hope to make something of it as I run towards retirement in the next few years (if I should be so lucky to retire that soon ).

The other thing that happened recently was that I was asked by old friends of my other half if I would take pictures at their Ruby Wedding celebration tea party.......as a favour.......I told/reminded them what I normally photograph and it is not people and tried to set their expectations and that I would do my best to please them plus I stated that I would be the arbiter of what I presented them with because above all else I like to create quality. This was agreed..................I am just finishing what I hope they will be pleased with and this consists of approx 100 images and a couple of videos captured on the 5D3 of the speeches (all to be supplied on USB stick). I am well pleased with the way it/they turmed out and would interested to see if anyone wants a prints or sessions.....................for the record these would be paid for! At the outset I had the confidence that I could produce something worthwhile but my uncertainty meant that I wanted to manage their expectations Edit ~ oh, at the closde of the event (we were one of the last to leave) and our host commented to my other half how unobtrusive and professional I had been.

 

[Sharky]

I honestly don't believe I should judge my success by client satisfaction. I have seen people be happy with wedding images that I would hate to have delivered. Of course i want them to be happy with mine and that, when they are paying, is the number one priority, however, it isn't for me, a mark of personal achievement. Neither is the income from it.

While it isn't a strict measure of 'success' take solace that if your clients feedback is good and they are happy you're doing well. It might not be the personal standard you aspire to but its valuable nonetheless.

 

[Alastair]

While it isn't a strict measure of 'success' take solace that if your clients feedback is good and they are happy you're doing well. It might not be the personal standard you aspire to but its valuable nonetheless.

What would you consider to be a success? - if it's not pleasing the client?

There are some very odd comments on this thread.. ..

 

[Deleted member 21335]

What would you consider to be a success? - if it's not pleasing the client?

There are some very odd comments on this thread.. ..

It was me who originally said that, Alastair. Do you see that as a strange comment?

I know what I mean, but seem to struggle to articulate it. Yes, if the wedding client was over the moon with the images I delivered, then the wedding photos would be a success for sure. However, I feel some people see that to mean that what they are doing is enough and it would be easy to get complacent and stop there. I am not happy with where I am, even though my previous clients have been happy. I have a standard I want to attain and I am persevering to get there. It is difficult as it means I am rarely satisfied, even though my clients (wedding couple) may be happy. Does that make more sense?

 

[boyfalldown]

What would you consider to be a success? - if it's not pleasing the client?

There are some very odd comments on this thread.. ..

Not really. I think that if all you have is the old 'if the clients happy, thats the main thing' you've dodged a bullet.

 

[woof woof]

I've just looked at the thread you've linked to..

1. It's a fantastic image - really well done, creative, the sort of image that people like to look at, in a style that there is a big market for; and

Yup. I really like that picture.

Serious question...

I have no one in real life like a girlfriend or partner I can ask or discuss with so am welcoming opinions here.

I think you're a really good photographer who is maybe just a little too self critical and a little to willing to be put off by the opinion of others.

Stick with it

 

[Alastair]

Not really. I think that if all you have is the old 'if the clients happy, thats the main thing' you've dodged a bullet.

That's not my meaning. Quality is meeting or exceeding the client's expectations. If the client is happy that implies that you've at least met their expectations. If there's a mismatch between what you want to provide (because you think it isn't good enough) and what the client wants to buy (because they think it is) the product/service isn't necessarily going to get better from the client's perspective with the improvement you want to make. The risk I see is that if improving was to mean a change of look/style in the photography you may technically improve but still failt to deliver the look/style that they thought they were buying. And to focus to heavily on the technical side of the photography may also neglect the other areas of the service being provided.

I think Gareth needs to look deeper at what it is that is that's the problem - looking at the limited examples available on Flickr I see a style that's very popular being very well executed. What I can't see is the overall package that these form part of. Is the professional standard that Gareth is unhappy about purely technical image taking, or is it the service elements?

Workshops have been mentioned, but sometimes a professional mentor is a more useful approach. Someone take the wider view and be there over a longer period of time.

 

[riddell]

With respect, I think you are making some assumptions. I

I'm not making any personal assumptions about you, but I am making assumptions drawn from experience and knowledge about how many startup photographers operate.

Getting back on topic do you feel the the issue is people communication skills? Lighting knowledge? Translational skills in bringing out the best in a person?

 

[Sharky]

What would you consider to be a success? - if it's not pleasing the client?

There are some very odd comments on this thread.. ..

As Gareth has said, that wasn't my quote as such and i was replying to what he'd said which should of been plain to see as i quoted him.

I honestly don't believe I should judge my success by client satisfaction. I have seen people be happy with wedding images that I would hate to have delivered. Of course i want them to be happy with mine and that, when they are paying, is the number one priority, however, it isn't for me, a mark of personal achievement. Neither is the income from it.

