ID cards

It potentially could be even worse than that Ashers... one doesn't have to 'use' the card per sé, (I know what you mean though). All one has to do is have a card and there is a possibility that all your profile activities can be monitored. The cards are a feasible conduit to further investigation, and though details won't actually be stored on the card, it is technologically easy to then tag a user and instigate further investigation or monitoring.
 
fabs said:
Because it would become very restrictive for those in the medical profession and I believe, ultimately, that that sort of practice would cost lives. Example, someone is brought into hospital in an emergency. Doctors would need instant access to that person's medical records, can't really hang around waitng for the poor sod to be able to get his authorisation card out.

I'm sorry, but where do you get the idea that the DVLA are selling data to credit agencies? Does that mean that if I don't have a driving license, my credit information will not be with the credit agencies?
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A couple of poor points there fabs. Firstly, the chances of a hospital having your records in the first place is pretty low. Most medical emergencies don't have medical record access. You know as well as I do that they wouldn't hang around waiting. However, should we ever get to be like America we could see patients being refused treatment because they don't have their ID card. No? Already happening stateside when they can't show their medical insurance mate!

And as for your dvla point... *cringe* You know full well it means nothing of the sort. It just means the credit agencies don't have any dvla data with which to supplement their existing data.
 
hepburn said:
A couple of poor points there fabs. Firstly, the chances of a hospital having your records in the first place is pretty low. Most medical emergencies don't have medical record access. You know as well as I do that they wouldn't hang around waiting. However, should we ever get to be like America we could see patients being refused treatment because they don't have their ID card. No? Already happening stateside when they can't show their medical insurance mate!

And as for your dvla point... *cringe* You know full well it means nothing of the sort. It just means the credit agencies don't have any dvla data with which to supplement their existing data.
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Medical records can be obtained very quickly and the American insurance system is very different to the NHS in that I truly don't believe that people would be refused treatment if they don't happen to have their card with them. Anyway, as i understand it, there is to be no legislation to say that the cards have to be carried at all times.

As for credit data, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one as I really don't see any problem with that data bering with credit agencies in the first place. Or should companies just give out credit without know the person's credit history?
 
fabs said:
As for credit data, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one as I really don't see any problem with that data bering with credit agencies in the first place. Or should companies just give out credit without know the person's credit history?
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No, of course not, they have to know this in order to make a decision.

However, this throws up another argument that might be worth exploring. It has been pointed out that most if not all of the data on the card is already available by the authorities. If this is the case, then why do we need an ID card system at all...? Is it so I can prove I am not a terrorist when I get stopped for taking pics in public legally...? How will an ID Card prove that...? It will show who I am, but there's nothing on my card to say I am not a terrorist, so in this example what was the point of having to show the card to someone..?:shrug:
 
id card

Name:
DOB:
Address:
Nationality:
Job: Terrorist
 
fabs said:
Medical records can be obtained very quickly and the American insurance system is very different to the NHS in that I truly don't believe that people would be refused treatment if they don't happen to have their card with them. Anyway, as i understand it, there is to be no legislation to say that the cards have to be carried at all times.
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I changed GP about 5 weeks ago and he's still waiting for my records to be forwarded. I also had occasion to be hospitalised last month and they never saw sight of my records in the 2 weeks I was there. I won't contradict what you claim about the speediness of obtaining records other than to state my own recent real life experiences, both of which are fact.

No legislation YET. As I continue to say, an ID card is of little value unless used routinely and regularly. How many times has our government of the day promised us that something will only be in the short term and then go on to maintain it well past the promised date? Heck, if they can do it with tolls on the dartford crossing they can do it with ID Cards. :lol:

fabs said:
As for credit data, we'll just have to agree to disagree on that one as I really don't see any problem with that data bering with credit agencies in the first place. Or should companies just give out credit without know the person's credit history?
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I'm not disagreeing with what you say per se. It's just that I'm discussing the DVLA and you seem to have moved onto credit agencies? :shrug: And of course I think credit history should be available. I just don't think a government body should be supplying data to a commercial interest as part of it. Do you?
 
