I shoot photos for friend's uni project, then he said i don't own the rights of them

Hi oliwood,

I'd try and work it out amicably face to face/over a beer, he probably didn't think about copyright and from his point of view it's a bit like you taking wedding pics and putting them on facebook before the bride and groom got their copies.

The problem with texts, like forums, is that it's too easy to hit "send" while het up, so not a good way to do business, and while I realise they're your images you wouldn't have them without his request.

hope the outcome is ok for you both
QS
 
Just reminded me of a saying;
If you lend a friend a tenner and never see them again, it was worth it.
 
Quantum Sprite said:
Just reminded me of a saying;
If you lend a friend a tenner and never see them again, it was worth it.
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:lol: I know some people I would happily give £10 never to see again :lol:

Steve
 
Couldn't you simply have waited till he handed his project in before facebooking them? You remind me of people who get back from their hols and upload their pics the very next day!

His response was a bit over the top with the swearing, but I would also want to keep the pics under wraps till it was all handed in.

Why the eager beaver need to upload straight away?

If I was doing this for a mate, I would have waited till he/she handed the project in and then uploaded it.

And agree, some of the people responses here is idiotic.

Send him a copyright letters this that. Usual stupid responses you get from morons who seem to think the world and his dog knows/understand copyright laws.

I didn't know anything about copyright till I joined here. How the hell is the guy supposed to know either. It wouldn't help the situation if he suddenly gets an email with links to copyright. It will make the issue worse to receive a "I own these images, I own the copyright nah na na na nah" email.

Just speak to the guy and get it sorted.
 
Ask him if he wants a cup of shut the ****** up with his ****** off pill.

:)
 
onikami said:
Couldn't you simply have waited till he handed his project in before facebooking them? You remind me of people who get back from their hols and upload their pics the very next day!

His response was a bit over the top with the swearing, but I would also want to keep the pics under wraps till it was all handed in.

Why the eager beaver need to upload straight away?

If I was doing this for a mate, I would have waited till he/she handed the project in and then uploaded it.

And agree, some of the people responses here is idiotic.

Send him a copyright letters this that. Usual stupid responses you get from morons who seem to think the world and his dog knows/understand copyright laws.

I didn't know anything about copyright till I joined here. How the hell is the guy supposed to know either. It wouldn't help the situation if he suddenly gets an email with links to copyright. It will make the issue worse to receive a "I own these images, I own the copyright nah na na na nah" email.

Just speak to the guy and get it sorted.
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I uploaded the photos a week after the shooting. I only uploaded because I wanted to share with some of the actors friends who contributed to this project and happen to be on my fb. It never comes to my mind that this would trigger such anger out of him.
 
Oops. I accidentally formatted my memory cards and disk drive without taking a backup! shouldbe your facebook status, that'll learn him!
 
Just tape him to a chair with duct tape and slap him about his face with a large wet fish a few times. if you're feeling particularly mean leave a large telephoto lens face upright on the chair and make sure he's naked from the waist down before he sits dow! :exit:
 
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Lifes too short. Give him a call, not a text or email and sort it out. Mates do sometimes get tetchy with each other. You obviously wanted to help him in the first place and he wanted you to do the shoot.
It's just a misunderstanding that can be sorted over a beer. Leave egos at home and have a laugh.
Is it really worth loosing a mate over???


Kev.
 
onikami said:
Send him a copyright letters this that. Usual stupid responses you get from morons who seem to think the world and his dog knows/understand copyright laws.

I didn't know anything about copyright till I joined here. How the hell is the guy supposed to know either.
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Did you pretend that you did, though?
Usually when I don't understand some law, I dont try and quote it to someone to get what I want.
 
Go with Mike W and Hoppy's advice...

Just tell him politely what his legal position actually is (i.e. he doesn't have one) and come to a sensible arrangement.

If I recall correctly, this can be a stressful time for students unused to working under real pressure (students: you won't get fired for handing in a bad project on time or a good one after the deadline; bad crit wont kill you)...all that partying can take its toll and the realisation that the gravy-train is about to come to an end added to the prospect of having to look for a real job in the near future will no doubt be giving him sleepless nights...
 
