I am all for diversity but........

[Byker28i]

I could be wrong of course, but I suspect all of those here supporting the influx of migrant workers, while a significant number of UK citizens remain unemployed, are in full-time employment. Your 'rose tinted' glasses might take on a whole new shade if you were one of the unemployed.

Been there, done that last year, now working for 3/5ths the salary I was but much happier having a job than being on the dole.

...so having seen programs like 'Benefit Street', and others showing the blatant abuse of our benefits system, my conscience would be clear.

You're confusing TV with real life. Of course it looks terrible, that's the idea of the programme. There were hundreds of hours of footage to allow them to select the juiciest bits with the occaisional prod in the right direction for them.

Rather than rose tinted glasses, perhaps blinkers?

Just to put this into perspective, this is £55m. 650 MP's cost over £100m in expenses alone every year. We spend 0.7% of GDP on foreign aid (about £11.5billion). Lets not even look at the billions wasted by MOD procurement.

You're barking up the wrong tree to save money, but it's far easier to put the blame on foreign workers stealing our jobs, or work shy benefit cheats, than sort out the real issues. And then UKIP play on this, gets the popular vote because people are too lazy to look at the real, detailed issues .

Now as it's seen as vote winning the other parties will jump on the bandwagon and nothing will actually change

 

[Steve Smith]

^^ What he said.


Steve.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

How can this subject not be political?

If you want a feeding frenzy with the me too vote then go to the Daily Mail forums.

There are replies to many comments here that could divide opinions or reinforce what are basic human rights.

Before reunification the then West German federal government dealt with a lower population with benefits designed to get germans to have more children.

Sorry but to my way of thinking the subject is a massove political football.

The UK is not 'poor' - it's a member of the G7 group of the wealthiest countries on the planet and the discussion about slamming the poorest in the country is reprehensible. The subject should be a realignment of wealth to deal with a growing disparity between the haves, the have nots and the have sod all

There but for the grace of God etc

Steve

 

[DaveS2]

You're confusing TV with real life. Of course it looks terrible, that's the idea of the programme. There were hundreds of hours of footage to allow them to select the juiciest bits with the occaisional prod in the right direction for them.

Rather than rose tinted glasses, perhaps blinkers

Of course they choose the 'juicy bits' that's what the media do, but I can't believe that you and others are naive enough to believe that there isn't wide spread abuse of the benefit system, and that there aren't migrant workers filling places that could otherwise been filled by UK citizens.

I have given you a factual example of this, and you still don't believe that is the case. Its not me that wearing the 'blinkers' here.

Nowhere have I laid the blame at the door of the migrant worker, but here again you seem oblivious to what I said, so I will try again. It is the companies in the UK that give priority to migrant workers, as opposed to offering them on the UK job market.This is what causes anger among the unemployed, struggling to pay their 'bills', and drives them towards UKIP.

Again as I said earlier, the company where my son works, has a workforce comprising over 95% of migrant workers from Eastern Europe. The company actively recruiting recruiting primarily in Poland, but also Lithuania.

This is not hard grafting agricultural work, but simple production line and end product packing work. I am confident that if all of the migrant workers up and left, the company could very quickly fill the positions from the ranks of local unemployed UK citizens.

Successive governments have allowed many of problems, concerning the people of this country to go unchecked for years, and now they are beginning to 'reap what they have sown', with Mr Farage and his Merry Men, laughing all the way to the Poll Booths.

However, like most all discussions in this section of the forum, this one is going around in never ending circles, without any form of consensus agreement ever being reached.

We all as human beings have differing views on things, and politics and religion should really be 'no-go' areas on a forum, because very few of us are likely to agree. That said, like a fool, I allowed myself to get involved in these contentious issues, when in reality, at my age, I've seen enough of life to know better.

The irony of this is, that I co-own and fund a forum, which has been running for over five years. The forum rules state that the discussion of Politics, Religion are not permitted on the 'Board', and I wrote the rules.

The 'bottom line' is that in the entire 5 years of the forum's existence, there has not been a single disagreement, nor member moderated, or banned.

