I will soon have an illegal knife, apparently.

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The current government are making some knives illegal if they exceed the following standards: (from the BBC website and extracted from The Criminal Justice Act 1988(Offensive Weapons) (Amendment,Surrender and Compensation) Order2024)

Zombie knives were first banned in 2016 but a new, broader definition, external designed to outlaw more blades will take effect in England and Wales on 24 September.

From then it will be illegal to own a knife with a sharpened blade longer than 8in (20cm), if it also has other features, including:

  • A serrated cutting edge
  • More than one hole in the blade
  • Spikes
  • More than two sharp points in the blade

It seems that after 24th September I will be breaking the law if I have in my possession...a bread knife.
I've just checked it, it is nine inches long and has a serrated blade.

If I hand it in, I will be given ten pounds and my bread will be safe from attack.

"Phew," says the bread, "That's a relief!"

Do things like this really help? If anyone had a 'zombie' knife previously for the purposes of killing someone, they are hardly like to be afraid of a fine for keeping it.

I'm almost tempted to go on Amazon and buy a load of 10 inch bread knives for £7.99 each, then claim ten quid for each of them when I hand them in.
 
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Anyone with a vice and access to basic tools and pieces of metal will be able to make a lethal blade PDQ and sell it to anyone in the world so I'm not sure this will help at all.

Still. If a little bit of good is done that's wonderful plus there's the virtue signalling kudos to be had.
 
Is there not a "for good reason" proviso in there somewhere? I know there is for the locking blade legislation.
 
IIRC some good Global knives have 'holes' in the blade to aid slicing or whatever it needs to do!

I too have a bread knife, but I think my 20cm Global Chefs knife would do far more damage!
 
I have one of those Global ones too, and yes, it's long and has slots in it. I'd prefer to use it on dead meat though.
 
Nod said:
Is there not a "for good reason" proviso in there somewhere? I know there is for the locking blade legislation.
Click to expand...
Not that I can see. This is the full document:

Knife definition

Just in case retailers now stop selling decent-length bread knives, I've ordered another one for a spare as there is no point in a bread knife that is only eight inches or less in length; bread should live in fear once more!! Muhahahaha!
 
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The legislation seems too particular to me.

It would be better if it just said "if you're found to have an object, in public, that a reasonable person would believe can be used as an offensive weapon and cannot provide a sensible reason as to why you have that object in public, you have committed an offense".

Trying to define an offensive weapon just leads you down the rabbit hole.
 
Indeed, anything with a point can be used to kill or maim and in truth, it needn't even have a point: a hammer, a stone, a push into the traffic. If someone wants to hurt or kill someone, a zombie knife is merely a flashy way (to their 'friends') of doing it.
Trying to define an offensive weapon is following the same flawed path as the 'dangerous dogs act'; any dog can be dangerous, just as any knife, any gun, any workshop tool can be too. As usual, the powers-that-be just want to be seen to be doing something, however ineffective it is, without actually having to tackle the root cause -- stupidity. Unfortunately, it is not yet necessary to obtain a licence, by examination, for parenting -- I refer you, dear reader, to the case of the woman who went on holiday just before her son was due to be in court for rioting:

There's no hope
 
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Nod said:
Is there not a "for good reason" proviso in there somewhere? I know there is for the locking blade legislation.
Click to expand...
The new legislation covers a loophole where zombie style knives had to have a depiction or words of death on them, if it was in someone’s home and it didn’t have them then it was legal, now it just needs to have a serrated edge and be a zombie style knife. You have to question why the original legislation just didn't ban them..period.

A good explanation.
basc.org.uk

New legislation on zombie-style knives and machetes: what you need to know

Zombie-style knives and machetes will be added to the list of prohibited weapons under the Offensive Weapons Order from 24 September 2024.
basc.org.uk basc.org.uk


In the article it states .."However, the Order contains a general defence for antique examples which are defined as being over one hundred years old from the date of any alleged offence. This would cover First World War German bayonets, many of which had saw-toothed backs"
 
ShinySideUp said:
The current government are making some knives illegal if they exceed the following standards: (from the BBC website and extracted from The Criminal Justice Act 1988(Offensive Weapons) (Amendment,Surrender and Compensation) Order2024)

Zombie knives were first banned in 2016 but a new, broader definition, external designed to outlaw more blades will take effect in England and Wales on 24 September.

From then it will be illegal to own a knife with a sharpened blade longer than 8in (20cm), if it also has other features, including:

  • A serrated cutting edge
  • More than one hole in the blade
  • Spikes
  • More than two sharp points in the blade

It seems that after 24th September I will be breaking the law if I have in my possession...a bread knife.
I've just checked it, it is nine inches long and has a serrated blade.

If I hand it in, I will be given ten pounds and my bread will be safe from attack.

"Phew," says the bread, "That's a relief!"