Auwyn said:
Did you pretend that you did, though?
Usually when I don't understand some law, I dont try and quote it to someone to get what I want.
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Doubt it is about pretending anything. it is natural human reaction. If I am a film student and set something up and ask someone I know to photograph it, I would think (obviously mistakenly) that there were mine as it is my project.

He is over-reacting, but it is natural as it is a uni project and important to him.

From the OP's point, I too would be mighty peeved off to get an email like that-especially having done him a favour- but would ignore aggresive responses suggested by some of these lot.
 
The problem with copyright law, as it is currently universally applied, is that is runs contrary to most people's idea of natural justice in many situations.

I don't think it is any surprise at all that this guy thinks he has some rights to the images, since they were produced at his request and would not exist unless the OP had priviledged access to the project.

It happens all the time when models put pictures of themselves up on the web, and who's to say that, in all honestly, they should not have the right to do so?

The arrogance of some posters on here is breathtaking; the world does not revolve around your f/stop. If you explain basic copyright law to the average man on the Clapham omnibus, they don't think it's right, and it's very likely that the law will be changed to reflect that. It's already happening.
 
onikami said:
I didn't know anything about copyright till I joined here. How the hell is the guy supposed to know either. It wouldn't help the situation if he suddenly gets an email with links to copyright. It will make the issue worse to receive a "I own these images, I own the copyright nah na na na nah" email.

Just speak to the guy and get it sorted.
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If the guy is producing a video for his degree project and does not have any idea about copyright, so this sounds like some sort of media course then the university have cocked up big time - thats why he should know

Mike
 
Who needs friends when you have copyright and the moral high ground eh?
 
HoppyUK said:
The arrogance of some posters on here is breathtaking; the world does not revolve around your f/stop. If you explain basic copyright law to the average man on the Clapham omnibus, they don't think it's right, and it's very likely that the law will be changed to reflect that. It's already happening.
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Very well said Richard.
 
Well, it was a fairly big worm that was dangled in the first post. Not surprised you got a big bite ;)
 
I was a photography virgin. young and innocent. didn't deserve such treatment-all within the 1st page. :D
 
i agree with people who say try to remain friends. if it were me, i'd take the photos down, send him what he wants and then having nothing more to do with the project.

that might take him off guard and make him realise he's being a little, err, stupid. either way, dont email / text him much, it won't help.

sounds like you've been a good friend...
 
onikami said:
Take a look here at some of these peoples arrogance:

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=121241

This was when I first joined here and took up photography. Some of their responses is just crazy. All because I never heard of Leica or realised what a brand name they are.
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I only read the first page before I got bored so can't really comment on the rest of the thread, but I didnt see anyone being particularly arrogant or abrasive towards you.

There are two things you should bear in mind when posting on the intarwebs.

1) It is very difficult to get a feeling of the tone someone is attempting to convey due to the fact that it is all text. This is the primary reason most teenage communications end up with a huge dramafest and facebook ends up ridiculous. People read things in a defensive manner when there are any critical elements to the message, regardless of the originators' tone.

2) Despite point 1, people are often ********s on the internet because of the perceived anonymity and it is a lot easier to be abrasive when you dont have to do it in person. These people are often referred to as internet warriors or internet gangsters. They are funny. Celebrate the mirth.

You have to realise that words on the internet are just that. Words. Dont be so uptight about it. With regards to people finding it funny that someone hasnt heard of Leica and posting it on a photography forum, it's going to happen. Shrug it off and move on. It really doesnt hurt and life's too short.
 
I recently did a similar shoot for someones Masters presentation and to have some huge canvas prints done for a show, given the circumstances I am fully aware that she will want to use the shots for her own purposes and I wouldn't distribute them without asking her first. Once the shows etc are all done, i'll likely use one or two in my port.. or maybe not, I've not decided yet. She'll be getting most of the images on a disc from this too, not something I'd normally do but it's a different scenario to normal isn't it. I didn't want paying from her, I was helping her out and my reputation is worth more to me than the aggro you look like you could be causing yourself.
 