 

[sunnyside_up]

I really, really wanted to be a really good portrait photographer, yet it seems that every time I try, I fail.

Hey Gareth

Simple question - in your own opinion, what do you think is letting you down or 'failing' you? I can't see it to be honest - I think you deliver some fantastic imagery, you've got a wonderful eye and you know what and how to capture something that means more than just a snapshot. I can't imagine how you could think that you could fail as a portrait photographer?

 

[Carlh]

At your weddings Gareth, get some portraits of the guests in the evening. I love taking photos of the guests as it allows me to do some practice on some styles without compromising the Bride & Grooms photos which are of course the primary subjects.

Do you have any children? Practice on those. Use your wife. Spot the neighbours weeding in the garden, pop over to them and say, "do you mind if I get a photo of you with your cutting-sheers/tools" etc.. Get them anyway you can.

You can obviously take a good photograph (as evident in your threads), dont let one or even ten bad C&C threads deter you - I know how that feels, I could give you a page full of bad C&Cs where I dont know what I have done wrong - sometimes it does feel very personal, but that is because of the passion you have put into the image, it can hurt.

I have had some good comments too, they help me bounce right back - but always, i (you, everyone) get that voice in the background saying its not up to standard - that's good - USE it. Use it to push your photography further to produce better photo's fella. You can do it. You KNOW you can! Just keep at it. You'll never be happy though - EVER. You'll always want to better it and that is the whole point. Now go take some photos and stop bitchin'

 

[Iris]

I am right there with you Gareth, trying photography commercially was a big mistake for me, if I don't have confidence in myself then why on earth would I expect others to do so and as a result I have out myself back into the 'hobbyist' bracket. I hope you get over this blip, you need to if you want to make it work commercially

 

[Phil V]

I'm not making any personal assumptions about you, but I am making assumptions drawn from experience and knowledge about how many startup photographers operate.

Getting back on topic do you feel the the issue is people communication skills? Lighting knowledge? Translational skills in bringing out the best in a person?

With respect Paul. Gareth isn't some half arsed newbie, you should maybe have checked out his portfolio before offering what turns out to be misplaced guidance.

 

[Deleted member 21335]

Again, apologies for not quoting everyone but trying to address some of the important points.

I'm not making any personal assumptions about you, but I am making assumptions drawn from experience and knowledge about how many startup photographers operate.

Getting back on topic do you feel the the issue is people communication skills? Lighting knowledge? Translational skills in bringing out the best in a person?

Fair point about not making personal assumptions, but with a little work you could have found my recent wedding work to see where I am at with them, although I understand you may not have time. As for your second point, I think I have really good communication skills with the subject, my OCF lighting knowledge is only theoretical. I KNOW what light does, just have never really given lighting with flash a proper go. Perhaps I should put time and effort into learning this next? Most stuff has been shot with available light.

Hey Gareth

Simple question - in your own opinion, what do you think is letting you down or 'failing' you? I can't see it to be honest - I think you deliver some fantastic imagery, you've got a wonderful eye and you know what and how to capture something that means more than just a snapshot. I can't imagine how you could think that you could fail as a portrait photographer?

Thank you Bethy. Hard to answer your question really. I think, looking at the photographers I admire, I would love to produce imagery worthy of their portfolios. As it stands, it all leaves me a little cold and bored. I honestly don't know.

With respect Paul. Gareth isn't some half arsed newbie, you should maybe have checked out his portfolio before offering what turns out to be misplaced guidance.

Appreciate the comment Phil.

 

[melaniejane]

Gareth, firstly I will say that from what I've seen of your photos, you're doing great - I've seen some really lovely images on your posts.

I can totally sympathise with feeling that you're not good enough, etc. I think it's something that a lot of creative people suffer from. I've been taking photos for as long as I can remember, and selling them for the last 10 years - but I still have my doubts as to whether I'm as good as I can be, etc. In the past, I've concentrated on the 'easier' route of stock photography, where I don't have a customer to deliver to, as such. I just upload the finished photos to a website and people buy them if they like them (which, thankfully, they seem to!). However, I've recently started to do portraits and it is a whole different ballgame. Having a paying customer to deliver to has again raised all sorts of doubts in my mind, but I think it's just something that you have to push through.

With regards to portraits, if you can't find anyone willing to sit for you, why not ask some of the couples you've shot weddings for if they like a free post wedding shoot? Or add it to your wedding packages that they get a free shoot within a few months of the wedding? At least you'd be working with people you already know, and who like your work, etc and who hopefully will have a bit more patience, giving you chance to nail the shot. By doing it after the wedding, rather than before, hopefully you'll all be more relaxed, but also (worst case scenario) you're not jeopardising the actual wedding shoot if it doesn't go great.

