I need help/suggestions

Messiah Khan

Messiah Khan

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Alasdair Fowler
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Hello fellow TPers. I could do with some help or a big favour. Yesterday I went for an interview at a Photography studio. The job sounded ideal and it would have been a great opportunity. Unfortunately it turned out to be an absolute complete waste of time and money. I traveled from County Durham to London, taking me 4 hours to get there, £150 on a train ticket, and had to take a day off work. When I got to the company, the interview lasted no more than 5 minutes as they wrote me off on the spot because I had no medium or large format camera experience.

Now I would accept being unsuccessfull due to a gap in my skills. But there was no mention of this being a requirement in the job description, and it was obvious that I didn't have this experience from my CV. But it also became obvious that they hadn't even bothered to read my CV before asking me to travel down. The general interview was also appaling as the interviewer didn't listen to my answers and I kept having to repeat answers, and there was loud music playing in the background as it was conducted in the company bar. Right at the end of the 'interview' I asked if there was a traveling expense procdure, but was quickly shot down with a very sarcastic comment and tone of voice. So that was a complete waste of my time and money.

Anyway trying to be positive, it has shown me that the lack of medium and large format camera experience is a gap that I need to fill. So does anyone know of a way that I can get some experience in these areas? I have alway said that I can see myself getting a MF or LF film camera one day, but not until I can dvelop the film myself, which is simply not possible that the moment. Are there any short courses (Preferably cheapish) that will allow me to get my hands on this kit, or is there anyone is the region willing to spend some time sharing their knowledge with me. I also ideally need Phase one/Leaf back experience, but how im going to get this without working for a company that use them I don't know. :shrug:
 
Messiah Khan said:
Hello fellow TPers. I could do with some help or a big favour. Yesterday I went for an interview at a Photography studio. The job sounded ideal and it would have been a great opportunity. Unfortunately it turned out to be an absolute complete waste of time and money. I traveled from County Durham to London, taking me 4 hours to get there, £150 on a train ticket, and had to take a day off work. When I got to the company, the interview lasted no more than 5 minutes as they wrote me off on the spot because I had no medium or large format camera experience.

Now I would accept being unsuccessfull due to a gap in my skills. But there was no mention of this being a requirement in the job description, and it was obvious that I didn't have this experience from my CV. But it also became obvious that they hadn't even bothered to read my CV before asking me to travel down. The general interview was also appaling as the interviewer didn't listen to my answers and I kept having to repeat answers, and there was loud music playing in the background as it was conducted in the company bar. Right at the end of the 'interview' I asked if there was a traveling expense procdure, but was quickly shot down with a very sarcastic comment and tone of voice. So that was a complete waste of my time and money.

Anyway trying to be positive, it has shown me that the lack of medium and large format camera experience is a gap that I need to fill. So does anyone know of a way that I can get some experience in these areas? I have alway said that I can see myself getting a MF or LF film camera one day, but not until I can dvelop the film myself, which is simply not possible that the moment. Are there any short courses (Preferably cheapish) that will allow me to get my hands on this kit, or is there anyone is the region willing to spend some time sharing their knowledge with me. I also ideally need Phase one/Leaf back experience, but how im going to get this without working for a company that use them I don't know. :shrug:
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Sorry to hear that. Sounds like a nightmare scenario and a typical ott studio full of idiots.

Re - MF. Well, in essence it is the same science but different type of film size and of course digital. Not had a great deal of use myself, but as I say, the maths of F stop is the same as is light.

Gutted to read about the experience. I would draft a letter of distaste to them myself.

Pete.
 
Sorry to hear about your bad day MK. The good news is MF cameras are dirt cheap 2nd hand now. My choice would be a Mamiya RB67. ;)
 
Cheers Pete. Don't worry, im writing a letter of complaint to the Managing Director as we speak. Yeah, I realise the science is the same, but unfortunately I need the experience or a bit of paper saying that I know how it all works. Its more the hardware experience that I need more than anything, so I know how to fix it if something goes wrong.
 
Diego Garcia said:
Gutted to read about the experience. I would draft a letter of distaste to them myself.

Pete.
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Beat me to it:bang:

I would second that, if nothing else it lets them know how shoddy they are :thumbs:
 
Messiah Khan said:
Cheers Pete. Don't worry, im writing a letter of complaint to the Managing Director as we speak. Yeah, I realise the science is the same, but unfortunately I need the experience or a bit of paper saying that I know how it all works. Its more the hardware experience that I need more than anything, so I know how to fix it if something goes wrong.
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Cool - I dont think you need to mention your lack of experience of MF etc, just the way the interview was handled.