Auwyn said:
I only read the first page before I got bored so can't really comment on the rest of the thread, but I didnt see anyone being particularly arrogant or abrasive towards you.

There are two things you should bear in mind when posting on the intarwebs.

1) It is very difficult to get a feeling of the tone someone is attempting to convey due to the fact that it is all text. This is the primary reason most teenage communications end up with a huge dramafest and facebook ends up ridiculous. People read things in a defensive manner when there are any critical elements to the message, regardless of the originators' tone.

2) Despite point 1, people are often ********s on the internet because of the perceived anonymity and it is a lot easier to be abrasive when you dont have to do it in person. These people are often referred to as internet warriors or internet gangsters. They are funny. Celebrate the mirth.

You have to realise that words on the internet are just that. Words. Dont be so uptight about it. With regards to people finding it funny that someone hasnt heard of Leica and posting it on a photography forum, it's going to happen. Shrug it off and move on. It really doesnt hurt and life's too short.
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They're not just words. They have meaning and emotion, they can be very pointed and aimed to hurt. A harmful internet post is really no different to receiving a letter or nasty phone call. People get married off the internet, people get killed because of it.

One of the very best things about this particular website is that inconsiderate and offensive behaviour is not tolerated :thumbs: Anonymity is no excuse.
 
HoppyUK said:
They're not just words. They have meaning and emotion,
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That's my point. You cannot easily convey emotion through text in such a way as the recipient will accurately read it the way it was intended. In the thread in question, I honestly couldnt see anyone stepping out of line, in fact the posts on the first page (which were alluded to) were positively gentle IMO. The OP, though, read them very differently - defensively even - and took offence. Hence, if people accept that they are words on the internet, they are less likely to be needless troubled by them.

they can be very pointed and aimed to hurt. A harmful internet post is really no different to receiving a letter or nasty phone call. People get married off the internet, people get killed because of it.
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If I get a letter I dont like, I stop reading and throw it away (sorry council tax people). If I get a phone call I dont like, I end it. People are overly sensitive sometimes about language and it isnt helpful to anyone.

I agree that people end up getting killed because of words said on the internet, but that is an extreme example of people who dont realise that they are just words on the internet, as opposed to it being proof that it is much more than that. If people thought the way I do about it, that stupid behaviour just wouldnt happen. (I know that sounds arrogant...but what the hell).

One of the very best things about this particular website is that inconsiderate and offensive behaviour is not tolerated :thumbs: Anonymity is no excuse.
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I don't particularly agree with that. One of my favourite posters here is Arkady. He can be quite rude in the way he comes across sometimes. I love that and I don't agree that it is not tolerated. Downright offensiveness clearly isnt, and rightly so, but things don't have to be sweetness and light for the forum to be a good place to be. People just need not to take everything so seriously.
 
HoppyUK said:
The problem with copyright law, as it is currently universally applied, is that is runs contrary to most people's idea of natural justice in many situations.

I don't think it is any surprise at all that this guy thinks he has some rights to the images, since they were produced at his request and would not exist unless the OP had priviledged access to the project.

It happens all the time when models put pictures of themselves up on the web, and who's to say that, in all honestly, they should not have the right to do so?

The arrogance of some posters on here is breathtaking; the world does not revolve around your f/stop. If you explain basic copyright law to the average man on the Clapham omnibus, they don't think it's right, and it's very likely that the law will be changed to reflect that. It's already happening.
Click to expand...

There have been plenty of discussions about this on here, including one particularly acrimonious one that ran for ages last year!

IIRC, some of the pros who responded were quite content with the status quo, which isn't surprising, but many of the other posters (including myself) felt that we should go back to the previous laws, where the copyright for commissioned work belonged to the client/customer.