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hepburn said:
No legislation YET. As I continue to say, an ID card is of little value unless used routinely and regularly. How many times has our government of the day promised us that something will only be in the short term and then go on to maintain it well past the promised date? Heck, if they can do it with tolls on the dartford crossing they can do it with ID Cards. :lol:

YET is a big word though. As for the Dartford crossing, bunch of crooks on that. :D

I'm not disagreeing with what you say per se. It's just that I'm discussing the DVLA and you seem to have moved onto credit agencies? :shrug: And of course I think credit history should be available. I just don't think a government body should be supplying data to a commercial interest as part of it. Do you?
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Maybe not, but then I'm not sure what data the DVLA has that would be udeful to them. :shrug:
 
just thought id tell you they rolled this id card thing out in liverpool with international students......
 
fabs said:
Ashers, thge card won't have a little video camera in it! :bang:
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No but version 2 will have a GPS chip in it.


The government record on keeping data safe is there for all to see and is P*** Poor. I just don't trust this or any other government with being able to keep vast amounts of information safe.

Somebody mentioned CCTV being used to follow criminal and prevent crime, it was also used but two council worker to spy into a woman's bedroom, in Liverpool if I remember right.

Somebody somewhere will find away to abuse or steal the data held on this card on the SINGLE database which it will be held.
 
fabs said:
Maybe not, but then I'm not sure what data the DVLA has that would be udeful to them. :shrug:
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usually it's address tracking. People are more inclined to keep up to date address records as a result of vehicle ownership changes etc. The DVLA usually have to send you documents you require, thus have a more current address. Credit and debt recovery agencies find that info very handy when trying to trace "gone aways", thus they are willing to pay the DVLA for the info.
 
hepburn said:
usually it's address tracking. People are more inclined to keep up to date address records as a result of vehicle ownership changes etc. The DVLA usually have to send you documents you require, thus have a more current address. Credit and debt recovery agencies find that info very handy when trying to trace "gone aways", thus they are willing to pay the DVLA for the info.
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Fair enough.
 
Ashers said:
just thought id tell you they rolled this id card thing out in liverpool with international students......
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I believe that's nationwide Ashers, and started a couple of months ago. As with so many defeated or difficult legislations, governments find a back door way to implement them.

You have only to look at Eire and their rejection of the "EU Constitution". They now have to vote on what is essentially the same thing by another name.
 
fabs said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hepburn
I'm not sure this is the right thread for you to be posting in Ashers :naughty:


Are there any? :lol:
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Hmm.. Maybe the "an alien flew for millions of light years and crashed into a wind turbine at the last minute" thread? :D
 
whiteflyer said:
No but version 2 will have a GPS chip in it.
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Don't forget to mention v3 will be required to be inserted into a card reader on your car dashboard before the car becomes mobile. It will then become part of the "pay per km" scheme linked into the database. :suspect:
 
hmmphhh believe it or not i know a lot about government legislation. its just no one ever asks me. i know a lot about a lot
 
This is an incredibly interesting discussion, sadly I don't have time to reply to all of you but I will try to make a general point.

If the Government have this information about us (yes, I know they do already have a lot of it), there are so many things that they CAN do, and will do if it benefits them in the slightest and can be slipped past the general public. Things like this happen all the time, because lets face it people in the Government do have difficult jobs and they want to make things easier for themselves (not everybody in the Government, I'm generalising here) even if that means ignoring a certain bit of legislation.

If everyone in Government strictly adhered to legislation, rules and acts then yes, ID cards could be a positive thing (even though they'd still cost loads). Sadly, people aren't perfect, and being in Government doesn't make them any more honest or noble than the rest of us.

We can't change things by whining about them, but there is a growing feeling of distrust towards the Government and specifically misgivings about their ID card scheme. Visit the campaign website if you want to find out specifically what we are doing.

Thankyou for all your replies, everybody.

Ewan
 
I haven't read the whole thread so this may have already been said but my opinion of ID cards is it's simply a way of employing more people, the government have created thousands of civil service jobs so now they have to find something for them to do.

same with child passports, a few women had their kids abducted so now we all have to pay a fortune to the government every 5 years and I bet it's made not a jot of difference to the amount of kids being abducted by a parent

I do wonder if we should all have to submit a DNA sample though, when I heard an article on the Jeremy Vine show ,a series of rapes from the mid 80s had never been solved,recently a guy got arrested for drunk driving and his DNA was taken.

when they ran it through the database they got a hit for the rapes but it wasn't close enough to be the guy so they tested all the family and it was proved to be his cousin :eek:

I remember thinking wow if we were all on a database would it be the end of violent crime as the detection rate would be 100%:shrug:
 
wack61 said:
I haven't read the whole thread so this may have already been said but my opinion of ID cards is it's simply a way of employing more people, the government have created thousands of civil service jobs so now they have to find something for them to do.

same with child passports, a few women had their kids abducted so now we all have to pay a fortune to the government every 5 years and I bet it's made not a jot of difference to the amount of kids being abducted by a parent

I do wonder if we should all have to submit a DNA sample though, when I heard an article on the Jeremy Vine show ,a series of rapes from the mid 80s had never been solved,recently a guy got arrested for drunk driving and his DNA was taken.

when they ran it through the database they got a hit for the rapes but it wasn't close enough to be the guy so they tested all the family and it was proved to be his cousin :eek:

I remember thinking wow if we were all on a database would it be the end of violent crime as the detection rate would be 100%:shrug:
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Yeah, lots of good points... People are shocked and frightened by stories of abduction so the Government takes over the top measures which cost billions, and then gets it wrong anyway.

Remember solving is different from preventing. It wouldn't be the end of violent crime just because they caught all the criminals. Bad influences create bad people, it's about finding those bad influences and doing what you can to remedy them without taking over someones life against their will.
 
Interesting thread. I have only one point to make. I have always been under the impression that handing over your driving licence to a police man could be seen as an admission of guilt. This could be wrong, but I always ask why I'm being stopped when driving before producing my licence. Could this be the case for ID cards?? I'm probably just being paranoid.
 
JDholic said:
Interesting thread. I have only one point to make. I have always been under the impression that handing over your driving licence to a police man could be seen as an admission of guilt. This could be wrong, but I always ask why I'm being stopped when driving before producing my licence. Could this be the case for ID cards?? I'm probably just being paranoid.
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Hmm, If a police officer asks to see your driving license if you are stopped whilst driving, it's hardly an admission of guilt. Refusing to hand it over, on the other hand, would be an offence (Or not producing it within the seven days if you do not have it on you at the time). Also a police officer should always tell you why you have been stopped, you shouldn't even have to ask.
 
As some one who has to wear an I.D. at work, where there are CCTV cameras
and securitymen with body cameras, I personally have no problem with ID cards.

But thats just me!
 
albion said:
As some one who has to wear an I.D. at work, where there are CCTV cameras
and securitymen with body cameras, I personally have no problem with ID cards.

But thats just me!
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Same here. (Except security body camera's!).
I have to have an ID pass at ALL times in my job, and everywhere I go, well almost, has CCTV.
I also had to have terrorist checks, police criminal record checks etc....

What's the big deal with these ID cards?
If you have nothing to hide, why worry?

Same as people who get stroppy with the police for doing a breath test.
I've never been breath tested, yet, but would gladly stop every journey if I had to and provide one.

If it stopped even a tiny % of crimes, I'd gladly have an ID card.
 
andy_fozzy said:
Same here. (Except security body camera's!).
I have to have an ID pass at ALL times in my job, and everywhere I go, well almost, has CCTV.
I also had to have terrorist checks, police criminal record checks etc....

What's the big deal with these ID cards?
If you have nothing to hide, why worry?

Same as people who get stroppy with the police for doing a breath test.
I've never been breath tested, yet, but would gladly stop every journey if I had to and provide one.

If it stopped even a tiny % of crimes, I'd gladly have an ID card.
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The National Identity Register is the database that goes with the card, and that is the real issue here. They will keep a huge amount of your personal information, no matter where you work, and this information will be available to a hell of a lot of people (see this article.) And as I've said before in this thread, we have no reason to think that this information will be kept safe. Do you trust the Government to keep your information safe and not misuse it? Also, do you trust all future Governments to do the same? Once we give up our information we no longer have any control over what happens to it.

Even if ID cards and the NIR did help prevent crime, and there is no evidence to suggest that they will, the disadvantages would vastly outweigh the advantages. Banning motor vehicles would save thousands of lives every year, not to mention the planet, but we don't do that because of the huge disadvantages.
 
Ewan said:
The National Identity Register is the database that goes with the card, and that is the real issue here. They will keep a huge amount of your personal information, no matter where you work, and this information will be available to a hell of a lot of people (see this article.) And as I've said before in this thread, we have no reason to think that this information will be kept safe. Do you trust the Government to keep your information safe and not misuse it? Also, do you trust all future Governments to do the same? Once we give up our information we no longer have any control over what happens to it.