If you don't want to do that, why not just advertise on Gumtree to do some free portrait shots, just to get some experience? Just keep it fairly anonymous so that it doesn't detract from your 'brand'.

 

[simonblue]

Try not to judge your photos against to others to much,after all your looking for own stamp on your work

 

[cowboy]

Hire a model.

I know you've said model work bores you, but if you hire someone to pose for some portrait practice and it all comes out wrong (it won't ) you only have yourself upset.

You've paid for their time so it doesn't matter what the images are like, you have no pressure to please a paying client.

Half a day with a half decent model will give you the photos you want and give you the confidence boost so you know you can do it.

A professional model should know how to pose and will chat to you so you'll both be more at ease, once you get into your stride you'll be giving more direction and becoming more relaxed leading to even better photos.

You could ask a friend or colleague but then you'd be putting yourself under a little more pressure to get perfect images.

Oh, your a photographer so you'll always find fault with your photos

 

[gill]

Gareth, I'm far from a pro but I think your photos are superb, and I always look forward to seeing new posts from you. I shot my first wedding recently (which I'll be posting some of here for C&C in the near future) and your two recent wedding posts were a huge inspiration for someone like myself. I suffer frequently from periods of doubting in myself both in my hobbies and in my professional (non-photographic) life but I keep plugging away and things seem to work out in the end. Never give up!

*EDIT: Sorry, I've made that all about weddings when you've repeatedly said that's not what's troubling you - the point I meant to get across is that I think you have an obvious talent for this, and I'm positive with your efforts applied in the correct way you can nail your portraits too.

Also, on a lighter note, this thread has reminded me of the superb Cyanide & Happiness...



Cyanide & Happiness @ Explosm.net
Read more at http://explosm.net/comics/3433/#JLvrxOpJPfCWpYAJ.99

 

[mattd85]

Never let your head hang down. Never give up and sit down and grieve. Find another way. And don't pray when it rains if you don't pray when the sun shines.

-Richard Nixon

 

[riddell]

With respect Paul. Gareth isn't some half arsed newbie, you should maybe have checked out his portfolio before offering what turns out to be misplaced guidance.

Likewise with respect, whilst I may not have checked out his portfolio by his written words he is coming across as a 'half arsed newbie' and I'm afraid that he has compounded it by this statement -

my OCF lighting knowledge is only theoretical. I KNOW what light does, just have never really given lighting with flash a proper go. Perhaps I should put time and effort into learning this next? Most stuff has been shot with available light.

Seriously what kind of a professional portrait photographer exists without having an extremely good knowledge of flash, plus all the kit to back it up?

Now I'm not here to personally attack the OP, I'm here to help and the reality is that sometimes people have to get real. I see countless newbie photographers with this dream of being a natural light photographer simply either because they don't know how to use and or can't afford decent flash units.

Fine if you prefer natural light. Fine if you intend to use it on a shoot, but as a professional if its not available, which it often isn't in this country, then you need backup plans a] b] and c]

What happens when you are booked by a client and you discuss the shoot and intend to shoot outside, but even though its nice and sunny it may be windy or too cold and the ladies never want to stand outside in that that. So you have to move inside. What do you do without flash? Limit yourself to high ISO window light shots? What then happens when the client tells you they have an absolute stunning room with no windows that they want to be photographed in, what do you do? Any professional would go to his car and pull out a few lighting heads.

This is all about being professional and operating in a professional manner. Its very, very common no matter how much you discuss a shoot to turn up on site and find things totally different or to find the client has been thinking about things over night and come up with a new idea and therefore you need the skills, knowledge and kit to go ahead in this new direction.

Why am I so hot on this? Because early on I got burnt several times by 'photographers' claiming this, claiming that only to find out to my cost how they couldn't actually do that or lots of other things when reasonably asked. Therefore I judge people on their words how they carry themselves as a photographer as much as their portfolio. Newbie photographers carry themselves in a totally different way to genuine professionals, its miles apart, so easy to spot by a professional.

OK, so getting back on track, with all the above - to the OP, yes its extremely vital that you go out get some quality flash heads Elinchrom, Bowens etc. at least 2, but budget to have at least 4 very shortly along with a selection of softboxes and reflectors etc. And also get yourself some bounces and flags and then learn how to use everything. Buy an old book on studio lighting. Forget any of the modern one, especially those with 'digital' in the title. Learn how to use and control light. Get a proper light meter. Start with inanimate objects and then progress to models, start with TFP models, then progress to paying for experienced models. Learn and study. Ask for and take and accept critique from professionals.

If you really have skill and really want to do it then you will achieve your goal.