I don't know where this would leave the OP though. Would a request from a friend, like this, constitute commissioned work if there was no exchange of value? Could the friend claim that the work would not have come into existence if he had not arranged it? The OP did say that the actors were personal friends of his too.
 
I have to agree with Hoppy. They're not 'just words' they can be kind, hurtful amnd cause the full range of emotions. Very few people on here hide behind any form of anonimity so they don't have that somewhat spurious excuse either
 
Auwyn said:
I don't particularly agree with that. One of my favourite posters here is Arkady. He can be quite rude in the way he comes across sometimes. I love that and I don't agree that it is not tolerated. Downright offensiveness clearly isnt, and rightly so, but things don't have to be sweetness and light for the forum to be a good place to be. People just need not to take everything so seriously.
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I think Rob (I hope he won't mind me saying) is a bad example of this. He can be forthright, and doesn't tolerate fools, but that are often times when he does upset some people, has been suspended and I think, sails pretty close to the wind as to what is tolerated sometimes.
 
boyfalldown said:
I have to agree with Hoppy. They're not 'just words' they can be kind, hurtful amnd cause the full range of emotions. Very few people on here hide behind any form of anonimity so they don't have that somewhat spurious excuse either
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The anonymity comment was about the internet in general rather than this forum, where people often know each other off the boards.
My point about the emotions is that even without any malignant intent, people still take offence, which indicates that they are either looking for reasons to be upset, or just taking things too seriously. This isnt a place where people do or are able to be explicitly offensive towards other people, which makes it even more daft where people get upset about comments from someone they probably dont know or ever will.

My ethos on the internet is that people can and will say what they think, about me, my work, the things and the people I hold dear. That is their right and some abuse that right. Personally, I dont really care as they are simply pixels on my computer screen and I can take note of things that matter and ignore things that dont.

This is, I guess, shaped somewhat by my experience of lots of parents of kids rushing into schools bleating about their kids being bullied at the first sign of conflict between kids rather than teaching the kids how to manage conflict (recognising of course that bullying does occur and needs to be addressed).
 
onikami said:
Take a look here at some of these peoples arrogance:

http://www.talkphotography.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=121241

This was when I first joined here and took up photography. Some of their responses is just crazy. All because I never heard of Leica or realised what a brand name they are.
Click to expand...

Blimey, just read through that. My conclusion was to agree with Radiohead's reply though, sorry!
I'm not seeing any condescending posts towards the OP.

What I did see was someone look at a price without knowing what the camera is or does, compare to to a DSLR when it's a very different tool, want it without knowing why, complain because it's not affordable for him, then label it as a rich-man's plaything and then act quite aggressively towards anyone pointing out that (whisper it, on a photography forum) it might be worth finding out more about something before taking an entrenched position.

Bizarre.
__________________
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Anyway, all that's in the past, and at least it gave you an idea what Leica's are. :thumbs:
 
Auwyn said:
That's my point. You cannot easily convey emotion through text in such a way as the recipient will accurately read it the way it was intended. In the thread in question, I honestly couldnt see anyone stepping out of line, in fact the posts on the first page (which were alluded to) were positively gentle IMO. The OP, though, read them very differently - defensively even - and took offence. Hence, if people accept that they are words on the internet, they are less likely to be needless troubled by them.



If I get a letter I dont like, I stop reading and throw it away (sorry council tax people). If I get a phone call I dont like, I end it. People are overly sensitive sometimes about language and it isnt helpful to anyone.

I agree that people end up getting killed because of words said on the internet, but that is an extreme example of people who dont realise that they are just words on the internet, as opposed to it being proof that it is much more than that. If people thought the way I do about it, that stupid behaviour just wouldnt happen. (I know that sounds arrogant...but what the hell).



