Hybrid cars

wuyanxu said:
Out of interest, which dealership is that?
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It was my local Honda showroom in Canterbury. I should add though that I've been in touch with 2 other Honda dealers (trying to chase down an elusive spec) and my local one seems the exception rather than the norm :(
 
The number of cars parked on the road outside with no access to a garage must be quite significant - look at the typical city street

also many people just fill their garage with junk with no room for a car

Surely this will limit the number of hybrid cars sold that need a garage charging point
 
stickytape said:
I bought a new (used) car about 3 months ago - a 2010 Vauxhall Astra J 2 litre diesel automatic. I was fully aware of the current electric and hybrid cars on the market, but for me, they don't deliver enough return to warrant the outlay. I do not purchase cars on finance or lease, as I can't seem to get my head around it. This car cost me under 4K, and I am confident it will happily last at least three years in my ownership before I get a strong itch to change. Even then, it will still be worth maybe 2k or so. I tend to get around abouts 48mpg consumption (due to a lot of A roads on my daily route).

Perhaps I am just naive, but this appears to be a more sensible route at the moment until hybrids/electrics truly do flourish and because affordable and excellent in the same way a modern Ddiesel engine is (primarily in the BMW and Mercedes range)

Sure my "new" car is no masaerati.. but it's quite enjoyable to drive, sports good acelation and is certainly good enough for a "tide over"

In my very humble opinion.
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As the OP is intending to drive into London he would need a more recent diesel to avoid the newly proposed extra congestion charge.
 
BillN_33 said:
The number of cars parked on the road outside with no access to a garage must be quite significant - look at the typical city street

also many people just fill their garage with junk with no room for a car

Surely this will limit the number of hybrid cars sold that need a garage charging point
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There's a recent idea to set up a system like Airbnb, where people will be able to rent out their charge points whilst they are not using them
 
nilagin said:
There's a recent idea to set up a system like Airbnb, where people will be able to rent out their charge points whilst they are not using them
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I would think that 75% of the cars in the UK are now parked outside - cannot see many people driving to a charging point leaving it there then getting back home with the same journey to pick the car up
 
BillN_33 said:
I would think that 75% of the cars in the UK are now parked outside - cannot see many people driving to a charging point leaving it there then getting back home with the same journey to pick the car up
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It's only an initial idea to expand the number of existing charge points until more points become available. There is a house up the road from me, the owner has a Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV and a BMW i8 which they recharge overnight, their charge points aren't used during the day, it would make sense to rent out the charge points during the day, it would pay for the electricity they used to charge their own vehicles and also make a tidy profit.
 
JonathanRyan said:
Hybrids don't need a charging point. PHEVs do ;)

I think it's one of the reasons PHEVs aren't that common.
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Thanks Jonathan

but the future seems to be electric - would be hopeless in the street that I live in, in the UK which has maybe 30 cars - all parked on the road side no garages
 
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In an ideal world, there would be enough plug-in points on most streets for people in that situation to use. Just needs someone to pay for the installation...
 
PHEVs are Hybrids so not essential to plug in but a bit of a waste if you can't. Obviously electric cars need a plug which I'll never be able to have probably.

I think the real solution will be charging times, they need to get it down to minutes really so that it's no more inconvenient than petrol and diesel and also caters for people without driveways. But I think that will be quite some time away.

Or they may come up with some portable charger which you charge in your house then stick in the boot overnight charging. I guess battery size and technology will have a long way to go for that also.
 
gman said:
I think the real solution will be charging times, they need to get it down to minutes really so that it's no more inconvenient than petrol and diesel and also caters for people without driveways. But I think that will be quite some time away.
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Quick charge systems are capable of 80% charge in 20-30 minutes. That should be good for another 100 miles.
 
nilagin said:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-38147478

http://www.autonews.com/article/20161003/OEM06/310039948/wireless-charging-unleashed
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Is that 400 being built in the uk or across Europe? Surely it must be the UK as I think there's about 8,500 petrol stations here so there's a fair number to aim for but a step in the right direction nonetheless.

Just read about the quick charge, perhaps 5-10 minutes isn't far away after all!

I've pretty much decided to get a 330e next year as it's a no brainer for business leasing. It's under the 130g/km so the full 100% lease cost can be reclaimed, employers nic is far less, my bik tax is massively less with over £10k tax saving over 3 years and I'll be able to charge during the day so all my commuting will be free which will save a lot in fuel costs.
 
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gman said:
Is that 400 being built in the uk or across Europe? Surely it must be the UK as I think there's about 8,500 petrol stations here so there's a fair number to aim for but a step in the right direction nonetheless.
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No that is across Europe. Car manufacturers don't finance petrol stations, but they are just helping set up an infrastructure. Car parks and road side parking spaces will likely get charging points.
 