 

[Phil V]

Likewise with respect, whilst I may not have checked out his portfolio by his written words he is coming across as a 'half arsed newbie' and I'm afraid that he has compounded it by this statement -


Seriously what kind of a professional portrait photographer exists without having an extremely good knowledge of flash, plus all the kit to back it up?

Now I'm not here to personally attack the OP, I'm here to help and the reality is that sometimes people have to get real. I see countless newbie photographers with this dream of being a natural light photographer simply either because they don't know how to use and or can't afford decent flash units.

Fine if you prefer natural light. Fine if you intend to use it on a shoot, but as a professional if its not available, which it often isn't in this country, then you need backup plans a] b] and c]

What happens when you are booked by a client and you discuss the shoot and intend to shoot outside, but even though its nice and sunny it may be windy or too cold and the ladies never want to stand outside in that that. So you have to move inside. What do you do without flash? Limit yourself to high ISO window light shots? What then happens when the client tells you they have an absolute stunning room with no windows that they want to be photographed in, what do you do? Any professional would go to his car and pull out a few lighting heads.

This is all about being professional and operating in a professional manner. Its very, very common no matter how much you discuss a shoot to turn up on site and find things totally different or to find the client has been thinking about things over night and come up with a new idea and therefore you need the skills, knowledge and kit to go ahead in this new direction.

Why am I so hot on this? Because early on I got burnt several times by 'photographers' claiming this, claiming that only to find out to my cost how they couldn't actually do that or lots of other things when reasonably asked. Therefore I judge people on their words how they carry themselves as a photographer as much as their portfolio. Newbie photographers carry themselves in a totally different way to genuine professionals, its miles apart, so easy to spot by a professional.

OK, so getting back on track, with all the above - to the OP, yes its extremely vital that you go out get some quality flash heads Elinchrom, Bowens etc. at least 2, but budget to have at least 4 very shortly along with a selection of softboxes and reflectors etc. And also get yourself some bounces and flags and then learn how to use everything. Buy an old book on studio lighting. Forget any of the modern one, especially those with 'digital' in the title. Learn how to use and control light. Get a proper light meter. Start with inanimate objects and then progress to models, start with TFP models, then progress to paying for experienced models. Learn and study. Ask for and take and accept critique from professionals.

If you really have skill and really want to do it then you will achieve your goal.

I just can't. I'm sorry, I'm out!

 

[boyfalldown]

Seriously what kind of a professional portrait photographer exists without having an extremely good knowledge of flash

this is what I meant @gazmorton2000 when I said

I don't mean becoming so full of yourself you seem to loose all self awareness,

 

[danny_bhoy]

this is what I meant @gazmorton2000 when I said

Best use of the Multi-Quote button since it's introduction IMO.

 

[petersmart]

Serious question. Whilst we have been here before, I can't help but think that I should pack in what I am trying to do. I seem to be getting somewhere with wedding photography. I have shot 2 this year with a third in October, then 6 confirmed for 215 and another enquiry today for 2016. The two posted on here have had what I would call positive feedback and whilst I am happy with that aspect, I really, really wanted to be a really good portrait photographer, yet it seems that every time I try, I fail. So then I put off shooting for fear of failure and for fear of letting down my subject with crap, underwhelming photographs. Because if I shoot someone, I must give them the images. Then they are out in the world, even if I don't like them or other people don't like them. Then word spreads that I'm just not very good. I feel at a bit of a loss tonight with the whole thing and, in some ways, wish I hadn't got so many weddings booked so I could just pack the whole thing in again. But then I think that those seem to be going well so I'm at a terrible crossroads. I have no one in real life like a girlfriend or partner I can ask or discuss with so am welcoming opinions here.

I think you're talking CRAP!

We all feel that from time to time and the answer is to take a break (if you can) and relax.

Your photos are GOOD and often imaginative and the portraits you do have on your site are very good and I think most customers would be very pleased with them.

And certainly willing to pay for them.

Or do you simply want to end up taking an endless number of studio shots which all end up looking the same?

It is possible to take excellent studio shots which are different but not if you rely on them to pay your bills.

Then you have to supply what your customers want.

And if you're not happy with the photos you've taken of your subjects then take them again - if possible.

Also how do you take your portraits and how many?

These days I usually only take my family but then I take loads looking for just that one shot which really stands out.

You haven't really told us a great deal about how you shoot.

EDIT I LOVE the one of the Amazon boxes looking at the daisy - made me laugh - and something I would not have thought of.

2nd EDIT: I've just gone through your site in greater depth and while some of the shots ARE crap the portraits are 90% EXCELLENT!

So stop doubting yourself and just keep shooting!

 

[The23rdman]

Don't use clients to practice with, or even anyone who has any expectation other than helping you to practice. That's the only logical solution to this.