I don't particularly agree with that. One of my favourite posters here is Arkady. He can be quite rude in the way he comes across sometimes. I love that and I don't agree that it is not tolerated. Downright offensiveness clearly isnt, and rightly so, but things don't have to be sweetness and light for the forum to be a good place to be. People just need not to take everything so seriously.
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Edit: Oops! Crossed post with a few other peeps. Not ganging up on you Emma! :lol:

I don't accept your explanation as any justification for some of the abuse that goes on, with no consideration for those on the receiving end. It happens here too, but nothing like it does on DPReview for example (which is sad place indeed).

I think you're just thick skinned, and that's just as well. I think I am too. But if, as you say, you don't take any notice of what's said on the internet, or what comes through your letter box, or even phone calls, then you must be flippin bullet proof. Most folks are not actually, despite a brave face.

Rob (Arkady) is not a good example to support your argument. He's a popular and respected poster because while he speaks his mind, he justifies it and has even been known to acknowledge when he is wrong (to my infinite pleasure :D ). He gets banned from time to time, but there but for the grace of God... ;) He's not a spiteful sniper from the rooftops and his basic intention is always to be helpful. Mostly, he manages it - in his own special way :eek:
 
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Auwyn said:
The anonymity comment was about the internet in general rather than this forum, where people often know each other off the boards.
My point about the emotions is that even without any malignant intent, people still take offence, which indicates that they are either looking for reasons to be upset, or just taking things too seriously. This isnt a place where people do or are able to be explicitly offensive towards other people, which makes it even more daft where people get upset about comments from someone they probably dont know or ever will.

My ethos on the internet is that people can and will say what they think, about me, my work, the things and the people I hold dear. That is their right and some abuse that right. Personally, I dont really care as they are simply pixels on my computer screen and I can take note of things that matter and ignore things that dont. ).
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I'll be straight, while were speaking our minds ;). I don't believe that. I'm all for an open and sometimes heated debate, but I pleased for you you can ignopre things that allegedly don't matter, cause to most people they do. This isn't a forum like dpreview, and many of the poster know each other face to face too. Saying what you think is one thing,being offensive quite another.

Hugh
 
There lies the problem though Richard. |Due to the nature of humans,we are all different. I prefer somebody to be honest and truthful with me, I don`t mind bluntness as long as when it is reciprocated no dummy spitting ensues.

Some like to be led round by the hand through the fluffy world of human kindness. Guess we are all different.
 
HoppyUK said:
Edit: Oops! Crossed post with a few other peeps. Not ganging up on you Emma! :lol:
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It's fine. They are just words on the internet ;)

I don't accept your explanation as any justification for some of the abuse that goes on, with no consideration for those on the receiving end. It happens here too, but nothing like it does on DPReview for example (which is sad place indeed).
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I'm not trying to justify abuse, simply to acknowledge that it happens on the internet. I frequent a different forum where the level of banter that goes on would be - to someone unfamiliar to the posters - be extremely abusive. It is what it is, for me. I have outgrown my nerdrages and feel much better for it.

I think you're just thick skinned, and that's just as well. I think I am too. But if, as you say, you don't take any notice of what's said on the internet, or what comes through your letter box, or even phone calls, then you must be flippin bullet proof. Most folks are not actually, despite a brave face.
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You dont manage life in my line of work for as long as I have with a nervous disposition ;)

Rob (Arkady) is not a good example to support your argument. He's a popular and respected poster because while he speaks his mind, he justifies it and has even been known to acknowledge when he is wrong (to my infinite pleasure :D ). He gets banned from time to time, but there but for the grace of God... ;) He's not a spiteful sniper from the rooftops and his basic intention is always to be helpful. Mostly, he manages it - in his own special way :eek:
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I think he's a great example. I didnt know about the bannings, I have to be honest, but all I have seen from him is blunt honesty with a healthy dose of humour. I like that and love reading his posts. All you have said about him in your quote above, reinforces my view of his style of posting.

Fracster said:
There lies the problem though Richard. |Due to the nature of humans,we are all different. I prefer somebody to be honest and truthful with me, I don`t mind bluntness as long as when it is reciprocated no dummy spitting ensues.

Some like to be led round by the hand through the fluffy world of human kindness. Guess we are all different.
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I agree.
 
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