I am not one to rant

viv1969 said:
I don't care how much expertise you may or may not have, you can't possibly know whether the child in question did or did not have Aspergers simply from the short observation in your OP.
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I would like to think that I have enough sense to spot the difference between a child with Aspergers and one that is spoilt and badly behaved....
 
archangel said:
I would like to think that I have enough sense to spot the difference between a child with Aspergers and one that is spoilt and badly behaved....
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I'm sure you would; but it's not a matter of "sense" is it?
If it were, then a medical degree would be far simpler than it is.
 
My response would have been "Fine, we'll go home and sit in the house. No TV though"
 
viv1969 said:
I'm sure you would; but it's not a matter of "sense" is it?
If it were, then a medical degree would be far simpler than it is.
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I feel like have done a medical degree.....my wife has just spent the last 7 years studying autism and aspergers with 2 different universities. I have been her trusty side kick at every study and collecting the evidence..not mention the numerous seminars and meetings that I have assisted at....and we have a child in our extended family who has Aspergers and believe me there is a noticeable difference between a badly behaved/bad patented child and one with a medical condition.
 
archangel said:
I feel like have done a medical degree.....my wife has just spent the last 7 years studying autism and aspergers with 2 different universities. I have been her trusty side kick at every study and collecting the evidence..not mention the numerous seminars and meetings that I have assisted at....and we have a child in our extended family who has Aspergers and believe me there is a noticeable difference between a badly behaved/bad patented child and one with a medical condition.
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Yes I too am familiar with Aspergers at close quarters (family).
But despite your assisting your wife, you don't have a medical degree. And I suspect even someone who does, and then specialises in the field, would not diagnose or discount over a chance (and by your own admission, annoying) meeting a la OP.
 
True.a professional medical person would not judge on an off chance meeting and I apologise if I sound arrogant.
 
My children were disciplined, my daughter was a nightmare (she's ok now she's 32), my son was very easy, never played up (he's 26 now) so never really needed to be disciplined, always a joy to take anywhere (and I'm not being a prejudiced parent here, he just was). Now his wife is pregnant and I'm going to be a Grandad I'm really concerned that if his child is like my daughter was I dont know how I'm going to resolve the situation if we are looking after the child and he/she starts to act up. Clearly beating it to within an inch of its life (as we did with daughter, apparently :) ) isnt going to be acceptable and as I'm quick to temper (far too quick really) I'm really concerned, maybe we'll just decline being asked to have it for the weekend as other have said children really do need a framework of acceptable behaviour and not just left to annoy the daylights out of everyone else.
 
DorsetDude said:
Why do people always trot out that line as if its not true? Did it do us harm then being disciplined?
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Nope you missed the point I was being sincere,
the wink was for the non-believers ;)
 
archangel said:
This is what happens when there is no discipline.......


In an earlier post aspergers was mentioned....my wife is a professional in the field of aspergers and through this I have gained knowledge of the syndrome and we have a family member who has it and believe me there was no syndrome present today but lack of discipline both with the kids and parents
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Thing is regardless of what syndrome they have - even those experiencing a 'syndrome' whether that's aspergers , ADHD or whatever need to learn to behave in a socially acceptable way if they are going to get on in life. Unless you are so disabled that you spend your left in a special unit no one can go through life expecting the world to make accomodations for them.

In the case at hand if they did have a behavioural syndrome this might inform what technique the parents use to deal with the behaviour (e.g punishment might not be appropriate if the child doesn't comprehend that they were' wrong') but it wouldn't suggest just acquiesing in , or accepting the behavior as just one of those things - if you do the child grows up with a sense of entitlement and a belief it can do what the hell it likes because theres always an excuse

In a previous role a few years back , I had for a time a team member who had ADHD, and who basically seem'd to have learnt that he could use it as an excuse for any unaceptable behaviour in order to avoid punishment or any negative consequences - late for work , oh i have ADHD, work not done, oh i have ADHD , hour long tea break , oh i have ADHD and so forth - this was very wearing and not really acceptable - especially as many of the behaviours have **** all to do with the syndrome.

When he trapped a secretary in the stationary cupboard , pinned her to the wall, and felt her breasts enough was enough - "ohh I didnt realise it was wrong, I have , etc..." " after taking legal advice I let him go - behaving like that is not in my opinion a consequence of his disability, but even if it was its not something you can tolerate in the work place - I think this may have been the first time in his life that the excuse hadn't worked.

I can't help feeling that he'd have been better served in life if he'd learnt much earlier that having a "syndrome" is not an excuse for going through life with a narcisistic focus
 
big soft moose said:
Thing is regardless of what syndrome they have - even those experiencing a 'syndrome' whether that's aspergers , ADHD or whatever need to learn to behave in a socially acceptable way if they are going to get on in life. Unless you are so disabled that you spend your left in a special unit no one can go through life expecting the world to make accomodations for them.
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:clap:

(2 'm's in accommodation Pete)


... is not an excuse for going through life with a narcisistic focus
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3 's's in narcissistic Pete. Or is it 2 'c's?