Finally, dont forget the networks work in funny ways so keep it polite. Working as a photographer in Bristol is a nightmare, everyone knows everyones prices, who they are, what they can do and what the attitude is like....
 
what a bummer
bit miserable to "fail" you on something not mentioned in the requirements
sounds like they were going through a "must advertise this post" exercise when they already had the place filled

Better luck next time
 
It's good that you are writing to their managing director, they should know at least that their interviewing technique sucks.

On the subject of MF expperience did the guy actually mention Phase One/Leaf to you? that's pretty a specific requirement and should really have been mentioned in the advert. As you say it's not really the kind of thing you're going to have experience with unless you've already been employed in a studio.
 
CT said:
Sorry to hear about your bad day MK. The good news is MF cameras are dirt cheap 2nd hand now. My choice would be a Mamiya RB67. ;)
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Cheers, but as mentioned id rather stay away from buying MF or LF kit until I can develop the film myself. Im also trying to keep my camera kit spending down a bit now, as I realised that if I do get a job im going to need some money for deposits on a house etc. (But on a slight sidenote, can you get MF film developed on the highstreet or view webcompanies? What about 4X5 film or 8x10?)

Diego Garcia said:
Finally, dont forget the networks work in funny ways so keep it polite. Working as a photographer in Bristol is a nightmare, everyone knows everyones prices, who they are, what they can do and what the attitude is like....
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Yeah, im trying to find the right tone to come across annoyed and stern, yet polite.

Steep said:
On the subject of MF expperience did the guy actually mention Phase One/Leaf to you? that's pretty a specific requirement and should really have been mentioned in the advert. As you say it's not really the kind of thing you're going to have experience with unless you've already been employed in a studio.
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The closest the description came to mentioning MF or LF was something along the lines of; "Phase hardware and software experience would be an advantage".

oldfart said:
as for experience using MF & LF great place will be local camera club, some of the 'old timer' really know thier stuff and willing to pass on experience.
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Im a member of 2 photography clubs. I however have pretty much stopped going to one of them as its full of grumpy old gits with attitude problems. (Some nice people in there as well mind). But as for getting the knowledge and experience I need out of them its doubtfull.
 
I strongly advise against writing any kind of letter. The pro photo world is a small one, and studio work is a small section of the whole. Its likely that your name is already doing the rounds as the one who didn't know that studio work involves large format. You probably did know, but that won't be the story that gets around. Thats enough of a barrier to get over without adding to it.
Most studio pros that I know - including me - started as a voluntary go-fer. That gets you the all important basic knowledge and, with luck, a good reference.


I have long held the view that staff are the most important part of any business and any business that realises that will always pay reasonable travel expenses. Not getting that particular job may turn out to be a good thing in the long run.



It is only partly true to say that the basic science is the same. For large format work you need to be aware of the effects of rising front, back swing and tilt, front swing and tilt, Scheimpflug Rule etc etc. When you have got that lot in your mind you will probably need to get to grips with the zone system - the proper zone system not the modified version that people use for small format stuff - unless of course you can find a colour only studio. Or one thats digital only.

I suggest you have a look in the second hand book shop for a set of three books by Ansel Adams.
The Camera
The Negative
The Print.

all from the new Ansel Adams Photography Series published by Little, Brown and Company. They will give you all the theory you need.

In the meantime build up your portfolio and look out for voluntary opportunities.
 
Just seen your comment about D&P of large format. If you stick to B&W you can dev at home using small print dishes and do contact prints. Not ideal but all you need (apart from the camera) is a few dishes and a room you can black out. Or do what I did in the early days - D&P at night.
 
Thanks for your lengthy post John. I will however still be sending my letter off as I believe the way in which the company conducted themselves was very poor. As for the use of LF cameras, I knew that they were used, but in this instance they didn't specify it on the job description and they didn't read my CV, which could have answered their question without the need for my to waste my time and money.

Also the job I was going for is practically the same job as I have been doing for 2 1/2 years, bar the use of some of the kit. Surely its very short sighted, ruling someone out purely on the basis of lack of experience with a piece of kit when I have experience and knowledge of everything else they listed.

As for voluntary work, im sure this is a good way of gaining the experience, however I don't see how this is possible in my situation. There are no studios in the surrounding area, and I simply couldn't afford to move to just to do voluntary work.
 