How many of that do you reckon will come to the UK?
 
gman said:
How many of that do you reckon will come to the UK?
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Well, depending how you count them, there are about 50 countries in Europe. So.....8? We're a big country compared to, say the Vatican, so let's double it and say 16. Which is about half the number of Boroughs in London. Sorry Cardiff, your nearest charging station is a 300 mile round trip away. And your range is..........
 
I think you are all thinking about this the wrong way. For EV, slow charging where you should be charging 90% of the time, and scheduled overnight or during noon, not peak time. These daily charging is called local charging, should not use fast chargers.

Only when going on long trips you should use the fast charger network, reason is two fold: preserve battery health and less crowded fast chargers. On long trips, you will really need these, you won't want to see locals just topping up their EV taking half hour for that last few %.



Another thing people got to remember is the magic 80%. Any battery can only fast charge to 80%, after that the charging speed slows down, over 90% it's not even worth using fast chargers. So, as I've posted in another thread:
I'd personally estimate EV range by taking their quoted range, take away 20% because you want to avoid operate on battery upper and lower limits, then take away another 20% for extreme driving conditions. That gives you realistically how far you can reliably go. Then take away another 10% is how far you can reliably drive between quick charges, because batteries can only quickly charged up to 80%, above this percentage it slows down and not worth waiting. So for me, 200+ miles range EV is tipping point, it comfortably allows ~2 hours of motorway driving between quick charges, allowing long distance travel.



While on the subject of thinking differently for EV, people also often forget the cost savings running an EV. If you calculate your car ownership as a monthly cost, including purchasing cost, you'd often find EV actually work out cheaper. For example:
Monthly lease cost: £250 vs £400
Yearly servicing cost: £180 vs £100 (EV have less moving parts, brake pads also wear less)
Fuel cost: £200 vs £50 based on my 16,000 annual mileage.
TOTAL monthly cost of all above: £465 vs £458. other costs are similar. EV also doesn't need to pay inner city charges in the future.

So programs like this will REALLY save you money: https://m.hyundaiusa.com/unlimited-plus If it's in UK, I'd be all over that! Shame all we get is £199 for a Leaf at 6000 annual mileage allowance.
 
Of course if PHEVS and electrics really take off then I'm sure forecourts will start charging accordingly and then I'm sure the Government will try and impose an electric fuel duty of some sort plus vat etc.

At the moment i think PHEVs are the sensible route so you've got the engine backup for long trips until the infrastructure is properly in place.
 
wuyanxu said:
Yearly servicing cost: £180 vs £100 (EV have less moving parts, brake pads also wear less).
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Why should brake pads wear any less on an EV? If your using the car for the same journeys that you would have a Petrol or diesel vehicle, brake pad wear will remain pretty much identical.
 
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wuyanxu said:
While on the subject of thinking differently for EV, people also often forget the cost savings running an EV.
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Trust me, I have a spreadsheet called "you're right, a Tesla would save me money....". But it doesn't add up for the journeys I do.
 
BTW - anybody know a free site where I can check the original spec of a vehicle? I.e. what was on it when first sold?

Or shall I just pay Motor Specs a few quid?
 
nilagin said:
Why should brake pads wear any less on an EV? If your using the car for the same journeys that you would have a Petrol or diesel vehicle, brake pad wear will remain pretty much identical.
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Perhaps the more aggressive regenerative braking system means less need to use the actual brakes? I'm not really sure about the technical side of regenerative braking though.
 
gman said:
Perhaps the more aggressive regenerative braking system means less need to use the actual brakes? I'm not really sure about the technical side of regenerative braking though.
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I've just done a quick read up and a hybrid or EV regenerative braking causes the motor to spin in reverse, slowing the car and also acting as a generator to recharge the battery. But they also have a normal braking system as back up, so two sets of pads to wear and when they do need to be replaced, even if they last twice as long could cost twice as much to replace so all you gave done is delay the outlay. My car was more than three and a half years old and covered 30k miles before the brake pads were replaced so saving on brake pads is likely to be negligible in the actual cost of running a car, no matter what is powering it.
 
Why could they cost twice as much if it's a normal braking system?
 
gman said:
Why could they cost twice as much if it's a normal braking system?
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They have two braking systems, the regenerative system which works on the motor and the conventional system as back up which works on the normal brake discs. Assuming the pads are of similar cost to normal pads, there are two sets to wear out. I don't know if the electric motor will slow the car, the same as an engine will when you take your foot off the pedal, plus the gearbox on a conventional engined car can also be used to help slow a vehicle and as the injectors shut off when you take your foot off the accelerator, you're not even using fuel so no added cost there.
 