I have to say, that I am a member of two other photography forums, both of which are more like a photography forum than the debating society that is TP. Yep, I know, I am as guilty as the rest of you, and I was warned before I came here, that TP was a particularly contentious forum, so I have no excuse.

So with that, and with no agreement in sight, in any 'camp', I will say that I respect your views, and trust that you will reciprocate.

I'm going back to my photography, and leave you guys to carry on disagreeing with each other.

Dave

 

[nilagin]

No but you've implied it. Maybe you could explain how that sort if skilled role (degree + several years training) is replaced as easily as you make out.


The millions you talk about is what % of our total benefit bill? It's a tiny amount in the scale of things

No implications or assumptions from me I'm afraid. If you can find anything as such in my previous posts, please kindly point them out. I'll make it easier for you, here's all my previous posts.

Shouldn't be allowed and don't see how it can be allowed to be claimed to be honest. It's wrong on so many levels.

Just because UK citizens are financially responsible for the child, that still doesn't mean it's ethically right. Child benefit for UK residing children gets spent in this country and goes back into the UK economy, not that of another country.

As a UK Tax and NI payer, my contributions to the economy and the child benefit received for my kids residing in the UK, gets spent in the UK so the money goes towards our economy. If someone from another country is working here and claiming child benefit for children residing in another country, then it's that country that gets the "economy boost" not ours.

But it's the UK paying the benefits, not the migrants home country. The home country are on to a winner, each person that comes here to work is one less unemployed they have to worry about.

The fact they are working over here is more likely to leave a position open for someone in their home country, thus reducing unemployment.

But as you brought up the skilled/unskilled factor, ask yourself this, if an immigrant is working in a job over here that requires a degree and several years training or an unskilled job, who is more likely to come here on there own, and have the child benefit paid to their family back home, or bring their family with them as they will have a better paid job. Not sure why you'd think countries would have a shortage of skilled workers to fill jobs left vacant because a fellow countryman has taken a job over here.
There is still poverty in this country, evident by food banks in some areas, £55M would be better spent here, let other countries sort themselves out.

 

[boyfalldown]

No implications or assumptions from me I'm afraid. If you can find anything as such in my previous posts, please kindly point them out. I'll make it easier for you, here's all my previous posts.






But as you brought up the skilled/unskilled factor, ask yourself this, if an immigrant is working in a job over here that requires a degree and several years training or an unskilled job, who is more likely to come here on there own, and have the child benefit paid to their family back home, or bring their family with them as they will have a better paid job. Not sure why you'd think countries would have a shortage of skilled workers to fill jobs left vacant because a fellow countryman has taken a job over here.
There is still poverty in this country, evident by food banks in some areas, £55M would be better spent here, let other countries sort themselves out.

mmm that one above - he bit about 'who's more likely............'. I'm not sure why poverty comes into it. My assertion is simple, if you pay UK taxes and NI, then you have the right to the privileges associated with that.

or this one

But it's the UK paying the benefits, not the migrants home country. The home country are on to a winner, each person that comes here to work is one less unemployed they have to worry about.

that as I said earlier you assume, with no evidence at all that one person migrating will automatically create one less person on the home countries unemployment role, either because they were unemployed initially, or their old job can be instantly filled. Anyway as Steve so ably put it I'm guessing there is no way we'll agree on this. Free movement of peoples works all ways, and is no bad thing

 

[nilagin]

mmm that one above - he bit about 'who's more likely............'. I'm not sure why poverty comes into it. My assertion is simple, if you pay UK taxes and NI, then you have the right to the privileges associated with that.

or this one




that as I said earlier you assume, with no evidence at all that one person migrating will automatically create one less person on the home countries unemployment role, either because they were unemployed initially, or their old job can be instantly filled. Anyway as Steve so ably put it I'm guessing there is no way we'll agree on this. Free movement of peoples works all ways, and is no bad thing

The first one you've quoted above I've only just written, nice try but no banana for you, and the second one still has no assumptions or implications made to skill base.
You don't hear voices in your head, as well as imagine seeing something written that's not there do you?

 

[boyfalldown]

You don't hear voices in your head, as well as imagine seeing something written that's not there do you?