Do things like this really help? If anyone had a 'zombie' knife previously for the purposes of killing someone, they are hardly like to be afraid of a fine for keeping it.

I'm almost tempted to go on Amazon and buy a load of 10 inch bread knives for £7.99 each, then claim ten quid for each of them when I hand them in.
Click to expand...
The legislation amended section 141 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, with the following definition of a “zombie knife” as “being a blade with —

a cutting edge;
a serrated edge;

crucially...

and (iii) images or words (whether on the blade or handle) that suggest that it is to be used for violence.”

I assume your trusty serrated bread knife doesn't have any such wording....:)

I can see why you've asked the question, though because in that link you included at the top of your post it doesn't mention the 'writings' nor 'images' on the blade nor the handle that define a zombie knife.
 
I've just looked and my kitchen knife has 'Death to Bread' written along it in crayon!!

Not really.
 
JohnC6 said:
The new legislation covers a loophole where zombie style knives had to have a depiction or words of death on them, if it was in someone’s home and it didn’t have them then it was legal, now it just needs to have a serrated edge and be a zombie style knife. You have to question why the original legislation just didn't ban them..period.

A good explanation.
basc.org.uk

New legislation on zombie-style knives and machetes: what you need to know

Zombie-style knives and machetes will be added to the list of prohibited weapons under the Offensive Weapons Order from 24 September 2024.
basc.org.uk basc.org.uk


In the article it states .."However, the Order contains a general defence for antique examples which are defined as being over one hundred years old from the date of any alleged offence. This would cover First World War German bayonets, many of which had saw-toothed backs"
Click to expand...

Well thats ok then, I mean, a one hundred year old weapon cant kill (I actually have a WW1 German bayonet too)
 
AndrewFlannigan said:
The legislation seems too particular to me.

It would be better if it just said "if you're found to have an object, in public, that a reasonable person would believe can be used as an offensive weapon and cannot provide a sensible reason as to why you have that object in public, you have committed an offense".

Trying to define an offensive weapon just leads you down the rabbit hole.
Click to expand...
I had a rare trip to the office the other day - it's in central London. Conversation went like this:

"What's that in your laptop bag?"
It's a sword.
"Why do you have a sword in your bag?"
I'm going to a sword lesson later.
"Oh. Are you allowed to carry that?"
Yeah. Probably. It's under 4 feet* so it's OK on the Tube.
"Oh".

------
*I actually remember this fact from a school maths problem. "If you can't take anything more than 4 feet on the tube, what's the longest item you can take on the tube?"

I'm annoyed because I just looked it up and it's actually 2 metres which makes the maths a bit harder.
 
Nod said:
Is there not a "for good reason" proviso in there somewhere? I know there is for the locking blade legislation.
Click to expand...
Locking knives are regarded as fixed-blade knives, there is no specific legislation about them. They are regarded (by the people who made the laws and who know nothing about the reality of using knives) as more dangerous than non-locking knives (penknives) because they stay locked open until a mechanical action is performed, pressing a catch, that allows them to be closed.

We have a small farm and constantly need to cut bale band, string, netting, bale wrap, haylage wrap and so on, knives are essential. I carry two knives, the one shown below is a self-opening locking knife, heavy and very sharp, its biggest advantage is that it can be easily opened with one movement of one hand. The other knife is one of those small folding knives that holds a heavy-duty razor blade, even sharper but it needs 2 hands and sometimes only one is available
lock.jpg
The one shown has a blade of around 3 1/2", the other one is less than 1" but is just as illegal in a public place simply because the blade is locked open.
The reality is that everyone uses locking knives because they are much safer - they can't close on our fingers, but the ignorant legislators have made us into potential criminals.

Now, on most of our own land, it's fine to carry these knives, but there's a public highway running through it. It's privately owned and privately maintained but it's classed as a public highway, so driving any vehicle along it, or crossing it, with one of these knives in a pocket or in the vehicle where it can be easily accessed, could put us in the dock. And our farmyard is a public place too, because the public have access to it.

Also, every vehicle and every bit of farm machinery has a fixed-blade knife in the cab, which becomes potentially illegal every time we use or cross the public highway.

And there's always a risk that I might forget to remove the knives from my pocket if I pop out to a (relatively) local shop, it happens. I have a defence in law if I am taking a knife to or from my place of work, but there is no defence if I have simply forgotten to leave it behind. The only available defence is "Good reason" which is far more onerous than the previous defence of "reasonable excuse"

What makes it even more crazy is that I can walk around in a public place with a gun, but not a knife:(

As for this latest legislation, I think it right to ban knives that are specifically designed to be weapons, but the law should recognise the difference between an essential tool and a potential weapon (a bladed article that is designed to be a tool but which is capable of being used as a weapon). Every uniformed police officer is issued with a lock knife, for emergency use such as cutting through a seat belt, why are police officers allowed to carry them when other essential workers aren't?

