I have a picture selected for publication

Like others, I make my living from photography (for better or worse). I find it difficult to accept the fact that some people choose to give their photographs away for free to publications when they're clearly of value (in £'s)...

BUT....

.....It's the OPs photograph and its for him to do with as he pleases. If he's happy that his payment comes in terms of 'satisfaction' rather than GBP then its up to him and nobody else. Good luck to him.
 
hashcake said:
'I am writing to let you know that one of your photos has
been short-listed for inclusion in the sixth edition of our
Schmap London Guide, to be published early March 2009.'

Although there is no payment involved, I get full recognition as the photographer and a link to my flickr account.
The email came out of the blue and I am more than willing to let them publish the photo.
Fingers crossed they select it :)
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Can I just say congratultions ?
 
AliB said:
So instead of giving money he gives images...............That's actually recognising that the images DO have value.

Of course the charity makes money from the images, that's the whole point. But it's what they do with the money that is different. One gives it to good causes for the benefit of others while the other makes profit for it's shareholders if it's a company.

That's a huge difference and hardly hypocritial IMHO.
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I won't argue with you Ali, I'll just agree to disagree.
 
jerry12953 said:
You are entitled to your opinions, but I do object to the word "crying".

How else does one attempt to change photographers minds?
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You say 'change photographers minds' like they are doing something wrong? Who's to say it isn't you who should change your mind?

Photographers seem to think they are some sort of special case but it happens in loads of industries, I've worked in IT for years and would struggle to earn a decent living doing things now that 20 years ago would have seen me on 50K a year. Times change.
 
a1ex2001 said:
You say 'change photographers minds' like they are doing something wrong? Who's to say it isn't you who should change your mind?
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Nothing. But I was hoping that I could show what the bigger picture was like. Not for your benefit a1ex, but there must be others here who read but don't contribute.

It's interesting to hear another point of view, and both you and Simmotino have made valid points which have made me think .

I was wondering, though, if there was any other field of endeavour where people were so glad to give away their work. Perhaps IT is one?
 
Well done on being published-Was the photo taken at Gunnersbury Park by any chance? Nice pic. Rob
 
jerry12953 said:
Nothing. But I was hoping that I could show what the bigger picture was like.

It's interesting to hear another point of view, and both you and Simmotino have made valid points which have made me think .

I was wondering, though, if there was any other field of endeavour where people were so glad to give away their work. Perhaps IT is one?
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It's difficult to think of a direct comparison as there are very few industries with such a simple end product, especially one that can be a genuine bi-product of someones hoby or holiday. The web has also made millions of images easily accessible flikr is just one example of a site that is packed with comercial quality images, most industries don't have these mass markets.

Before people start flaming me I'm not saying photography has no skill or anything like that, I'm just saying that I've spent less than £500 on gear read a couple of books and a website and with a years casual shooting people have offered me money for prints. My results are not consistent and I couldn't possibly hope to make a proper living out of photography but I do occasionally produce images that are of a sufficient standard to be used comercially.

Technology dramatically alters busineses, try asking an accountant who's approaching retirment what it was like in the old days. He will still be earning good money but the number of people he employs will have dropped like a brick off a tower since the advent of computers. Other jobs have gone completely ask the millions of retired telephone operators. I appreciate these aren't people giving stuff away for free but it's a similar story of technology revolutionising an industry. If you want a freebie, I cut me neighbours hedge 2-3 times a year saving them from paying a gardner and I don't feel bad about it.

The same transition is now happening to photography the digital revolution has changed the industry forever, getting the perfect shot everytime still requires the same skill as it always did but getting a decent shot just requires a bigger memory card. My parents would never buy me a decent camera as a kid and I was always put off by the cost and dispointment that accompanied learning with film, now everyone has a camera and DSLR's are affordable for just about anyone. The world has changed and it will never change back.
 
feek said:
Well done on being published-Was the photo taken at Gunnersbury Park by any chance? Nice pic. Rob
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It's Kenwood House in North London :)
 
Coo, I have opened a large can of worms!
However, it's an interesting debate.
Too be honest I would love to make money out of my photography but I feel that I have so much to learn before my photos are anywhere near good enough.
It would be a dream come true to one day turn it into a career but I am not banking on it.
I've learned so much from the helps and tips I have received via this forum the last few months and probably more than I would if I had read a dozen books.

I totally understand the point of view from those who make a living from photography and I fully respect what you guys have said.

