ID cards

Ewan

Ewan

Suspended / Banned
Messages
2,498
Edit My Images
Yes
The details of the Government's ID card scheme are really quite worrying..

They're telling us it will help combat terrorism and ID fraud, but there really is no evidence to support that claim and no reason for this massive intrusion into our privacy. There's CCTV on every corner, now we're going to have to prove who we are on a daily basis... Feels like one more step towards 1984 to me! :(

I won't type the arguments out here, as they're all put very well on the campaign site...www.no2id.net. Please do have a look!

Here is the Home Offices, "Why we need ID cards," if you want the other side of the argument..http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/passports-and-immigration/id-cards/why-we-need-id-cards/. They don't exactly go into much detail though!

Thanks for reading,
Ewan
 
fabs said:
So in what way do they invade your privacy? Oh, and they don't have CCTV on residential streets.
Click to expand...

Don't they? Must be me being paranoid :bonk: It's still a crapload of CCTV :)

Well, I consider taking all my information including my fingerprints, scans of my eye (53 pieces of information in total) etc, and putting it all on a massive database for their own mysterious uses to be an invasion of my privacy. Especially given the recent losses of data by the Government.

Even if I trusted this Government to keep my information safe and not misuse it (which I don't), I certainly don't trust all future Governments who will also have access to this information.
 
Ewan said:
Don't they? Must be me being paranoid :bonk: It's still a crapload of CCTV :)

Well, I consider taking all my information including my fingerprints, scans of my eye (53 pieces of information in total) etc, and putting it all on a massive database for their own mysterious uses to be an invasion of my privacy. Especially given the recent losses of data by the Government.

Even if I trusted this Government to keep my information safe and not misuse it (which I don't), I certainly don't trust all future Governments who will also have access to this information.
Click to expand...

It's in public places where you can be seen anyway, I've never had an issue with CCTV myself as it can't do me any harm.

As for all the information, well they've got it all anyway, they're just going to stick it on a card for you to carry. Again, I don't see the problem.
 
photon said:
Cost?
Click to expand...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4590817.stm

Looks as if the direct cost will be £93, and the cost to the taxpayer is estimated at £5.5bn (ish) by the Government, although the London School of Economics says it could be between £12bn and £18bn. So quite a lot, basically. For very little benefit as far as I'm concerned.

Fabs, I don't object to CCTV and other kinds of surveillance being used in specific areas to prosecute criminals, it's the misuse of such power that worries me. If someone I didn't know followed me round with a video camera, saying it was incase I commited a crime, I'd have a problem with it. Same reasoning applies to CCTV, for me anyway.

They do have a lot of our information, and I don't think they should to be honest. We're already in a hole as far as keeping our personal data safe is concerned, but that's no reason to keep digging. And we have to remember that this is a whole new level of data collection for a couple of reasons - biometrics, and the fact that its one huge database which if your information is somehow compromised means the fraudster has everything he/she needs to pretend to be you. We know that 'ID cards can't be forged' is a myth as anything that's made by man can be forged by man, and because of the belief that ID cards are so forge-proof a forged one is far less likely to be questioned.

Thanks for all your interesting replies, it's great to hear peoples views on the subject :)

Ewan
 
Ewan said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4590817.stmFabs, I don't object to CCTV and other kinds of surveillance being used in specific areas to prosecute criminals, it's the misuse of such power that worries me. If someone I didn't know followed me round with a video camera, saying it was incase I commited a crime, I'd have a problem with it. Same reasoning applies to CCTV, for me anyway.
Click to expand...

But no-one is following you around with CCTV. No-one even looks at it unless a crime has been committed in the vicinity. It is only used in specific areas and to aid in the solving of crimes, what else do you think it is used for?
 
fabs said:
But no-one is following you around with CCTV. No-one even looks at it unless a crime has been committed in the vicinity. It is only used in specific areas and to aid in the solving of crimes, what else do you think it is used for?
Click to expand...