Edit: I've just noticed, after about 15 years of ownership, that it has "zero tolerance" printed on it, which is a bit stupid for a tool, but which doesn't make it any more of a weapon.
 
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The questioin has been asked about multi-tools too. I have a Leatherman Wave multi-tool and in it, it has two blades (less than three inches long), one is serrated one is straight and both are locked open in use. I think it would be some stretch of the imaginatioin to suggest that it was an offensive weapon though.

"Excuse me, my dear fellow, please give me your wallet as I am robbing you; one moment, please."
Takes Leatherman from pocket, opens velcro cover, removes tool from cover, takes both handles and opens tool, finds required blade, finds lug that allows opening, opens blade, transfers to dominant hand and says in aggressive manner, "Now give me...oh, he's gone."

Multi-tool, the pacifist's weapon of choice.
 
ShinySideUp said:
The questioin has been asked about multi-tools too. I have a Leatherman Wave multi-tool and in it, it has two blades (less than three inches long), one is serrated one is straight and both are locked open in use. I think it would be some stretch of the imaginatioin to suggest that it was an offensive weapon though.

"Excuse me, my dear fellow, please give me your wallet as I am robbing you; one moment, please."
Takes Leatherman from pocket, opens velcro cover, removes tool from cover, takes both handles and opens tool, finds required blade, finds lug that allows opening, opens blade, transfers to dominant hand and says in aggressive manner, "Now give me...oh, he's gone."

Multi-tool, the pacifist's weapon of choice.
Click to expand...
Leather man tools have been illegal for a long time. Blade locks, innit?

I went to Japan recently and the knife laws there are even stricter. A cheap pair of trauma shears pass UK and Japanese legislation are are a good safe way to cut many things.
 
Do the new regs not mean a normal AND serrated edge on the same knife? Those Zombie knives usually have a regular cutting on the bottom and a deeply serrated edge on the top. Does a cheese knife become illegal as it has 2 points (basically a fork to pick up cheese) ???

I have two swiss army knives, the one I take fishing has two normal blades (the shorter one seems sharper than the "general" blade) plus a saw, and it also has a Spork for eating food.... The small knife is usually in my photography bag and also has both a straight edge and "saw".
 
ShinySideUp said:
Not that I can see. This is the full document:

Knife definition

Just in case retailers now stop selling decent-length bread knives, I've ordered another one for a spare as there is no point in a bread knife that is only eight inches or less in length; bread should live in fear once more!! Muhahahaha!
Click to expand...
I just read your document. My serrated bread knife like most doesn't have a sharp point. Therefore, no good for zombies. And legal.

Banning serrated knives with points over 8 inches seems sensible. I can think of a good use for each of those things but no good reason for all, other than maximising injuries.

Btw part serrated blades are fine. So a multi use blade with point, straight edge and a seated edge for say cutting rope seems fine to me.
 
ShinySideUp said:
takes both handles and opens tool
Click to expand...


You don't need to open the handles to open the blades on the Wave. Still slow and a bit awkward to get it out of its case and open either blade though!
 
cambsno said:
Well thats ok then, I mean, a one hundred year old weapon cant kill (I actually have a WW1 German bayonet too)
Click to expand...

The legislation is designed to stop the carrying of these so-called Zombie knives on our streets. They are, by all accounts, easy to buy. People like you with antique weapons aren't the sort to go out onto the streets with the intention of killing people..mainly young men.

I just think it's unhelpful to come up with scenarios such as your possession of an antique bayonet. It's going to an extreme. You seem to suggest that the ban should cover antique weapons,too. What about the historical battle and war reenactment pageants..very popular, and there are the ceremonial occasions, too and other such like events ?

For the first time, the ONS has, this year, published break down figures for murders carried out using bladed weapons by type ,not including the likes of hammers and screwdrivers and this showed that out of 244 bladed article murders only 3 were carried out with a sword and two of them were carried out using an axe, over 100 were carried out using kitchen knives and the rest being carried out with various forms of knife.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
 
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So if I carry a Leatherman tool in my biit as part of a tool kit, this is illegal?
 
Peter123 said:
So if I carry a Leatherman tool in my biit as part of a tool kit, this is illegal?
Click to expand...
If it has locking blades yes. I have a wave as I use it on a ship I volunteer on. I wear it on a belt but I doubt a copper would even know what it is never mind stop me for possession of one.
 
Peter123 said:
So if I carry a Leatherman tool in my biit as part of a tool kit, this is illegal?
Click to expand...

Some of them. I have a couple with non-locking blades and they're legal to carry on a belt. I also have one that's (allegedly!) TSA approved so I could take in on a plane should I so desire.
 