Someone mentioned giving there services away for free and this does raise a valid point.
I've worked in IT for a long time and if I had charged for my services when it came to family, friends or friends of friends, I would have certainly made a lot more money.
However, a few years ago I came to the conclusion that I wasn't prepared to continue doing this for friends and friends of friends because they always expected me to drop everything so that I could help them.
I did try charging but when I got a look of horror on their faces I decided enough was enough.

On one hand I see digital imaging a godsend as it allows many people to get into photography without wasting rolls of film.
Yet on the other hand, there are plenty of people / companies scouring the likes of flickr in hope that they can get a free image (Betty described this perfectly).
I think most of us cotton onto these people quite quickly and we soon realise that if we can make money out of photos then why not.
It them becomes double the satisfaction and I for one will not back down in the future if someone isn't prepared to 'show me the money' when it comes to my photos.
 
a1ex2001 said:
It's difficult to think of a direct comparison as there are very few industries with such a simple end product, especially one that can be a genuine bi-product of someones hoby or holiday. The web has also made millions of images easily accessible flikr is just one example of a site that is packed with comercial quality images, most industries don't have these mass markets.

Before people start flaming me I'm not saying photography has no skill or anything like that, I'm just saying that I've spent less than £500 on gear read a couple of books and a website and with a years casual shooting people have offered me money for prints. My results are not consistent and I couldn't possibly hope to make a proper living out of photography but I do occasionally produce images that are of a sufficient standard to be used comercially.

Technology dramatically alters busineses, try asking an accountant who's approaching retirment what it was like in the old days. He will still be earning good money but the number of people he employs will have dropped like a brick off a tower since the advent of computers. Other jobs have gone completely ask the millions of retired telephone operators. I appreciate these aren't people giving stuff away for free but it's a similar story of technology revolutionising an industry. If you want a freebie, I cut me neighbours hedge 2-3 times a year saving them from paying a gardner and I don't feel bad about it.

The same transition is now happening to photography the digital revolution has changed the industry forever, getting the perfect shot everytime still requires the same skill as it always did but getting a decent shot just requires a bigger memory card. My parents would never buy me a decent camera as a kid and I was always put off by the cost and dispointment that accompanied learning with film, now everyone has a camera and DSLR's are affordable for just about anyone. The world has changed and it will never change back.
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Interesting.

I can understand why younger people just starting out are happy just to see their work in print or on the web. It may or may not lead to better things in the future for them.

But you're not naive, a1ex, so I genuinely don't understand why you so strongly defend those who give their work away, to the detriment of photography as a way of earning a living - now and in the future.
 
hashcake said:
Well the potential of being the best free one makes me feel I have the potential to take photos I can charge for in the future.
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And how are you going to sell your photos if people keep giving them away free? Wayne
 
KIPAX said:
So the bullies won :)
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Lol, not at all.
If I can eventually fund this costly hobby by selling photos it'd please my good lady that I the funds no longer came from our bank balance :D
 
swanseamale47 said:
And how are you going to sell your photos if people keep giving them away free? Wayne
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If every new person to DSLR photography gives away 1 of their pictures, it's not going to cause anyone to lose their income is it?
I'm convinced that given the chance, most people would be more than happy to charge a fee for their work.
However, how about we bring to the debate the people with P&S and bridge cameras who have also given their photos away for free?
Are we going to criticise them as well or is it okay because they are not using DSLR kit?
 
hashcake said:
If every new person to DSLR photography gives away 1 of their pictures, it's not going to cause anyone to lose their income is it?
I'm convinced that given the chance, most people would be more than happy to charge a fee for their work.
However, how about we bring to the debate the people with P&S and bridge cameras who have also given their photos away for free?
Are we going to criticise them as well or is it okay because they are not using DSLR kit?
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You said
hashcake said:
Well the potential of being the best free one makes me feel I have the potential to take photos I can charge for in the future.
Click to expand...
The point I was making was? How do YOU hope to make money from your photography if photos are available for free, your images are then worthless along with everyone elses, who's going to buy something they can get for nothing?? Wayne
 
swanseamale47 said:
You said
The point I was making was? How do YOU hope to make money from your photography if photos are available for free, your images are then worthless along with everyone elses, who's going to buy something they can get for nothing?? Wayne
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As I said, I have given 1 photo away for free but I won't let it happen again if I can make money from them.
 
a1ex2001 said:
What you have just described is a free market economy based on supply and demand. Supply has gone through the roof in the photo industry so price has dropped like a stone, to the point in some circumstances the going rate is free.
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+1

That's it a nutshell. Millions of people who don't really consider themselves photographers are producing competent pictures and uploading them to the net. Many of them happy to give them to anyone who wants them. No amount of arguing and and cajoling on photography forums is going to change that. You can't put the genie back in the bottle.
 