I take your point but you need to be aware that LF is expensive. The last time I used 5x4 kodachrome it was over £2 a shot. I can't remember what I was paying for 14x12 but it was VERY expensive. By the time you add in the processing it is just too expensive for most studios to allow someone to learn on , unless they are either working for nothing or are full time at apprentice rates with a long term future with the firm. And thats before you add in the overheads of running a studio and loss of profit if the pro is teaching the newbie what happens if you swing the front standard.

My experience with amateurs - and is my experience and should not be seen by you or any body else as an attack on you - is that they usually don't have the right approach.

You only have to look at the amount of kit most amateurs have, far more than many pros. Edward Weston said an amateur photographer is someone who can't manage without more equipment than a professional could possibly use.

The other problem is commitment. A popular interview question - popular with me anyway - is to ask "what will you do if you don't make it in phography?". I never employed anyone who said that they would go back to the day job. No matter how good they were. I did at least consider employing the ones who said that if they failed with me they would try elsewhere or go it alone or go to college. In fact any answer that showed that taking pictures was the most important thing.

Photography as a hobby often involves collecting shiny new toys as part of the fun.The collection and the money spent on it doesn't have to be justified in a balance sheet. Its the fun that matters. I can't begin to justify the amount I spend on a very old car which can't realistically be used except in fine weather on quiet roads as it has a top speed of about 45. If I feel like working on it I do, if I don't I do something else. Thats the nice thing about hobbies.
But as a pro, whether photographer, car restorer or whatever the end has to be making a profit.

BTW - i don't have any problem with amateurs. After all when I retired I became one, and I have, over the years, employed a few.
 
JohnW said:
I take your point but you need to be aware that LF is expensive. The last time I used 5x4 kodachrome it was over £2 a shot. I can't remember what I was paying for 14x12 but it was VERY expensive. By the time you add in the processing it is just too expensive for most studios to allow someone to learn on , unless they are either working for nothing or are full time at apprentice rates with a long term future with the firm. And thats before you add in the overheads of running a studio and loss of profit if the pro is teaching the newbie what happens if you swing the front standard.

My experience with amateurs - and is my experience and should not be seen by you or any body else as an attack on you - is that they usually don't have the right approach.

You only have to look at the amount of kit most amateurs have, far more than many pros. Edward Weston said an amateur photographer is someone who can't manage without more equipment than a professional could possibly use.

The other problem is commitment. A popular interview question - popular with me anyway - is to ask "what will you do if you don't make it in phography?". I never employed anyone who said that they would go back to the day job. No matter how good they were. I did at least consider employing the ones who said that if they failed with me they would try elsewhere or go it alone or go to college. In fact any answer that showed that taking pictures was the most important thing.

Photography as a hobby often involves collecting shiny new toys as part of the fun.The collection and the money spent on it doesn't have to be justified in a balance sheet. Its the fun that matters. I can't begin to justify the amount I spend on a very old car which can't realistically be used except in fine weather on quiet roads as it has a top speed of about 45. If I feel like working on it I do, if I don't I do something else. Thats the nice thing about hobbies.
But as a pro, whether photographer, car restorer or whatever the end has to be making a profit.

BTW - i don't have any problem with amateurs. After all when I retired I became one, and I have, over the years, employed a few.
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I found the answer very interesting
and the bit that I've have emboldened should be added to the pro/am debate on another thread
 
Why is it not possible to develope your own negs ?
Did they give any specific's as to why experience with M/F & L/F was absolutely neccesary, I cant fathom what the job entails, is it assisting, was there a job title/description ?
 
JohnW said:
*snip*
The other problem is commitment.
*snip*
BTW - i don't have any problem with amateurs. After all when I retired I became one, and I have, over the years, employed a few.
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Again, thanks for your post John. Commitment is one area im confident about. My girlfriend, family and friends can be testament that I now live, eat and breathe photography. I have't been doing it very long, but it is the natural culmination of years of interest in similar creative subjects. Why I didn't discovered photography earlier I don't know, but now that I have, it really has changed my life.

As for amateurs vs professionals, I don't see there being a great seperation. Obviously professionals are having to get the shots to pay the bills, and have to look at the entire subject from a different angle, but with both there should be an underlying love for photography. Also most professionals will have started off as amateurs at some point, so as long as the amateur shows a willingness to graft and develop in a way that will help to progress the company I don't see there being any reason as to not employ so called amateurs.

joxby said:
Why is it not possible to develope your own negs ?
Did they give any specific's as to why experience with M/F & L/F was absolutely neccesary, I cant fathom what the job entails, is it assisting, was there a job title/description ?
Click to expand...