It would be usefull if we could access the town centre CCTV to check the queues at the chippy :)
 
Ewan said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4590817.stm

Looks as if the direct cost will be £93, and the cost to the taxpayer is estimated at £5.5bn (ish) by the Government, although the London School of Economics says it could be between £12bn and £18bn. So quite a lot, basically. For very little benefit as far as I'm concerned.

Fabs, I don't object to CCTV and other kinds of surveillance being used in specific areas to prosecute criminals, it's the misuse of such power that worries me. If someone I didn't know followed me round with a video camera, saying it was incase I commited a crime, I'd have a problem with it. Same reasoning applies to CCTV, for me anyway.

They do have a lot of our information, and I don't think they should to be honest. We're already in a hole as far as keeping our personal data safe is concerned, but that's no reason to keep digging. And we have to remember that this is a whole new level of data collection for a couple of reasons - biometrics, and the fact that its one huge database which if your information is somehow compromised means the fraudster has everything he/she needs to pretend to be you. We know that 'ID cards can't be forged' is a myth as anything that's made by man can be forged by man, and because of the belief that ID cards are so forge-proof a forged one is far less likely to be questioned.

Thanks for all your interesting replies, it's great to hear peoples views on the subject :)

Ewan
Click to expand...

That was 2005!! here is where I got my info from, Nov 2008.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/398/1049398/uk-id-card-cost-goes-up-again
 
My dad sent off for his pensioner bus pass a wee while back and when it came back it had someone elses' photo on it. Now this wouldn't be so bad if it had been a man's photo...


So back it went, with another photo of me old da'.....and back it came with another photo of the mystery woman.

So back it went again and back it came a third time, with the same wee woman's picture on it.

Eventually I phoned them up and said if they didn't get it sorted, I was going to the papers with the story, to which they replied that they knew all about the problem and had corrected the woman's pass three months previously (as she'd been getting cards with my dad's pic on it) and had linked the two accounts with a note about the mistake.

Why then, I asked, did they still send my dad a card with her pic on it when they knew that it wasn't correct?

"So that's not your dad's pic on the card?",came the reply.

These are just bus passes, can you imagine what it'll be like with the i.d cards? :bang:
 
fabs said:
But no-one is following you around with CCTV. No-one even looks at it unless a crime has been committed in the vicinity. It is only used in specific areas and to aid in the solving of crimes, what else do you think it is used for?
Click to expand...

Not always true. CCTV is being used more and more in a proactive way to try and prevent crime. So if you fit in to a certain 'group' or 'stereotype' then you could find yourself being 'watched.' There are also more and more residential streets with CCTV being fitted. Quite often in so called problem areas, but this will soon become normal.

Back to the id cards issue. There is always going to be an issue with data storage and security. I think that having all the information on ONE card is just asking for trouble. As already commented it's only a matter of time before someone forges the card. Also we do not know how many people there are in the country illegally (whole different subject) so how can we insist that all legal citizens are recorded??

On the other side of the argument though is the thought 'if you have nothing to hide then what are you worrying about?' Having a central database with all citizens information will make people think twice about commiting a crime. Police work should be sped up, as forensics will be able to crack a case and point to the guilty party. But then that opens up a whole new can of worms. If we are going to solve more crimes, where are we going to put all the criminals??
 
I have no problem with carrying an ID card, giving my fingerprints and/or DNA or having CCTV on every corner of every town.

Anything which helps lock away the scum sounds good to me.
 
Thanks for correcting me Galaxy, I should have spent longer looking :bonk: 60 quid is still a lot for something we don't need or want :)

MG TF 135 said:
Not always true. CCTV is being used more and more in a proactive way to try and prevent crime. So if you fit in to a certain 'group' or 'stereotype' then you could find yourself being 'watched.' There are also more and more residential streets with CCTV being fitted. Quite often in so called problem areas, but this will soon become normal.