As for the thread title... of course not. If everyone gave up because stuff was difficult, we'd still be living in caves hunting animals with bits of flint tied to sticks. In fact.. we wouldn't even be doing that, because flint knapping is difficult... we'd be extinct.

This exactly. Think about what you want to achieve from a shoot and find/pay someone to sit for you to gain experience and experiment. you may decide to spend a few months working on interaction with the client, then on story to the shoot, make-up, etc etc. When you've got to the point where you feel like a portrait photographer offer to do some shoots for people you aren't paying and progress to paid work.

however tempting it is don't take paid work until you feel you can control the shoot.

 

[The23rdman]

and, for what it's worth, I'm very average and know that I'm very average, but I never ever let anyone I am shooting think that.

 

[Phil V]

This exactly. Think about what you want to achieve from a shoot and find/pay someone to sit for you to gain experience and experiment. you may decide to spend a few months working on interaction with the client, then on story to the shoot, make-up, etc etc. When you've got to the point where you feel like a portrait photographer offer to do some shoots for people you aren't paying and progress to paid work.

however tempting it is don't take paid work until you feel you can control the shoot.

Unfortunately, it's lost here, but this is exactly what Gareth has been doing. His crisis of confidence (if I may be so bold) is about self belief more than skills, practice or ability.

 

[The23rdman]

Unfortunately, it's lost here, but this is exactly what Gareth has been doing. His crisis of confidence (if I may be so bold) is about self belief more than skills, practice or ability.

I get that, I really do, Phil. Gareth is a decent photographer. My suggestion is to allow him to work on controlling more of his shoots, which will give him confidence.

 

[Phil V]

This also boils down to the same point as a recent thread:
Should we be 'practicing' on paying clients.

The obvious answer is 'No'.

But there's subtle variations which make the 'No' look silly.

Should we constantly be pushing ourselves to improve as artists? Yes

Should we rest on our laurels and never move out of our comfort zone? No

Should we endeavour to give our customers something unique to them, or something we can easily achieve and which might be considered stale? I'd say Unique!

The problem with all this of course is that it's easy for a drive by forum poster to read it as if we're being reckless on the clients time, or that we're using clients to 'practice on'.

 

[The23rdman]

This also boils down to the same point as a recent thread:
Should we be 'practicing' on paying clients.

The obvious answer is 'No'.

But there's subtle variations which make the 'No' look silly.

Should we constantly be pushing ourselves to improve as artists? Yes

Should we rest on our laurels and never move out of our comfort zone? No

Should we endeavour to give our customers something unique to them, or something we can easily achieve and which might be considered stale? I'd say Unique!

The problem with all this of course is that it's easy for a drive by forum poster to read it as if we're being reckless on the clients time, or that we're using clients to 'practice on'.

I couldn't agree more. It'a great to push yourself, but you have to have self-belief to be willing and able to do that. If not, you're not pushing your limits but instead arguing for your limitations.

 

[Deleted member 21335]

Just been having a read through all the replies, some of them twice and even a third time. There are too many for me to multi-quote and respond to but I will try my best.....

Gareth, firstly I will say that from what I've seen of your photos, you're doing great - I've seen some really lovely images on your posts.

I can totally sympathise with feeling that you're not good enough, etc. I think it's something that a lot of creative people suffer from. I've been taking photos for as long as I can remember, and selling them for the last 10 years - but I still have my doubts as to whether I'm as good as I can be, etc. In the past, I've concentrated on the 'easier' route of stock photography, where I don't have a customer to deliver to, as such. I just upload the finished photos to a website and people buy them if they like them (which, thankfully, they seem to!). However, I've recently started to do portraits and it is a whole different ballgame. Having a paying customer to deliver to has again raised all sorts of doubts in my mind, but I think it's just something that you have to push through.

With regards to portraits, if you can't find anyone willing to sit for you, why not ask some of the couples you've shot weddings for if they like a free post wedding shoot? Or add it to your wedding packages that they get a free shoot within a few months of the wedding? At least you'd be working with people you already know, and who like your work, etc and who hopefully will have a bit more patience, giving you chance to nail the shot. By doing it after the wedding, rather than before, hopefully you'll all be more relaxed, but also (worst case scenario) you're not jeopardising the actual wedding shoot if it doesn't go great.

If you don't want to do that, why not just advertise on Gumtree to do some free portrait shots, just to get some experience? Just keep it fairly anonymous so that it doesn't detract from your 'brand'.

Thanks for throwing some ides into the mix and of course, the compliments on some of my photos. I will definitely have a think about different ideas of getting people to have portraits shot.

Hire a model.

I know you've said model work bores you, but if you hire someone to pose for some portrait practice and it all comes out wrong (it won't ) you only have yourself upset.