At the moment I don't have anywhere suitable to set up as a darkroom unfortunately. Having spoken to a collegue this afternoon, I should be able to pick up a full set of darkroom kit for free if I want. I might accept it incase I can find somewhere to set it up eventually, as it will probably be thrown out otherwise.

The job was working in a studio company booking out, cleaning, repairing and tracking etc all the studio kit used by clients and providing technical support. My current job includes booking out, cleaning, repairing and tracking cameras, studio kit etc to students as well as providing IT support. So the job really isn't that different at all from the description. As I say, I would have accepted not being successfull because someone had better experience than me, but to get me all the way down to London, then reject me on the grounds of something that is not mentioned in the job description, and could have been answered over a phonecall or simply by looking at my CV made me somewhat annoyed to say the least.
 
Messiah Khan said:
As for amateurs vs professionals, I don't see there being a great seperation.
Click to expand...
A pro may spend weeks at atime photographing things he or she doesn't like under appalling conditions. Amateurs tend to take pics of things that interest them and go home - or to the beer tent - when it rains. As I do these days :D

I once spent a week at wimbledon taking pics of the tennis. A pro mate of mine , a sports specialist, broke his leg and couldn't go. I borrowed his kit and his permit and spent the most most boring week of my life photographing something I have no knowledge of and no interest in. The other pros helped with names of players and the pics were published under my friends name. He asked me to do the job because I was the only pro he knew that was free that week. At that time he taught a lot at camera clubs and uni photo courses and could have asked any number of sport mad amateurs. He picked me because he could guarantee I wouldn't give up when I got bored, I wouldn't accept second best, I wouldn't spend all my time in the bar, I would watch the tennis not the girls in the crowd.

It may well be that one of the amateurs would have done the job exactly as I did - but that couldn't be guaranteed and his mortgage depended on the results.
 
JohnW said:
A pro may spend weeks at atime photographing things he or she doesn't like under appalling conditions. Amateurs tend to take pics of things that interest them and go home - or to the beer tent - when it rains. As I do these days :D

It may well be that one of the amateurs would have done the job exactly as I did - but that couldn't be guaranteed and his mortgage depended on the results.
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Hehe. I can genuinly say that rain doesn't stop me these days. Not a great deal does. I'll admit that I go out and mostly shoot things that interest me, however im perfectly willing to shoot anything at all, as long as I have a camera in my hands im happy. I also consider myself to be very loyal, and if someone had trusted me to get shots for them I would probably end up spending more effort on them than if it was to be under my own name. Without sounding big headed, I know I am cut out for this industry. I just need to find a way to fight my way in and get on to the ladder. :)
 
Messiah Khan said:
At the moment I don't have anywhere suitable to set up as a darkroom unfortunately. Having spoken to a collegue this afternoon, I should be able to pick up a full set of darkroom kit for free if I want. I might accept it incase I can find somewhere to set it up eventually, as it will probably be thrown out otherwise.

The job was working in a studio company booking out, cleaning, repairing and tracking etc all the studio kit used by clients and providing technical support. My current job includes booking out, cleaning, repairing and tracking cameras, studio kit etc to students as well as providing IT support. So the job really isn't that different at all from the description. As I say, I would have accepted not being successfull because someone had better experience than me, but to get me all the way down to London, then reject me on the grounds of something that is not mentioned in the job description, and could have been answered over a phonecall or simply by looking at my CV made me somewhat annoyed to say the least.
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Your right about the job, there ought to have been some mention of basic requirements, M/F L/F could be considered kinda niche, thats at best fairly thoughtless, at worst pretty shabby practice on their part, its probably to your advantage you aren't working for that type of employer.
I'd call them assholes, put it down to experience and move swiftly on.

You only need a darkroom to print negs, you dont need one to develope negs.
I have a...errr..kitchen and a bedroom with a strategically positioned "crack at the bottom of the door" coat:lol:
You only need a darkened room to load the reel and put it in the tank, all the nuts & bolts of developing fixing chemical additions are done in daylight....on the kitchen draining board.
The tanks are designed with a light proof funnel type top, from which you add, wash, and empty everything.

edit....ah, I read through everything again, tanks are great for 35mm and M/F, but 4x5 and 8x10 is sheet film and will need to be developed in trays, I'm not sure how easy that is done via the bedroom and kitchen draining board.
You might need a darkroom for L/F
 
JohnW said:
A pro may spend weeks at atime photographing things he or she doesn't like under appalling conditions. Amateurs tend to take pics of things that interest them and go home - or to the beer tent - when it rains. As I do these days :D

I once spent a week at wimbledon taking pics of the tennis. A pro mate of mine , a sports specialist, broke his leg and couldn't go. I borrowed his kit and his permit and spent the most most boring week of my life photographing something I have no knowledge of and no interest in. The other pros helped with names of players and the pics were published under my friends name. He asked me to do the job because I was the only pro he knew that was free that week. At that time he taught a lot at camera clubs and uni photo courses and could have asked any number of sport mad amateurs. He picked me because he could guarantee I wouldn't give up when I got bored, I wouldn't accept second best, I wouldn't spend all my time in the bar, I would watch the tennis not the girls in the crowd.