Back to the id cards issue. There is always going to be an issue with data storage and security. I think that having all the information on ONE card is just asking for trouble. As already commented it's only a matter of time before someone forges the card. Also we do not know how many people there are in the country illegally (whole different subject) so how can we insist that all legal citizens are recorded??

On the other side of the argument though is the thought 'if you have nothing to hide then what are you worrying about?' Having a central database with all citizens information will make people think twice about commiting a crime. Police work should be sped up, as forensics will be able to crack a case and point to the guilty party. But then that opens up a whole new can of worms. If we are going to solve more crimes, where are we going to put all the criminals??
Click to expand...

Very good points :thumbs:

The 'nothing to hide' thing...Well I can definately see where you're coming from, and its a point of view that many, many people hold (most people are either anti ID cards, or don't mind them. There seems to be very few people around who are actively pro ID cards), but there are situations in which people could have something they want to be kept secret, even though they aren't breaking any laws or posing a threat to anyone. Someone might have a terminal disease, a condition they were embarrassed about, or they might be having an affair. It's not clear whether information like this would be held on the National Identity Register, but it's certainly a possibility, and having this scheme in place would make it easier for even more information to be required by the Government.

You cannot know who will get their hands on your information. An extremely left or right wing Government could get into office, and prosecute those who opposed them. Someone with access to the database could be bribed a large amount to alter or reveal your data. Who knows, someone might even leave it on a memory stick on a train...

This is not a nessecary reduction of our rights, it's an un-nessecary one.

JumboBeef said:
I have no problem with carrying an ID card, giving my fingerprints and/or DNA or having CCTV on every corner of every town.

Anything which helps lock away the scum sounds good to me.
Click to expand...

I don't think describing anyone who breaks any law as 'scum' is very fair or insightful.
 
Ha, fraudsters will find a way to use them like they do with Passports.


if you have nothing to hide then what are you worrying about?
Click to expand...

Well we already have to have passports and we would have to have both ID and passports If ID cards are put Into place. Most people have nothing to hide but the goverment makes themselves look paranoid with this.

Might prevent some terrorists trying to get some fake IDs the odd time but probably won't stop them managing to bomb somewhere when they become irrational because of middle east injustices. I don't defend terrorist actions though either way.
 
Tsukiyomi said:
Well we already have to have passports
Click to expand...

Only if you want to travel abroad. In fact there is no form of identification that we have to have so again I don't have a problem with having ID. All the arguments against seem to be pure conjecture and born out of paranoia. The best example would be the fear that people would be randomly stopped in the streets and asked for it. There is already legislation in place that prevents this. Yes, there will always be occassions where certain people in authority will try and side step this, but I really don't think it would be helpful to bring all that up again in this thread.
 
I don't see a problem with ID cards. I carry my MOD 90 (Army ID ;)) at all times, and they have most of my deatails already anyway. If Government can promise to do all they say on the site using ID ards then what's the problem? I don't see how it's an invasion of privacy really, if you weere claiming any benefits etc I'm sure you wouldn't mind the givernment knowing.

I'm all for protecting privacy, but until there's someone knocking on my door at 3am asking if I'd be interested in buying some designer glasses because the Governments sold my info to marketing, or until someone aims a CCTV camera through my bedroom window, I won't be digging out the pitchfork or lighting my torch.

And FTR Ewan, I'm FOR ID cards. I really don't see the issue. I'm sure you'd complain if you had your indentity stolen and bought a new car in Manchester without even knowing :shrug:
 
What use is an ID card if it's not used routinely and regularly? My concern with them is once they have been compromised (stolen?) you have to add further "data" to them to revalidate them so they become secure again. How can you easily do that with biometric data? If you revalidate with non-biometric data, that can easily be replicated making forgery more likely. Also, if it's just a reference number that changes then how can anyone examining the card be sure it's the right and valid one?

In regard to their use perhaps solving more crimes, true enough but won't that lead to a "dumbing down" of what constitutes a crime as the prisons get ever fuller? We've already seen it happen in respect of house and car crime for example. Call the police to report it or more likely to just get a crime reference number for insurance purposes?