Just the ones that tell me I shouldn't listen to people who come out with nonsense anyway as it's not an assumption can you show me a reference to support it?

 

[nilagin]

Just the ones that tell me I shouldn't listen to people who come out with nonsense anyway as it's not an assumption can you show me a reference to support it?

No, just as you can't to disprove it.

 

[boyfalldown]

No, just as you can't to disprove it.

I can't, you're right. But as you can't provide one it's an assumption

 

[viv1969]

Of course, a simple solution would be to abolish child benefit altogether.

 

[Steve Smith]

A solution to a problem which doesn't exist.


Steve.

 

[dejongj]

Of course, a simple solution would be to abolish child benefit altogether.

I like that one. Simple to implement as well. Just stop it in twelve months from now, and continue it in accordance with current rules which allows for it to be phased out fully in the next 17 years. Simple.

 

[Gremlin]

Of course, a simple solution would be to abolish child benefit altogether.

I like that one. Simple to implement as well. Just stop it in twelve months from now, and continue it in accordance with current rules which allows for it to be phased out fully in the next 17 years. Simple.

Sounds good

 

[viv1969]

No phasing.
End it...now.

 

[Byker28i]

O

However, like most all discussions in this section of the forum, this one is going around in never ending circles, without any form of consensus agreement ever being reached.

We all as human beings have differing views on things, and politics and religion should really be 'no-go' areas on a forum, because very few of us are likely to agree. That said, like a fool, I allowed myself to get involved in these contentious issues, when in reality, at my age, I've seen enough of life to know better.

The irony of this is, that I co-own and fund a forum, which has been running for over five years. The forum rules state that the discussion of Politics, Religion are not permitted on the 'Board', and I wrote the rules.

Your forum, your rules, so you can do what you like. However, this forum allows discussion and provided it's kept within reasonable terms, there's no reason why these subjects cannot be discussed. It's how discussion works. You're not going to change people's opinions perhaps, but you may give them another view to consider.

However, you don't seem to be able to accept this and expect your opinions to be acted as correct, possibly because of your forum and your forum rules expectations. Luckily tp isn't like that.

To be honest you keep making a point that sounds like "I'm not racist but,,,". Foreign workers aren't an issue, not in agriculture, banking, manufacturing, any industry. It's only an issue to those who think they can make political capital from it and those narrow minded to fall for this.

The original post was about £55million going abroad, a tiny fraction of GDP, about a millionth of one percent, you keep going on about foreign workers taking uk jobs, yet seen the figures for how many there are? Not as many as you're led to believe, plus if they are paying tax then good luck to them.

Want to make a change? Stop buying from companies that flout the uk tax rules and pay sod all, so that's Apple, Amazon, Starbucks etc. Challenge those companies to pay tax fairly, challenge the waste within govt spending. Work out where the real money is being wasted, or not generated, then do something, not moan about foreign workers taking British jobs, because that's not the real issue.

 

[Cobra]

The irony of this is, that I co-own and fund a forum, which has been running for over five years. The forum rules state that the discussion of Politics, Religion are not permitted on the 'Board', and I wrote the rules.

The 'bottom line' is that in the entire 5 years of the forum's existence, there has not been a single disagreement, nor member moderated, or banned.

Religion and politics used to be a taboo subject, here at TP towers,
However that rule was relaxed, several months back.

I don't actually remember a member being banned or moderated in anyway, shape, or form,
over those subjects.

It's the inability of some people to act like adults, that result in mod intervention,
in some of the most unlikely places, or over the most unlikely subjects.

 

[viv1969]

Wrong post

 

[Gremlin]

Not really a lot of point Ruth, except that child allowance stops when the child leaves full time education or reaches the age of 18 except in certain circumstances
so I suppose those already receiving it would be allowed to keep it under present rules

 

[DaveS2]

However, you don't seem to be able to accept this and expect your opinions to be acted as correct

That is your opinion, and I respect this, even though in this case, your interpretation is way off-track, but I'll leave it there as at my age, life is far too short to argue.