You've paid for their time so it doesn't matter what the images are like, you have no pressure to please a paying client.

Half a day with a half decent model will give you the photos you want and give you the confidence boost so you know you can do it.

A professional model should know how to pose and will chat to you so you'll both be more at ease, once you get into your stride you'll be giving more direction and becoming more relaxed leading to even better photos.

You could ask a friend or colleague but then you'd be putting yourself under a little more pressure to get perfect images.

Oh, your a photographer so you'll always find fault with your photos

I think the problem I have with hiring models (again) is that you end up with the photos of the popular internet models in your portfolio, the same models that a lot of other photographers have. I guess it's up to me to do something completely different with them though to try and make them stand out more. Still on the fence about doing it again.

Gareth, I'm far from a pro but I think your photos are superb, and I always look forward to seeing new posts from you. I shot my first wedding recently (which I'll be posting some of here for C&C in the near future) and your two recent wedding posts were a huge inspiration for someone like myself. I suffer frequently from periods of doubting in myself both in my hobbies and in my professional (non-photographic) life but I keep plugging away and things seem to work out in the end. Never give up!

*EDIT: Sorry, I've made that all about weddings when you've repeatedly said that's not what's troubling you - the point I meant to get across is that I think you have an obvious talent for this, and I'm positive with your efforts applied in the correct way you can nail your portraits too.

Appreciate the compliments on the weddings. Thank you.

Likewise with respect, whilst I may not have checked out his portfolio by his written words he is coming across as a 'half arsed newbie' and I'm afraid that he has compounded it by this statement -


Seriously what kind of a professional portrait photographer exists without having an extremely good knowledge of flash, plus all the kit to back it up?

Now I'm not here to personally attack the OP, I'm here to help and the reality is that sometimes people have to get real. I see countless newbie photographers with this dream of being a natural light photographer simply either because they don't know how to use and or can't afford decent flash units.

Fine if you prefer natural light. Fine if you intend to use it on a shoot, but as a professional if its not available, which it often isn't in this country, then you need backup plans a] b] and c]

What happens when you are booked by a client and you discuss the shoot and intend to shoot outside, but even though its nice and sunny it may be windy or too cold and the ladies never want to stand outside in that that. So you have to move inside. What do you do without flash? Limit yourself to high ISO window light shots? What then happens when the client tells you they have an absolute stunning room with no windows that they want to be photographed in, what do you do? Any professional would go to his car and pull out a few lighting heads.

This is all about being professional and operating in a professional manner. Its very, very common no matter how much you discuss a shoot to turn up on site and find things totally different or to find the client has been thinking about things over night and come up with a new idea and therefore you need the skills, knowledge and kit to go ahead in this new direction.

Why am I so hot on this? Because early on I got burnt several times by 'photographers' claiming this, claiming that only to find out to my cost how they couldn't actually do that or lots of other things when reasonably asked. Therefore I judge people on their words how they carry themselves as a photographer as much as their portfolio. Newbie photographers carry themselves in a totally different way to genuine professionals, its miles apart, so easy to spot by a professional.

OK, so getting back on track, with all the above - to the OP, yes its extremely vital that you go out get some quality flash heads Elinchrom, Bowens etc. at least 2, but budget to have at least 4 very shortly along with a selection of softboxes and reflectors etc. And also get yourself some bounces and flags and then learn how to use everything. Buy an old book on studio lighting. Forget any of the modern one, especially those with 'digital' in the title. Learn how to use and control light. Get a proper light meter. Start with inanimate objects and then progress to models, start with TFP models, then progress to paying for experienced models. Learn and study. Ask for and take and accept critique from professionals.

If you really have skill and really want to do it then you will achieve your goal.

Whilst you may make some valid points, I very much disagree that 2 or 4 lights are needed. There are many of the top end 'rockstar' photographers advocate the use of one light and demonstrate it's ability on countless occasions. I am definitely not a "half arsed newbie" though, but thanks for that label.

I think you're talking CRAP!

We all feel that from time to time and the answer is to take a break (if you can) and relax.

Your photos are GOOD and often imaginative and the portraits you do have on your site are very good and I think most customers would be very pleased with them.

And certainly willing to pay for them.

Or do you simply want to end up taking an endless number of studio shots which all end up looking the same?

It is possible to take excellent studio shots which are different but not if you rely on them to pay your bills.

Then you have to supply what your customers want.

And if you're not happy with the photos you've taken of your subjects then take them again - if possible.

Also how do you take your portraits and how many?

These days I usually only take my family but then I take loads looking for just that one shot which really stands out.

You haven't really told us a great deal about how you shoot.

EDIT I LOVE the one of the Amazon boxes looking at the daisy - made me laugh - and something I would not have thought of.