Let's look at one other aspect I predict would happen - denial of services, public or private. So let's say you have had your card stolen and are awaiting a replacement. You have an accident and need hospital treatment but can't show your card and get turned away. Or howabout a similar scenario and the police ask for your card but you can't produce it, so they lock you away. If you think this is unlikely then think about the current state of affairs for untaxed or uninsured cars on the road which are immediately removed from the streets. Now replace cars for people without an ID card. What if it was you, who for legitimate but unfortunate set of circumstances, was in that situation. Still think it's right to be "taken off the streets"? And before you shout back that this wouldn't happen, think about it, what use is an ID card if it's not going to be used? An ID card is not a "produce it later" ticket, it's a "produce it now" tool.

Legislation is a very useful mechanism in a free and democratic society. The trouble is what happens when we lose that democracy or freedom? Will someone wipe out the ID card database? You can bet it won't happen. Once ID Cards and the National Database are in place they are here to stay, irrespective of the future and how we end up (or if) governed.

Finally, I've not read information from either side of the camps on this subject. These are just my own thoughts based on observations over the years. What I am grateful to be able to say is thank god I'm old enough to be probably dead and buried before ID cards have created the society i'd be loathed to be part of.
 
Great post hepburn, very well said indeed.

Another issue that springs to mind for me, is that things always change, and never remain in the state they are... times move on, and for whatever set of circumstances or reasons things naturally have to change and evolve. This will undoubtedly be the same for ID cards. The government, in future years, will surely look for ways of making the 'system' more efficient and more effective, and will look to 'commercialise' aspects of the ID card system. I am sure they will do this purporting to make best use of our 'public' money, and to maximise use of the system. They will perhaps sell data to list companies when we can then expect to have cold calls from companies selling their wares to us based on our ID Card profile, insurance companies will have our details, finance institutions and banks will be able to access our credit and banking records... just imagine the situation that could ensue.

To me, this is by far the biggest risk to and invasion of our privacy in the adoption of a national identity card system. Fine, most of us have nothing to hide, and as has been said are perhaps not necessarily against such a system, but it's what that system could become that really concerns me.
 
Last edited:
But this is my point. People are anti because of what could happen. Well your most personal imformation, arguably, is your medical records. Who's to say that in future the government might not sell those to insurance companies? Would you then say that medical records should not be held by anyone but the person whose records they are?

To be honest, I find rthe whole idea that personal information could be sold by the government to the commercial sector quite preposterous. Are you saying then that the data protection act will be abolished?
 
hepburn said:
What use is an ID card if it's not used routinely and regularly? My concern with them is once they have been compromised (stolen?) you have to add further "data" to them to revalidate them so they become secure again. How can you easily do that with biometric data? If you revalidate with non-biometric data, that can easily be replicated making forgery more likely. Also, if it's just a reference number that changes then how can anyone examining the card be sure it's the right and valid one?

In regard to their use perhaps solving more crimes, true enough but won't that lead to a "dumbing down" of what constitutes a crime as the prisons get ever fuller? We've already seen it happen in respect of house and car crime for example. Call the police to report it or more likely to just get a crime reference number for insurance purposes?

Let's look at one other aspect I predict would happen - denial of services, public or private. So let's say you have had your card stolen and are awaiting a replacement. You have an accident and need hospital treatment but can't show your card and get turned away. Or howabout a similar scenario and the police ask for your card but you can't produce it, so they lock you away. If you think this is unlikely then think about the current state of affairs for untaxed or uninsured cars on the road which are immediately removed from the streets. Now replace cars for people without an ID card. What if it was you, who for legitimate but unfortunate set of circumstances, was in that situation. Still think it's right to be "taken off the streets"? And before you shout back that this wouldn't happen, think about it, what use is an ID card if it's not going to be used? An ID card is not a "produce it later" ticket, it's a "produce it now" tool.