Ah I thought it would be something similar to how the transmission slows you down or something like centrifugal. I've not read up on it but I guess there's going to be wear there as well regardless of the system as surely there will always be some sort of friction involved.
 
nilagin said:
My car was more than three and a half years old and covered 30k miles before the brake pads were replaced so saving on brake pads is likely to be negligible in the actual cost of running a car, no matter what is powering it.
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I know very little about cars (apart from how to point them where I need to go) but I know Halfords give me free brake pads whenever I need them. I'll bet that means they are really cheap :)
 
JonathanRyan said:
I know very little about cars (apart from how to point them where I need to go) but I know Halfords give me free brake pads whenever I need them. I'll bet that means they are really cheap :)
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Sounds like Halfords brake pads are.:eek:
For my car a decent brand (Brembo) rear pads are £40.99 and front pads are £83.99 at Eurocarparts. If they all need replacing at once it could be deemed a high cost, but if they last over 3 years it's not really a high cost at little around £40 a year.
 
I didn't even want to ask what the cost of replacing pads on my car would be, I'm sure it would be unnecessarily and disproportionately expensive so I opted for the maintenence contract to be included. The car uses mileage to tell me when to get them replaced which seems a little inaccurate to me?
 
gman said:
The car uses mileage to tell me when to get them replaced which seems a little inaccurate to me?
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That does seem very odd for something that depends on where a vehicle is used and how heavy a driver is on the brakes. I tend to brake very little and always late compared to most people I encounter.
 
nilagin said:
I've just done a quick read up and a hybrid or EV regenerative braking causes the motor to spin in reverse, slowing the car and also acting as a generator to recharge the battery. But they also have a normal braking system as back up, so two sets of pads to wear and when they do need to be replaced, even if they last twice as long could cost twice as much to replace so all you gave done is delay the outlay. My car was more than three and a half years old and covered 30k miles before the brake pads were replaced so saving on brake pads is likely to be negligible in the actual cost of running a car, no matter what is powering it.
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I'm glad you've bought this up, this is an area of EV that most people misunderstand.

There are no second set of pads. Only the single set same as other cars, and you can essentially drive your EV without ever touching the brake peddle. This is called one pedal driving, if you set up your car to do it. You can drive in traffic without ever using the brakes at all: http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/bmw/i3...mw-i3-through-london-without-using-the-brakes

Unlike a diesel car, where the vacuum within engine slows the car, or one of other scheme in petrol car. Electric motor are both a generator and a motor, energy can go both ways: electric to kinetic or kinetic to electric. So what happens is you stop supplying electrical power to the motor and apply a electrical load instead (charging the battery), this will cause the electric motor to become a generator and REALLY slow you down.

With EV, there are no engine oil need replacing every year, no timing belt every 100k, no DPF every 100k miles , no dual mass fly wheel every 80k, no gear box oil every 3 years, no turbo failures and no AdBlue needed. On Tesla, you will need battery coolant replacement, look after conventional brake system and cabin filter, that's it! No need for battery coolant refill on other EV's because they don't look after their batteries.



Personally, I'm 53k into my second hand car, still have not needed to change brake pads. But I drive 75% free flowing motorway and I use lower gear and engine braking a lot, I think there are no wear on torque converter autos? I've been really lucky with my current car, hardly ever need spending any repair. I'm looking at changing to a 4 door car at the moment, but the diesel + automatic gearbox minefield (DPF, type of DSG, expensive repairs) is making me want to give up and not bother! Just buy an EV, drivetrain is so simple there's not much can go wrong!
 
I currently drive the outlander PHEV as my company car (not through choice). My previous car was the BMW 330e, so can give a good comparison between the two.

Outlander
Mileage when running without charging average about 30mpg, but expect that to drop if you try to have a little fun. It does have a small fuel tank (about £45 to fill it), last month I did 2681 miles and put in £346 worth of fuel.
The gearbox (CVT) is horrible, if you test drive one, put your foot down and listen to it rev, it's embarrassing to hear.
The multimedia interface is terrible, mine is a 65 plate so the newer versions may be better. It's menu system is very badly laid out, you have to go through a load of screen presses just to get to the phone book. When you get there, scrolling through the list can be time consuming if you have a lot of contacts.
I don't charge mine, but have used the charge button in the car (watch your MPG drop when you use this), and it gives me about 18 miles of electric. Charging this way never fully charges it though, so more miles would be available if charged at the plug.
The satnav is poor. The traffic monitoring works via radio station RDS signal, so is very limited. It usually shows you traffic jams once your in them, instead of before you arrive. The voice of the satnav must've been recorded by the most miserable woman they could find (google "The Outlander’s satnav is evil"). The maps were out of date when I got the car, but they wanted £140 for the updates. I could buy a Tomtom with better traffic monitoring and free map updates for this.
Drop the rear seats and you get a huge boot space. I put our push bikes in there without the need to remove the front wheel for example.
On long journeys, it is very comfortable. I'm actually taking mine round Scotland in a fortnight and to be honest I think the Outlander will be good for this (except the fuel).