2nd EDIT: I've just gone through your site in greater depth and while some of the shots ARE crap the portraits are 90% EXCELLENT!

So stop doubting yourself and just keep shooting!

Appreciate your comments and for taking the time to look at my Flickr stream. In response, no I don't want to end up shooting many studio based portraits that have the problem of looking the same with different subjects. Whilst that has it's place, it isn;t for me at the moment.

I get that, I really do, Phil. Gareth is a decent photographer. My suggestion is to allow him to work on controlling more of his shoots, which will give him confidence.

Thanks Dean. Appreciate your comments.

Unfortunately, it's lost here, but this is exactly what Gareth has been doing. His crisis of confidence (if I may be so bold) is about self belief more than skills, practice or ability.

You may be so bold. I still need to get more practice though and further the ability! I am in the process of arranging a male friend and a female friend to sit for some portraits for me. Nothing too contrived, nothing fancy. Just hopefully some honest portraiture. Oh but I am going to be using MF film. Will see how this pans out.

 

[Tobers]

This is a very interesting thread that goes to the heart of a lot of our photography lives.

Reflecting on my own experiences, I am very rarely satisfied with my pictures, and as a result I am constantly trying to improve. There lurks a "give it up, can't improve" element which I have resisted effectively so far, but there have been a number of very close calls. But, the "you can do better" urge always wins through for me.

It may be that you don't have such a strong "could do better" urge. There's nothing wrong with that. It's easy to lose sight of the thing that you love about just simply taking a picture.

As others have said, how you measure your own success is very important. I've had a chance to re-evaluate my own success criteria recently and become much more sanguine about the whole thing. My original success criteria was to get a picture in the papers. Then it was to get a picture on the back page of the Sun. Then it was to get a picture on the front page of the Sun. These were all goals that I set on myself, pressure I put on my performance all on my own with no-one else telling me what to do.

I've now realised that the amount of pressure I've brought onto my own shoulders is totally unnecessary and is actually counterproductive. What I really enjoy doing is standing in the middle of nowhere, preferably in northern Scotland, with a camera and tripod and a bag containing a drink and some sandwiches. I may never show the output to anyone, but the act of taking the picture has taken me to a wonderful place and brought me into the environment and increased my consciousness with that environment.

However, saying that, I'm currently thinking about the World Cup 2018. I promised myself I wouldn't do another one, but after Brazil this year the craziness of it all is fading and I am now thinking of all the things I could have done better. I was very p***ed off with a lot of the stuff I missed or messed up. I want to make amends. But I know I'll make other mistakes or miss other shots in 2018, but it's worth a go, right? And it's the bloody World Cup dammit - who wouldn't want to cover that?

So when you are thinking of your own work, and whether it's good enough, rest assured that there are many others thinking the same about their output. My only advice is to work out what it is about this picture-taking lark that you enjoy, and do more of that. Making money from it is only one (very biased) measure.

 

[riddell]

Whilst you may make some valid points, I very much disagree that 2 or 4 lights are needed. There are many of the top end 'rockstar' photographers advocate the use of one light and demonstrate it's ability on countless occasions.

Sure. Of course you can use just one light, but can't always use just one light. Just as I could demonstrate its ability on countless situations I can demonstrate just as many where I need a lot more.

And that's the really important thing - as a professional you need to be able to deal with any situation. Way too many newbies cling onto these real simple ideas such as natural light, one light, continuous light because they are either scared of, don't know how to use or can't afford a proper studio setup.

I started a shoot yesterday with 2 lights, 2x1m softboxes, basic 45 degrees. As the shoot progressed and the clothing changed I had to make about 3 or 4 changes. I'm still shooting the same shoot, but now its reflective white clothing. I now have 5 lights, 2 on the background with reflectors. A bounce light with a different reflector off the ceiling. A 2m softbox on one side and a tiny 50cm softbox on the other side as well as introducing 2 bounce boards and 2 black bounces.

Glancing over I'm utilising 13 stands and 23 clamps.

That's the point. That simple setup worked yesterday, but now the exact same clothing in a different coloured material needs a different and more complex setup. And its not just the one light thing, its the modifiers and bounces having a lot of effect on the image too.

 

[theurbanclown]

real simple ideas such as natural light

Simple? Really?

 

[Alastair]

@riddell - but it's horses for courses, try walking onto the average wedding with 13 stands, 26 clamps, 5 lights, 4 bounces and a background.. and managing all of that single-handed.

If you can't do it without the gear, can you say that natural light/one-light is simple? "one light" is a misnomer, because everyone I've seen that practices it well is combining that one introduced light with at least one ambient light source plus natural reflective surfaces, ambient diffusion and available shade.