Legislation is a very useful mechanism in a free and democratic society. The trouble is what happens when we lose that democracy or freedom? Will someone wipe out the ID card database? You can bet it won't happen. Once ID Cards and the National Database are in place they are here to stay, irrespective of the future and how we end up (or if) governed.

Finally, I've not read information from either side of the camps on this subject. These are just my own thoughts based on observations over the years. What I am grateful to be able to say is thank god I'm old enough to be probably dead and buried before ID cards have created the society i'd be loathed to be part of.
Click to expand...



well said
 
Hi fabs

There's more than two states to a switch. I am not anti ID card... but neither am I pro ID card. I am also not ant ID card because of what I posted above.

It's just that things do change and evolve; rules change, regulations change, c'est la vie. OK, I accept that the likelihood of the government to sell our data to spammers is low, but I am sure they would consider using the ID card system to monitor bank details, credit records and health records. There are plenty of examples of changes in the law that allow the establishment to invade your privacy. There's current plans to allow police to covertly, without permission, break into your home network to scan your systems, there's plans for them to demand that ISP's store emails for a long period of time so the police can access your email records. These items are not scaremongery, they are real and are here 'now'.

Sorry for the rushed post - just taking my daughter to rugby training... back online in a mo... great debate fabs.
 
Agreed MusicMan. Always a great and fun debate these. :thumbs:

This may come as a surprise, but I'm not totally pro ID cards myself, certainly don't like the idea of people having to pay a substantial amount of money for them. But I also don't believe it's constructive to be anti on the basis of conjecture and conspiracy theory, which many people are.

In any case, we will debate this until we are blue in the face and they will be brought in anyway. Will be interesting to see, if the tories get in at the next election, whether they will go ahead/continue with the scheme. It's amazing how many times the opposition has objected to a government's policies, only for them to continue with the same ones when they get into power.
 
This debate about INFORMATION held is a massive red herring.

Who says that the ID Card will hold this information? Those who are against it, that's who.

The ID Card will only hold sufficient data to assist in the positive identification of the holder. That's why it is called an ID Card and not an Information or Data Card.

The Information that seems to concern people is already held by various government departments and agencies. The ID Card merely assists in the positive and efficient identification of an individual so that information held in various data banks can then be accessed (by those authorised so to do).

The clue is in the name. It is an IDENTIFICATION Card. Not a Data Repository.

Bring it on.
 
2blue4u said:
This debate about INFORMATION held is a massive red herring.

Who says that the ID Card will hold this information? Those who are against it, that's who.

The ID Card will only hold sufficient data to assist in the positive identification of the holder. That's why it is called an ID Card and not an Information or Data Card.

The Information that seems to concern people is already held by various government departments and agencies. The ID Card merely assists in the positive and efficient identification of an individual so that information held in various data banks can then be accessed (by those authorised so to do).

The clue is in the name. It is an IDENTIFICATION Card. Not a Data Repository.

Bring it on.
Click to expand...

Indeed. According to the website the following data will be on the card:

* name
* address
* gender
* date and place of birth
* immigration status
* fingerprints
* facial image

All bar the biometric data and immigration status are on my driving license.
 
fabs said:
Would you then say that medical records should not be held by anyone but the person whose records they are?
Click to expand...

In a nutshell, yes. At the very least they should be encrypted and the person they belong to should have to be part of the unlocking procedure. Your GP has to insert a data card into his PC to access NHS systems, why shouldn't the patient have to insert a card to allow the GP access to the patients records?

fabs said:
To be honest, I find rthe whole idea that personal information could be sold by the government to the commercial sector quite preposterous. Are you saying then that the data protection act will be abolished?
Click to expand...