Cobra, I will say that you guys (Admin/Mods) do have a high tolerance level, as I have seen posts here that have been quite vitriolic, and personal, which have gone un-moderated. Something that I haven't seen on the other two UK based photography forums that I belong to, nor astro-imaging forums. However, to quote 'Byker' "your forum, your rules", and if I couldn't accept this, then I wouldn't be here.

It is unfortunate, given some of the expertise that resides here, among a lot of genuinely nice people, that outside of TP, it has a reputation for being a bit of a 'Bear Pit'.

Dave

 

[dejongj]

No phasing.
End it...now.

I have some sympathy for people who were let to believe, and subsequently budgeted for getting child benefit...As such I have a more moderate stance, and an implementation like this can reasonable expect little opposition as it fair...

 

[Cobra]

Cobra, I will say that you guys (Admin/Mods) do have a high tolerance level, as I have seen posts here that have been quite vitriolic, and personal, which have gone un-moderated. Something that I haven't seen on the other two UK based photography forums that I belong to, nor astro-imaging forums. However, to quote 'Byker' "your forum, your rules", and if I couldn't accept this, then I wouldn't be here.

It is unfortunate, given some of the expertise that resides here, among a lot of genuinely nice people, that outside of TP, it has a reputation for being a bit of a 'Bear Pit'.

Dave

The problem is, Dave, half the time we are damned if we do, damned if we don't.
We also get quite a few complaints that we moderate too severely.
We try and take a middle ground.
If you think that a post is vitriolic, and personal, whether or not, its aimed at you,
Please feel free to hit the report button.
Its totally anonymous.
Well obviously, the staff know "who did" but no one else ever does.

We can't possibly read every single post or thread.
And do rely on people pointing us in the direction of something we may have missed

 

[simon ess]

It is unfortunate, given some of the expertise that resides here, among a lot of genuinely nice people, that outside of TP, it has a reputation for being a bit of a 'Bear Pit'.

Dave

Really? I mean, really?

A bear pit?

Grrrrrrrr....

Isn't life too short to join a forum in which you are critical of the moderation and which has a reputation for being a bear pit?

Your observation about the expertise and the nice people on here is correct though.

 

[DaveS2]

I'll not argue with that Cobra, it is a difficult balancing, and yes, you can be 'damned if you do, and damned if you don't'. As the saying goes, "you can please most of the people most of time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time", especially on a large forum like this, where you will get a diverse mix of people. Of course it is unreasonable to expect you guys to read every post, and as such, posts that may well have been moderated, have 'slipped through the net'.

I have not had any vitriolic or personal attacks made against me, but I have seen them made against others here, few and far between yes, but never the less they happened, and yes they did go un-moderated.

Simon, yes a 'Bear Pit'.

Not my description, but that of other photographers that have looked in through the 'shop window' here, or had first-hand experience. It was not I that labelled TP with this reputation, but I was warned that it existed before coming here.

Critical of the moderation . My comment was that I considered the moderators here to have a high tolerance level, compared to other forums. That is an observation, not a criticism.

Dave

 

[Yv]

I'll not argue with that Cobra, it is a difficult balancing, and yes, you can be 'damned if you do, and damned if you don't'. As the saying goes, "you can please most of the people most of time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time", especially on a large forum like this, where you will get a diverse mix of people. Of course it is unreasonable to expect you guys to read every post, and as such, posts that may well have been moderated, have 'slipped through the net'.

I have not had any vitriolic or personal attacks made against me, but I have seen them made against others here, few and far between yes, but never the less they happened, and yes they did go un-moderated.

Simon, yes a 'Bear Pit'.

Not my description, but that of other photographers that have looked in through the 'shop window' here, or had first-hand experience. It was not I that labelled TP with this reputation, but I was warned that it existed before coming here.

Critical of the moderation . My comment was that I considered the moderators here to have a high tolerance level, compared to other forums. That is an observation, not a criticism.

Dave

You should see the state of the punchbag in the staffroom....

 

[Cobra]

Critical of the moderation . My comment was that I considered the moderators here to have a high tolerance level, compared to other forums. That is an observation, not a criticism. Dave

To be fair, I too only saw it as an observation, nothing more.

, but I have seen them made against others here, few and far between yes, but never the less they happened, and yes they did go un-moderated.