It may well be that one of the amateurs would have done the job exactly as I did - but that couldn't be guaranteed and his mortgage depended on the results.
Click to expand...

I think its a fair point, but I would say that the scene has moved on and changed perhaps. The advent of digital (affordable) has allowed people with more than a passing interest in a set sport to shoot it to a reasonable standard. Citing myself as an example, about five years ago I used to have a season ticket to watch Bristol City. Two seasons ago I attained accreditation with the FA via an agency, and I have covered City many times. However, I dont sit there and watch the match, trying to suck the ball into the net, I get the job done pitch side with an FTP upload needed throughout the game. In all honesty, it has made me realise what an awful game football is at that level, and I can understand why managers get uptight. When you see some footballer miscontrol a ball yet getting £50K a week you have to wonder why. As a paradox, I left Rugby behind years ago, but bloody love covering it as its a great game that lends itself the camera in every way.

So I think it is down to the individual and though I have not met MK, I suspect he has it, whatever it is......

In my opinion, once people go 'pro' they close the shop door and join this elite band of people that forget that they once had the same dreams and aspirations as they people they dismiss. Seen it time and time again....and finally, lets be honest, with reference to local rags, here in Bristol it is a closed shop, but week in week out, I see photos here, POTN, Nikon Cafe etal which shame most paid 'daily' snappers out there. I am afraid that time served does not make these people good photographers.

Pete.
 
apart from getting your "toe in the door"
it seems to me that not getting this job is a blessing in disguise
from what I've seen of your work you would be grossly over-qualified for that job
agreed, it's a shame that you got rejected for the wrong reason and in the wrong manner
mebbe you'll get the right job next time

good luck!
 
No one can doubt MK's passion, drive and determination...and you only need to look at one of his pics to see the incredible talent he has.
 
Messiah Khan said:
Yeah, im trying to find the right tone to come across annoyed and stern, yet polite.
Click to expand...

I think a better tone would be keen but disappointed.
 
Hi MK! You have had a bad experience - sounds like you're better off not working for this outfit. You obviously have the skills they advbertised for.

Re. obtaining some exp with MF and LF may I suggest enroling on a tog course at your local college? I did this some years ago - evening class HNC Photography and I got to play with some gear that I couldn't justify buying for myself. More, the college I attended were happy for me (and others) to use their darkroom and studio for personal projects when not required by students.

Mostly tho' I enjoyed the interaction with the other students and I think that the exposure to other people's ideas and approaches was more 'valuable' to me than anything else I gained/learned.
 
joxby said:
edit....ah, I read through everything again, tanks are great for 35mm and M/F, but 4x5 and 8x10 is sheet film and will need to be developed in trays, I'm not sure how easy that is done via the bedroom and kitchen draining board.
You might need a darkroom for L/F
Click to expand...
I used to dish process everything up to and including 14x12. You need sufficient space for three large trays - and room to rock them with no chance of tipping over one of the others. You also need complete darkness.
But that was because I used the Zone system and gave each neg individual development and all I needed was a small amount of the right dilution of chemical in each tray.


If you must get in to LF and are willing to batch process you can use a LF dev tank which will allow daylight processing after loading in complete darkness.
http://www.robertwhite.co.uk/Large accessories.htm#combi
 
Miss McT said:
No one can doubt MK's passion, drive and determination...and you only need to look at one of his pics to see the incredible talent he has.
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I couldn't agree more and would have had no problem employing him based on his work.

I have never met MK and don't suggest that the following comments apply to him.


BUT I would have needed to be sure he wasn't just looking for some paid LF training before moving on AND if I would have needed to be sure he would fit in.

Fitting in is important. Unless you are a household name in studio work with customers queuing round the block, you can't afford to upset clients.
I have known a studio to go broke after an assistant refused to make coffee for a model. He was busy with the lighting rig, she had nothing to do until the lights were right so he told her to make her own coffee. She had a hissy fit and walked out. She got the word round among the models that the studio were rubbish, they got no more custom and went broke.
 
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