Threads like this are great. Nothing against the original poster, it's the person that always chimes in to say "Congratulations... I bet someone will be along any minute to say giving pictures away is wrong, etc.". Not stirring are we? :)
 
Mike Hoyer said:
Threads like this are great. Nothing against the original poster, it's the person that always chimes in to say "Congratulations... I bet someone will be along any minute to say giving pictures away is wrong, etc.". Not stirring are we? :)
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No just right:D
 
I think this quote from the above article sums it up really:
"Schmap for Schmuks" . . . but will they ever learn?
 
I too am 'one of the chosen.' :lol:

I am delighted to let you know that your submitted photo has been selected for inclusion in the newly released sixth edition of our Schmap Glasgow Guide:
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I am a very amateur amateur. I was quite chuffed that someone had bothered to even look at my photos, never mind share it around the world. I don't think it is a particularly good photo myself, but what the hey? One of my colleagues at work was formerly a pro togger and thinks it was chosen because of it's "picture postcard" quality, and agrees I have taken better.
As for the payment aspect and being used and violated by opportunistic web developers....... I don't particularly mind because I don't feel any of my photos are good enough to charge money for.
Fair play to those of you talented enough to make money from your camera, but this is purely a hobby for me and will likely never be anything else. I do believe though that if on-line travel guides like schmap or whatever paid for use of photographs, then there would be a huge surge of folk like me taking paying gigs away from real photographers.

Linky to the photo
2792324119_60bd0e219d.jpg

Not particularly good IMO, I'm sure most will agree.
 
There won't be any 'real photographers' if people like you keep giving work away for free!! That is the point!
 
I take photographs for the love of it... Of course I do. I'm not good enough to seek payment! But at the same time, if someone wanted to pay me for the occasional shot, I wouldn't refuse.

To date I have earned one packet of filter coffee, for a shot I had published in a Walking-Rambling Magazine. Problem was I had to buy one of those pump action coffee filters to use the coffee! :)

Oh, and I had a 'critique' from a guy in AP, some years ago. He said there was a bit of 'shake' evident! Not surprising after a three mile hike, just to get shots of Golitha! Even the trees were shivering.

Anyhow, well done if you get that image selected. But like someone said, don't part with the rights.

John :thumbs:
 
Can we please get this in perspective here. We are talking about a photo that cannot be used for anything other than viewing on a website, and even then with difficulty. The maximum size shown is a thumbnail of 150px on the longest side, with a link to the original on flickr. There is nowhere you can buy an image that size, the smallest available on the microstock sites is double the size used on the shmap site.

I regularly recieve similar requests from shmap and others, and to be honest some I agree to some I don't. It all depends on the use. If it is something I have an interest in then I will probably agree to the it, depending on the size of the image they wish to show, if it is for something in which I have no interest at all, then I will decline.

While I do agree that photo's should not be given away for free, I think that it should apply to photos that could potentially have a use, other than highlighting an article.

Can I just ask all the people here who are saying "don't give your pictures away", how much would you charge for a 150px thumbnail?

I can see no problem with what the OP has done and provided a credit is given, which it is then well done.
 
Caledonia said:
I can see no problem with what the OP has done and provided a credit is given, which it is then well done.
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No offence - but the reason you don't see a problem is because you are an amateur - and don't rely on selling your pictures to earn a living. For those of us who do it is being made a lot harder because people give pictures away. The saddest part is people don't seem to care that they are being exploited! It's like a major high street store being flattered because the shoplifters choose to operate there!

Had a look at your website Caledonia - your pictures are great - and all very saleable - you think so too as you have them watermarked to protect theft - so PLEASE - don't give them away for free - no matter what the useage.
 
awp said:
No offence - but the reason you don't see a problem is because you are an amateur - and don't rely on selling your pictures to earn a living. For those of us who do it is being made a lot harder because people give pictures away.
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So as I asked, how much would you charge for a 150px thumbnail? :)
 
Not less than £50.00 and up to £200.00 depending on how long it was required for and what type of company was using it.
 
Not even bothed to read the replies as I know there are mixed feelings.

I let them have the one they wished to use, but I will not let them have any more...
(it was my first shot (and only shot) to be wanted by a 3rd party)
 
Simmotino said:
They, presumably, make money off the back of those photographs as well?

As such, how is that any different? :shrug:
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Well I do voluntary photography every now and again for Marie Curie Cancer Care, I wanted to do some voluntary work and figured the thing I wanted to "contribute" was my skill of photography.

So pictures I take go to local papers which publicize their fund-raising activities.
I don't do this every weekend, just every now and again.
 
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