;)
 
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Cobra said:
And as the saying goes, it never did us any harm ;)
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I think there is a line between discipline and child abuse. Certainly some of the things that happened to me might horrify others but I was an unruly child. Sweets and fizzy drinks made that behaviour worse (and to still extent still does which is why I try and limit my intake massively). Compare me to my primary school friends and I was one of six in our year group who passed their 11+ and later went on to university to study more traditional degrees.
 
lol - something like that

Although you are slipping - I half expected you to point out that there arent actually any fs in "what i'm thinking right now" :lol:
 
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omens said:
I think there is a line between discipline and child abuse. Certainly some of the things that happened to me might horrify others but I was an unruly child. Sweets and fizzy drinks made that behaviour worse (and to still extent still does which is why I try and limit my intake massively). Compare me to my primary school friends and I was one of six in our year group who passed their 11+ and later went on to university to study more traditional degrees.
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Oh absolutely, there is a fine line and responsible parents know where that is.

And I feel your pain, my son was the same, with just about everything from E numbers to bread to things you
wouldn't even imagine would raise IGE's!
A total no hoper at school TBH.
But he too went on to study at Uni,, and now has a very responsible job :thumbs:
 
I am very cynical about the number of people/children who actually have conditions/disorders such as Aspergers, ADHD, ADD or anything else, because I have witnessed at close hand the behavioural problems of young relatives, and their parent's response. It is almost as if SOME parents want their children to be different/special, or maybe just need to find an excuse for their children's behaviour rather than admit that they are the problem, that their parenting skills are the cause of the problem.
Going back to the behaviour of relative's children, the parents are sometimes so immersed with their perceived "angel child", that they refuse to believe their child can do any wrong. This of course means that excuses have to be made for the little brat, or in a worst case scenario, another adult will be blamed for starting the child off.
In one case, which involves a family with four children, ALL of the children have been tested for a variety of behavioural problems, when in my opinion it is the lack of discipline/care/parenting skills exhibited by both parents which is to blame.
 
Raptor Mike said:
So when you're kids are hitting each other, or ripping up a book, drawing on the walls...?
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hitting each other yeah just leave them to it, destroying things is a different matter unless its theirs then tough. If they want to break their own property they can, it won't get replaced. However, they stopped that very quickly ;)
 
andy700 said:
I am very cynical about the number of people/children who actually have conditions/disorders such as Aspergers, ADHD, ADD or anything else, because I have witnessed at close hand the behavioural problems of young relatives, and their parent's response. It is almost as if SOME parents want their children to be different/special, or maybe just need to find an excuse for their children's behaviour rather than admit that they are the problem, that their parenting skills are the cause of the problem.
Going back to the behaviour of relative's children, the parents are sometimes so immersed with their perceived "angel child", that they refuse to believe their child can do any wrong. This of course means that excuses have to be made for the little brat, or in a worst case scenario, another adult will be blamed for starting the child off.
In one case, which involves a family with four children, ALL of the children have been tested for a variety of behavioural problems, when in my opinion it is the lack of discipline/care/parenting skills exhibited by both parents which is to blame.
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I totally agree with you. As I mentioned before my wife has studied Aspergers and Autism spectrum for the last 7 years. Her findings show that although there is a number of kids with said syndromes, they only actually represent less than 14% within the behavioral cross section. The other 86% of behaviour related referrals are a mixed result of bad parenting, low socio economic areas and drug/alcohol abuse. The other interesting data collected shows that mostly badly behaved kids, that is kids that are non spectrum(bad behavior), came from families that had either long term employment or from the upper middle class section of families.

I stress that this is a cross section of referrals from educational and medical practitioners and I am only referencing information.

The reality is that all kids and adults alike should maintain boundaries for respectable and acceptable behaviour.
 
Cobra said:
And as the saying goes, it never did us any harm ;)
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You sure? ... I think all of us older men here can refer to Charlotte's point of view thread, specifically aggression in men. In a mild easy going on yourself kinda way guys ... and not forgetting it affects women as well of course.

Julie1979 said:
My response would have been "Fine, we'll go home and sit in the house. No TV though"
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:clap:
Yep, dead easy, no teaching them violence is the answer to getting your way.
 
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Forbiddenbiker said:
You sure? ... I think all of us older men here can refer to Charlotte's point of view thread, specifically aggression in men.
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You sure that's due to children having been disciplined though? And not any one of a myriad of other factors?
 
Being disciplined didn't teach me that violence was the answer - it taught me when violence is not appropriate (e.g when a kid in your tutor group tells you that you are a smelly no nothing loser who'll never get a girlfreind - stabbing him in the chest with your biro is not an appropriate response. Six of the best for both parties is however an appropriate response to the outbreak of a small riot in tutor period ).