As before, please, and that's everyone, don't be shy in hitting that report button.

 

[DaveS2]

You should see the state of the punchbag in the staffroom....

Dave

 

[Cobra]

You should see the state of the punchbag in the staffroom....

I was going to refer to the holes in the wall made by us banging our heads against it

 

[mid_gen]

Plenty of Brits living here in Germany claiming a variety of benefits. EU membership isn't a one way deal.

 

[DaveS2]

To be fair, I too only saw it as an observation, nothing more.

I never thought that you didn't Cobra, but its obvious that Simon did.

It often the misinterpretation of a comment, that leads to a contentious situation.

Dave

 

[simon ess]

Hey, you say it wasn't a criticism - I'm happy to believe you.

I hope you can at least understand how I may have mis-interpreted you.

I have seen posts here that have been quite vitriolic, and personal, which have gone un-moderated. Something that I haven't seen on the other two UK based photography forums that I belong to, nor astro-imaging forums.
Dave

There is absolutely no need for a "contentious situation" with good communication.

 

[DaveS2]

A misinterpretation it was indeed, and thank you for the redress.

We are all human beings, and as such often see things very differently to others. I guess life would be very boring if we didn't.

Water under the bridge Simon.

Regards

Dave

 

[Cobra]

Hey, you say it wasn't a criticism - I'm happy to believe you.

I hope you can at least understand how I may have mis-interpreted you.
There is absolutely no need for a "contentious situation" with good communication.

A misinterpretation it was indeed, and thank you for the redress.
We are all human beings, and as such often see things very differently to others. I guess life would be very boring if we didn't.
Water under the bridge Simon.
Regards
Dave

Now if you two could just have a word with a few dozen names I can supply
Maybe TP can regain its (perceived by some,) lost friendly status

 

[Steve Smith]

but I can't believe that you and others are naive enough to believe that there isn't wide spread abuse of the benefit system

Try looking for actual facts. Less than 1% of benefits paid are received fraudulently.

http://www.cas.org.uk/features/myth-busting-real-figures-benefit-fraud




Steve.

 

[Byker28i]

You know, I belong to other photography forums and I've never see tp described as anything other than a good resource for uk photographers, certainly never a 'bear pit'. Google seems to back this up also, strangely enough with only posts from Dave showing on TP.

There are disagreements, obviously. It's a community with people with differing opinions, which is fine provided it stays within the published rules. Trouble is some people don't read them.
The mods do a great job on here and have the balance just about right, mind you I think their work is a little less since a couple of people no longer post.

 

[archangel]

The mods do a great job on here and have the balance just about right, mind you I think their work is a little less since a couple of people no longer post.

No longer post or were they disappeared

I agree this is a great forum with general respect for each other and the mods do a good job

 

[Byker28i]

Well, there's a rumour TP towers has a new patio...

 

[Byker28i]

Back the the original post, today the govt are giving £168million to local councils for pothole repairs, that's 3 times the amount the op was complaining about, which again puts that amount into perspective.

 

[archangel]

Back the the original post, today the govt are giving £168million to local councils for pothole repairs, that's 3 times the amount the op was complaining about, which again puts that amount into perspective.

I wasn't complaining I was just saying that it beggars belief.....and at least using money to fill pot holes is useful and it is helping our infrastructure.....

 

[Cobra]

You know, I belong to other photography forums and I've never see tp described as anything other than a good resource for uk photographers, certainly never a 'bear pit'.

We've had a few complaints and derogatory remarks made back to the staff recently along those lines.
But its always people that have been very disgruntled about "modding" decisions

There are disagreements, obviously. It's a community with people with differing opinions, which is fine provided it stays within the published rules. Trouble is some people don't read them.
The mods do a great job on here and have the balance just about right, mind you I think their work is a little less since a couple of people no longer post.

No longer post or were they disappeared
I agree this is a great forum with general respect for each other and the mods do a good job

We have been doing a bit of spring cleaning over the last couple of months

And thank you both for the kind words

Well, there's a rumour TP towers has a new patio...

Also that 20 cubic meters of lime was a good investment