Even if ID cards and the NIR did help prevent crime, and there is no evidence to suggest that they will, the disadvantages would vastly outweigh the advantages. Banning motor vehicles would save thousands of lives every year, not to mention the planet, but we don't do that because of the huge disadvantages.
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You make a good point, and TBH, I really don't know enough about it to comment much more!

Just wanted to add my 2p worth!

And just for the record, no I don't trust the government here, and never will.
However, I also don't trust ANY newspaper, and never will.....
So without starting any further debates, I'm not even going to read that link, as I see it's from The Daily Mail.
 
andy_fozzy said:
You make a good point, and TBH, I really don't know enough about it to comment much more!

Just wanted to add my 2p worth!

And just for the record, no I don't trust the government here, and never will.
However, I also don't trust ANY newspaper, and never will.....
So without starting any further debates, I'm not even going to read that link, as I see it's from The Daily Mail.
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Haha, I don't blame you, I'm not a fan of the Mail either. I'm sure you could find similar information from lots of other sources though :)
 
Ewan said:
Haha, I don't blame you, I'm not a fan of the Mail either. I'm sure you could find similar information from lots of other sources though :)
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Ok I'll admit, I did have a quick gander :D

But, I understand it's not nice for people to see our personal details etc, and I wouldn't be exactly 'chuffed' to know any Tom **** or Harriet could see all about me, but, what's the harm?
What can 'they' do with all this information?

Now if they had my bank details, now that would be different!
 
andy_fozzy said:
Ok I'll admit, I did have a quick gander :D

But, I understand it's not nice for people to see our personal details etc, and I wouldn't be exactly 'chuffed' to know any Tom **** or Harriet could see all about me, but, what's the harm?
What can 'they' do with all this information?

Now if they had my bank details, now that would be different!
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Hey mods, the word I had *ed out is a name, which is short for Richard!
It's not a swear word :D
 
andy_fozzy said:
Ok I'll admit, I did have a quick gander :D

But, I understand it's not nice for people to see our personal details etc, and I wouldn't be exactly 'chuffed' to know any Tom **** or Harriet could see all about me, but, what's the harm?
What can 'they' do with all this information?

Now if they had my bank details, now that would be different!
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There are a number of things they can do. It is possible, and quite likely, that religion, sexual preferences, and political views will be added to the information held about you on the database. This could very easily lead to discrimination if it got into the wrong hands, or even the "right" hands (the Government).

See http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ for an extreme, yet relevant example.
IBM punchcard technology (a primitive version of todays NIR), was used to catalogue and persecute Jews before and during the Holocaust.
 
Ewan said:
There are a number of things they can do. It is possible, and quite likely, that religion, sexual preferences, and political views will be added to the information held about you on the database. This could very easily lead to discrimination if it got into the wrong hands, or even the "right" hands (the Government).

See http://www.ibmandtheholocaust.com/ for an extreme, yet relevant example.
IBM punchcard technology (a primitive version of todays NIR), was used to catalogue and persecute Jews before and during the Holocaust.
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Sorry Ewan, but that is pure scaremongering. There is no way in this day and age they could ever accurately gather that sort of information or force people to give it. This is where the "anti" campaigns fall over IMO, they base their opposition on the most outlandish things they can think that may possibley happen and try and convince people that they WILL happen.
 
fabs said:
Sorry Ewan, but that is pure scaremongering. There is no way in this day and age they could ever accurately gather that sort of information or force people to give it. This is where the "anti" campaigns fall over IMO, they base their opposition on the most outlandish things they can think that may possibley happen and try and convince people that they WILL happen.
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Can't agree with you at all there. When terrible things happen we have to learn from them. I'm not saying that something like that will happen again, I'm saying it's very possible that something similar could happen and we should be aware of the power the Government has over us WITHOUT being scared of them. I'm not fighting the Government in every way, they can do wonderful things for society. I'm anti ID cards, but pro freedom and pro democracy. The NO2ID campaign is specifically pro privacy. This is a positive campaign. I provided an extreme example as just that, an example of what can happen when systems like this are in place.

Thinking that things like that couldn't happen, "in this day and age," is simply wrong. Terrible things happen in this day and age. Look around you, read the newspapers. It is important to be aware of these things, but I am very strongly against acting out of fear.
 
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