 

[melaniejane]

Riddell - there are some excellent natural light photographers out there, who use only natural light. They don't use flash, not because they are unable to, but because it does not suit the way they shoot or their aesthetic. Their skill at mastering natural light is no less than the skill required to master flash. Their customers come to them because they like how their images look. There is nothing wrong with aspiring to be one of these photographers.

 

[simonblue]

Likewise with respect, whilst I may not have checked out his portfolio by his written words he is coming across as a 'half arsed newbie' and I'm afraid that he has compounded it by this statement -


Seriously what kind of a professional portrait photographer exists without having an extremely good knowledge of flash, plus all the kit to back it up?

Now I'm not here to personally attack the OP, I'm here to help and the reality is that sometimes people have to get real. I see countless newbie photographers with this dream of being a natural light photographer simply either because they don't know how to use and or can't afford decent flash units.

Fine if you prefer natural light. Fine if you intend to use it on a shoot, but as a professional if its not available, which it often isn't in this country, then you need backup plans a] b] and c]

What happens when you are booked by a client and you discuss the shoot and intend to shoot outside, but even though its nice and sunny it may be windy or too cold and the ladies never want to stand outside in that that. So you have to move inside. What do you do without flash? Limit yourself to high ISO window light shots? What then happens when the client tells you they have an absolute stunning room with no windows that they want to be photographed in, what do you do? Any professional would go to his car and pull out a few lighting heads.

This is all about being professional and operating in a professional manner. Its very, very common no matter how much you discuss a shoot to turn up on site and find things totally different or to find the client has been thinking about things over night and come up with a new idea and therefore you need the skills, knowledge and kit to go ahead in this new direction.

Why am I so hot on this? Because early on I got burnt several times by 'photographers' claiming this, claiming that only to find out to my cost how they couldn't actually do that or lots of other things when reasonably asked. Therefore I judge people on their words how they carry themselves as a photographer as much as their portfolio. Newbie photographers carry themselves in a totally different way to genuine professionals, its miles apart, so easy to spot by a professional.

OK, so getting back on track, with all the above - to the OP, yes its extremely vital that you go out get some quality flash heads Elinchrom, Bowens etc. at least 2, but budget to have at least 4 very shortly along with a selection of softboxes and reflectors etc. And also get yourself some bounces and flags and then learn how to use everything. Buy an old book on studio lighting. Forget any of the modern one, especially those with 'digital' in the title. Learn how to use and control light. Get a proper light meter. Start with inanimate objects and then progress to models, start with TFP models, then progress to paying for experienced models. Learn and study. Ask for and take and accept critique from professionals.

If you really have skill and really want to do it then you will achieve your goal.

("Seriously what kind of a professional portrait photographer exists without having an extremely good knowledge of flash, plus all the kit to back it up?)

Jane Bown who shot professional portrait for the Observer newspaper

http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2009/oct/18/jane-bown-photographer-retrospective-exposures

 

[Phil V]

Sure. Of course you can use just one light, but can't always use just one light. Just as I could demonstrate its ability on countless situations I can demonstrate just as many where I need a lot more.

And that's the really important thing - as a professional you need to be able to deal with any situation. Way too many newbies cling onto these real simple ideas such as natural light, one light, continuous light because they are either scared of, don't know how to use or can't afford a proper studio setup.

I started a shoot yesterday with 2 lights, 2x1m softboxes, basic 45 degrees. As the shoot progressed and the clothing changed I had to make about 3 or 4 changes. I'm still shooting the same shoot, but now its reflective white clothing. I now have 5 lights, 2 on the background with reflectors. A bounce light with a different reflector off the ceiling. A 2m softbox on one side and a tiny 50cm softbox on the other side as well as introducing 2 bounce boards and 2 black bounces.

Glancing over I'm utilising 13 stands and 23 clamps.

That's the point. That simple setup worked yesterday, but now the exact same clothing in a different coloured material needs a different and more complex setup. And its not just the one light thing, its the modifiers and bounces having a lot of effect on the image too.

I'd like to see some awesome examples of your wedding photography using all of this, because nothing would show it better than a picture.

 

[riddell]

@riddell - but it's horses for courses, try walking onto the average wedding with 13 stands, 26 clamps, 5 lights, 4 bounces and a background.. and managing all of that single-handed.

Well you wouldn't do that would you? Having shot close to 200 weddings I'm well aware of what kit is needed and I generally have just two bags with me. However re-iterating my earlier point, to every wedding I take along lighting which sits around just as a backup, should the weather be that bad. And I've had to get it out a few times mostly around winter weddings when its just too dark.

But I should add that I shoot on site a lot, advertising, fashion and commercial and do take along, setup and take down that much gear regularly. Just not at weddings.