I don't know if the data protection act will be abolished, but frankly it has minimal effect anyway. What I can tell you with absolute certainty is personal data is being sold by the government to the private sector, here and now. It's not preposterous at all. Just take a look at the DVLA and the way it sells your data to credit agencies and debt recovery firms. And again let me head off the likely argument of if you're not in debt why worry etc. What if you have a disputed debt? These companies don't wait for a court order these days, they just take an instruction from the client and use pressure tactics to obtain payment.

I don't supply my data to the DVLA for them to sell and profit by it, let alone make life uncomfortable for people.
 
i dont want people knowing where i am or what im doing.... :(
 
hepburn said:
In a nutshell, yes. At the very least they should be encrypted and the person they belong to should have to be part of the unlocking procedure. Your GP has to insert a data card into his PC to access NHS systems, why shouldn't the patient have to insert a card to allow the GP access to the patients records?
Click to expand...

Because it would become very restrictive for those in the medical profession and I believe, ultimately, that that sort of practice would cost lives. Example, someone is brought into hospital in an emergency. Doctors would need instant access to that person's medical records, can't really hang around waitng for the poor sod to be able to get his authorisation card out.

hepburn said:
I don't know if the data protection act will be abolished, but frankly it has minimal effect anyway. What I can tell you with absolute certainty is personal data is being sold by the government to the private sector, here and now. It's not preposterous at all. Just take a look at the DVLA and the way it sells your data to credit agencies and debt recovery firms. And again let me head off the likely argument of if you're not in debt why worry etc. What if you have a disputed debt? These companies don't wait for a court order these days, they just take an instruction from the client and use pressure tactics to obtain payment.

I don't supply my data to the DVLA for them to sell and profit by it, let alone make life uncomfortable for people.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, but where do you get the idea that the DVLA are selling data to credit agencies? Does that mean that if I don't have a driving license, my credit information will not be with the credit agencies?
 
i know that but that means if i need to use the card people could know where i was and find me :O
 
Not the best of arguments there 2blue4u...

Who says...

2blue4u said:
This debate about INFORMATION held is a massive red herring. Who says that the ID Card will hold this information? Those who are against it, that's who.
Click to expand...

... you and those who don't see this as a threat do!! You are presenting a counter argument to your own argument by using this as an example.

2blue4u said:
This debate about INFORMATION held is a massive red herring.

Who says that the ID Card will hold this information? Those who are against it, that's who.

The ID Card will only hold sufficient data to assist in the positive identification of the holder. That's why it is called an ID Card and not an Information or Data Card.

The Information that seems to concern people is already held by various government departments and agencies. The ID Card merely assists in the positive and efficient identification of an individual so that information held in various data banks can then be accessed (by those authorised so to do).

The clue is in the name. It is an IDENTIFICATION Card. Not a Data Repository.

Bring it on.
Click to expand...

There is no doubt we are moving to a big brother state... but not necessarily for all the right reasons. There has to be a limit as to how far the establishment can go in gaining access to our information.

It's not that this is all negative, but again, as has been well said previously, once the ID card system is in place, it's here for good. Watch the 'flood gates of further use' open wide then! Was the film called Vanilla Sky...?
 
and also that means they got me down on record so they find my fingerprints they know i been there :S
 
2blue4u said:
This debate about INFORMATION held is a massive red herring.

The ID Card will only hold sufficient data to assist in the positive identification of the holder. That's why it is called an ID Card and not an Information or Data Card.

The clue is in the name. It is an IDENTIFICATION Card. Not a Data Repository.
Click to expand...

What is a red herring is your trying to purport the debate is only about information when it isn't.

With the ID Card there has to be a behind the scenes network of system to ensure the card functions as defined. They would be data systems, or repositories.

Regardless of what behind the scenes systems are in place, if the card is about identification as you suggest then my original post contains enough concerns to be a stark warning of what's to come.

I'll repeat my basic concern here: An ID Card is only of value if used routinely and regularly.

For that to happen it will be an item of "produce on demand" with consequences for failing to to do so. If there are to be no consequences or it is not an "on demand" card then why have it? If it's purely about government centralising data that can be done without the need for a card.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top