ShinySideUp said:
The current government are making some knives illegal if they exceed the following standards: (from the BBC website and extracted from The Criminal Justice Act 1988(Offensive Weapons) (Amendment,Surrender and Compensation) Order2024)

Zombie knives were first banned in 2016 but a new, broader definition, external designed to outlaw more blades will take effect in England and Wales on 24 September.

From then it will be illegal to own a knife with a sharpened blade longer than 8in (20cm), if it also has other features, including:

  • A serrated cutting edge
  • More than one hole in the blade
  • Spikes
  • More than two sharp points in the blade

It seems that after 24th September I will be breaking the law if I have in my possession...a bread knife.
I've just checked it, it is nine inches long and has a serrated blade.

If I hand it in, I will be given ten pounds and my bread will be safe from attack.

"Phew," says the bread, "That's a relief!"

Do things like this really help? If anyone had a 'zombie' knife previously for the purposes of killing someone, they are hardly like to be afraid of a fine for keeping it.

I'm almost tempted to go on Amazon and buy a load of 10 inch bread knives for £7.99 each, then claim ten quid for each of them when I hand them in.
Click to expand...

This was the first thing that crossed my mind when I read about that business handing in 35,000 knives.
 
Well, looking at the responses to my OP, it would seem like the government letting all the criminals out early is a good idea since most of us here will be inside, taking their places, because we all have illegal weapons. It just goes to show how difficult it is to draft laws that are truly relevant to real life.
The fact is, there are millions of 'illegal' knives out here in the real world and always will be. It is also true that almost nobody in possession of these knives will ever be prosecuted because we don't carry them in the street and we don't threaten people with them. Let's face it, I would probably be arrested if I threatened to kill someone in the street using an apple peeler. The law should really apply to intent, rather than the knives themselves, unless that weapon is specifically designed to intimidate and has little or no normal purpose.
 
ShinySideUp said:
Well, looking at the responses to my OP, it would seem like the government letting all the criminals out early is a good idea since most of us here will be inside, taking their places, because we all have illegal weapons. It just goes to show how difficult it is to draft laws that are truly relevant to real life.
The fact is, there are millions of 'illegal' knives out here in the real world and always will be. It is also true that almost nobody in possession of these knives will ever be prosecuted because we don't carry them in the street and we don't threaten people with them. Let's face it, I would probably be arrested if I threatened to kill someone in the street using an apple peeler. The law should really apply to intent, rather than the knives themselves, unless that weapon is specifically designed to intimidate and has little or no normal purpose.
Click to expand...
(My bold) It always has been (mens rea) but increasingly, all governments are eroding our rights and creating absolute offences (e.g. possession of zombie knives, driving in a bus lane, speeding and so on) to which there can be no defence, and the sad fact is that secondary legislation, which has not been discussed by parliament, is taking over. There are enough problems with primary legislation, where new laws are introduced after being fully discussed by both houses of parliament and have been voted upon, without the problems caused by secondary legislation, which includes Statutory Instruments, Statutory Rules and Orders, and where democracy has been circumvented.
 
JohnC6 said:
The legislation is designed to stop the carrying of these so-called Zombie knives on our streets. They are, by all accounts, easy to buy. People like you with antique weapons aren't the sort to go out onto the streets with the intention of killing people..mainly young men.

I just think it's unhelpful to come up with scenarios such as your possession of an antique bayonet. It's going to an extreme. You seem to suggest that the ban should cover antique weapons,too. What about the historical battle and war reenactment pageants..very popular, and there are the ceremonial occasions, too and other such like events ?

For the first time, the ONS has, this year, published break down figures for murders carried out using bladed weapons by type ,not including the likes of hammers and screwdrivers and this showed that out of 244 bladed article murders only 3 were carried out with a sword and two of them were carried out using an axe, over 100 were carried out using kitchen knives and the rest being carried out with various forms of knife.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good.
Click to expand...
Exactly this.

I think if a police officer saw a reenactor with a bayonet that conflicted with the law as part of their meticulously researched uniform, the correct response would be to caution them that this was no longer legal and that any future infringements would attract steeper penalties. There's no defence that this person didn't know the law (and in fact reenactors usually know the law very well) but there could be a difference in application.

A gang of people with shaved heads, muscle vests and 88 tattooed on their heads carrying the same knife on the way to a "football match" would meet with a very different outcome.

Stabbing somebody with a serrated blade is a very nasty thing to do. I'm relatively comfortable with a law that means somebody could be arrested before they did that.
 
My Swiss Army Knife was confiscated at Edinburgh airport a few years ago... because of the cork screw could be used as a weapon.... more dangerous than a blade it seems (which was allowed)....They wanted a lot of money to forward it, I declined their generous offer thinking I fancied a newer item...

Not sure how long some of our cheese knives are but they definitely fulfill the other 4 criteria....
 
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