These days we'd probably have to sit down an explain why our actions were hurtful or some such rubbish and maybe write a poem, conduct some role play and have group hug - which wouldn't have persuaded me that stabbing the school bully with your biro isn't a good idea - and would probably have led to me continuing to solve problems with thoughtless violence until i got expelled or jailed.

That said I do also belive that thee is a lot of crap talked about agression / violence not being the answer - its cetainly not the answer to everything , but there is equally a degree of empircal evidence that turning the other cheek and forgiving your enemies gets you crucified :lol:
 
don't know if i,m qualified or not ,but 6 kids ,10 grandkids ,2 great grandkids does give you a insight in to various methods and treatments ,i have rarely had to administer a smack to any of them fewer than 3 times in a lifetime in all probability ,i,m normally quite jovial in reality but ALL of mine and there own children know that when i raise my voice above the normal level they have pushed there luck to far ,and its never yet failed to bring them into line ,i suppose being rather large helps .its a case of they all know from a early age whats acceptable .
these days sadly you now have children growing up that have never had a responsible adult male to say enough is enough ,don't know what the answer is really but its not going to go away from what i see when out .
 
Forbiddenbiker said:
You sure? ... I think all of us older men here can refer to Charlotte's point of view thread, specifically aggression in men. In a mild easy going on yourself kinda way guys ... and not forgetting it affects women as well of course.
.
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I'm not even going to begin to analyze that post / thread ;)
I'm just talking about, NO! means NO!
a slap across the arse when overstepping boundaries.
Not throwing a tantrum in the middle of the store, when not allowed the latest
games console / DVD . And screaming till the parents give in.
That would have gained me another smacked arse,
but of course I knew that and wouldn't have done it in the first place.


the black fox said:
don't know if i,m qualified or not ,but 6 kids ,10 grandkids ,2 great grandkids does give you a insight in to various methods and treatments ,i have rarely had to administer a smack to any of them fewer than 3 times in a lifetime in all probability ,i,m normally quite jovial in reality but ALL of mine and there own children know that when i raise my voice above the normal level they have pushed there luck to far ,and its never yet failed to bring them into line ,i suppose being rather large helps .its a case of they all know from a early age whats acceptable .
these days sadly you now have children growing up that have never had a responsible adult male to say enough is enough ,don't know what the answer is really but its not going to go away from what i see when out .
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Excellent post.
 
Cobra said:
I'm not even going to begin to analyze that post / thread ;)
I'm just talking about, NO! means NO!
a slap across the arse when overstepping boundaries.
Not throwing a tantrum in the middle of the store, when not allowed the latest
games console / DVD . And screaming till the parents give in.
That would have gained me another smacked arse,
but of course I knew that and wouldn't have done it in the first place.
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Yeah same for me, it was the smacked arse threat that stopped me doing something I thought might earn another smack... not instead, not doing it because I knew why it was wrong.

Giving kids a smack IS an adult tantrum. ;)
 
Forbiddenbiker said:
Giving kids a smack IS an adult tantrum. ;)
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I guess for some irresponsible adults, it may well have been.
Fortunately, the government (and the bleeding hearts) were there to save us from ourselves and eternal damnation,
by making it illegal :rolleyes:
 
Forbiddenbiker said:
Yeah same for me, it was the smacked arse threat that stopped me doing something I thought might earn another smack... not instead, not doing it because I knew why it was wrong.

Giving kids a smack IS an adult tantrum. ;)
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So how are you supposed to discipline kids :thinking:
Send them to their rooms to play on the games consuls/watch TV......... getting them out of their rooms is a bigger problem
If we deprive them of things that seems to be wrong too.

As a kid I knew right from wrong and if I did something wrong accepted the punishment, didn't always stop me doing it though ;)
My kids were the same, but today it seems we have to ignore bad behaviour and praise the good, how the hell does that work.
 
Naughty step......I think not......A good tight smack sorted my kids....they have grown up into two adults which I am extremely proud of
 
Actually my own little mini rant, if you don't mind Archie ( :D)
Someone I am distantly related to, 21 year old, single mum, just over a year old sprog.
Going around a "large food outlet"
The kid grabs two cadbury's cream eggs, and eats them on the way round the store.

What does she do? Discipline the child? ( a stern No! and a light tap on the back of the hand would do it)
and put them back? No!

She post about it on face book with a "LOL cheeky monkey"
As to whether she paid for them at the till I have no idea,
but I have my own theory on that ;)
 
Yeah well, it goes like this, you guys are good and smart enough to put up with this loud mouthed t*** often enough and now I see you're big enough to listen...

So id guess based on how you treat this me .....You'd all be just as good at parenting doing it without physical chastisement. :D ha.

Don't you think?


Gremlin said:
...

As a kid I knew right from wrong and if I did something wrong accepted the punishment, didn't always stop me doing it though ;)
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So that 'punishment' didn't work in the long run then ... ;)

...are you still naughty ...? ;
 
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