330e
Mileage was averaging around 46mpg, even when not charged. I did charge this car though, and was getting about 19 miles of electric. Like the Outlander, it does have a relatively small fuel tank.
The gearbox is awesome, the 8 speed ZF box is IMO as good as the DSG boxes on the VW's.
The iDrive just works and is easy to navigate. The standard satnav (I upgraded to the pronav) has very good traffic monitoring and will get you round most traffic jams.
Boot space is only reduced by 30-35mm from a standard 3 series, so no great loss, but no comparison to the Outlander obviously. However, if you want the rear seats to drop, it is an option and not standard.

Both cars are/were company cars which are great from a tax point of view. If I was buying one new, I'd go for the 330e everyday with a view to changing after three years. Wouldn't consider a used model due to the potential battery issues that may arise over time. I'm sure the repair/replacement cost would not be worth thinking about.

If your going to charge it everyday and only do short journeys, with a few long trips now and then, a PHEV will be very good. If not, you won't see the benefit of a hybrid system.

Hope this helps :)

One of the BMW :)
20160428_191148 by Andy Fletcher, on Flickr
 
nilagin said:
Why should brake pads wear any less on an EV? If your using the car for the same journeys that you would have a Petrol or diesel vehicle, brake pad wear will remain pretty much identical.
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On the Outlander you have paddles on the steering wheel. These control the braking strength of the motors, varying from 0 - 5 with 5 being the strongest and 0 like being in neutral coasting. Using 0 & 1 can be good on long inclines as no fuel is used, 2 is the standard setting and is like normal car engine braking. I use 3 for most journeys, but 4 & 5 can be used effectively to lower brake wear considerably. My only concern with the higher setting is that you can slow down pretty quick with no brake lights coming on. Of course this can also be used to panic the tailgaters :whistle:

For comparison, the 330e only had the factory set braking and was not adjustable.
 
nilagin said:
Sounds like Halfords brake pads are.:eek:
For my car a decent brand (Brembo) rear pads are £40.99 and front pads are £83.99 at Eurocarparts. If they all need replacing at once it could be deemed a high cost, but if they last over 3 years it's not really a high cost at little around £40 a year.
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I think the real answer is that compared to disks and fitting, the cost of pads is fairly negligible. It might be the way I drive or it might be my garage ripping me off but when the brakes need doing it tends to need disks and pads (I think you need new pads with new disks anyway) and overall the cost is reasonable and the car stops when I tell it to. Which is basically what I ned from my brakes :D
 
Right: update following a second day of viewings......

Firstly, all the garages seemed to be in a good mood today. Nobody was rude to me or tried to kidnap me (though obviously I didn't go back to VW or Toyota). First the no hopers

1. Peugeot 308. I'm surprised it comes in any colour other than beige. My life isn't dull enough to own one. I'm sure it's a lovely car (after all it's great on paper) but I don't like it.
2. Ford Mondeo. Actually a lot better than I expected but still almost as big as Hampshire (and not just in a good way) and surprisingly expensive and tough to find a petrol one.

Actually, it's interesting that petrol cars are in short supply ATM - second hand car lots are stuffed with diesels. When you ask for a petrol they kind of sigh and roll their eyes.....

And then the good stuff....

1. Petrol Honda Civic - I've gone off the diesel (and the one I liked had sold anyway). Something about this car makes me smile. I'm pretty sure it's the magic seats. If they had had the DASP version then I would probably have bought it and saved the rest of the day. But now I know what DASP is I really want it.... (BTW if anybody knows of a petrol DASP with cloth magic seats then let me know).

2. Hyundai Ioniq. Finally, there's a decent hybrid in the world. Bigger, better built and nicer to drive than you expect. I also talked my way into a surprise 12% discount which amazed me. It is also stuffed with tech.

3. And then I went to BMW. Nearly didn't test drive one (petrol 118s are *very* scarce ATM and it lacks even a basic reversing camera). Also, I hate the brand. Would never look at one - let alone drive one. And yeah, as I walked away from it, I said to my wife "why did it have to be so good.......?"
 
Amazing, I guess due to VED tax change, brand new hybrids are no longer in such high demand. Definitely get the Ioniq, it is the best car out of the 3 you've seen today, because it's a hybrid and it is cheaper than the BMW :) Also it's loaded with tech as standard.
 
nilagin said:
That does seem very odd for something that depends on where a vehicle is used and how heavy a driver is on the brakes. I tend to brake very little and always late compared to most people I encounter.
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It does it for a few things including oil etc. Although the intervals between oil changes seems quite long. Could explain a few of the common timing chain and turbo issues BMW have in later years.
 
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