Humans are rubbish sometimes

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MartynK said:
It's legal in the UK, so why worry about what happens in some US states?
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We were talking about an American woman, so I used the U.S as an example, but thanks for taking the time to comment.
 
Big Andy said:
If this was what is known as a canned lion hunt then it is not harming the wild life at all, .
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i bet the lion would disagree with that (if it was still about )
 
donut said:
i bet the lion would disagree with that (if it was still about )
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You are right but the key word there is wild not some poor farmed creature. It is the fact that some (sad) people will pays 10s of thousands to do this that the land can be kept in a natural state and not turned into farms etc. Not the best solution and I wish I new what was but it's true that this happens.
 
i would say the keyword is life
 
Hi Andrew
donut said:
i would say the keyword is life
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Honest question, \ people will hunt (which I suspect we both find abhorrent) would you rather they 'hunted' a wild (and possibly endangered) animal, or a farm bred canned one?
 
All of this abhorrent killing, poaching can be tracked back to one thing. Money. If there's one old saying that is very true it is 'Money is the root of all evil'.
If the canned hunt organisers didnt make money from people wanting to kill, they wouldnt exist. If there wasnt a high price paid for Ivory, tiger testicles etc they wouldnt be poached.
Everyone moans about the poachers doing the killing but nothing seems to be done to remove ivory (etc) from sale all around the globe. Thats where the efforts need to go.
 
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how on earth can you compare fishing with shooting a lion? first off we dont know if this lion was bred for this (at least ive not seen any source on that, i floated the suggestion earlier but was only a suggestion).

last i checked common course fish populations weren't on the rapid decline unlike lions (source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion#Population_and_conservation_status)
 
DorsetDude said:
All of this abhorrent killing, poaching can be tracked back to one thing. Money. If there's one old saying that is very true it is 'Money is the root of all evil'.
If the canned hunt organisers didnt make money from people wanting to kill, they wouldnt exist. If there wasnt a high price paid for Ivory, tiger testicles etc they wouldnt be poached.
Everyone moans about the poachers doing the killing but nothing seems to be done to remove ivory (etc) from sale all around the globe. Thats where the efforts need to go.
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All true, but where the thread started, she is not a poacher. She is doing it for the sheer 'enjoyment' of killing the animal (and many other breeds), which is even worse.
 
Eddzz!! said:
She should swap out that gun for a long lens!

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-...tured-dead-lion-2798136#.UokCYU_HkyY.facebook
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Humans are rubbish all the time. So many people go on about the awful way we treat animals, yet don't think a second about eating the meat of an animal solely bred to be butchered then eaten, or about wearing coats, shoes, accessories made from the hide of animals solely bred to be used to make clothing and accessories for humans. The woman killed an animal, and the internet explodes. Yet how many people are moaning about all those bred-for-human-use being killed today? So many double standards!
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Humans are rubbish all the time. So many people go on about the awful way we treat animals, yet don't think a second about eating the meat of an animal solely bred to be butchered then eaten, or about wearing coats, shoes, accessories made from the hide of animals solely bred to be used to make clothing and accessories for humans. The woman killed an animal, and the internet explodes. Yet how many people are moaning about all those bred-for-human-use being killed today? So many double standards!
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Im not saying it is alright, but all of those examples you mention are where the animal is being killed to fullfil a specific need/purpose. This lion (bred for hunting or otherwise), was killed purely for the pleasure of killing it.
 
Nikon_Nick said:
Im not saying it is alright, but all of those examples you mention are where the animal is being killed to fullfil a specific need/purpose. This lion (bred for hunting or otherwise), was killed purely for the pleasure of killing it.
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But at the end of the day the animal is being killed. Yet we've managed to change how we deal or feel about it if we sugar-coat it in "being killed to fulfill a specific purpose". I'm not preaching at all, all I am saying is that we as a species are very two faced.
 
Ricardodaforce said:
But at the end of the day the animal is being killed. Yet we've managed to change how we deal or feel about it if we sugar-coat it in "being killed to fulfill a specific purpose". I'm not preaching at all, all I am saying is that we as a species are very two faced.
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Agreed, we humans have a lot to answer for.
 
boyfalldown said:
Hi Andrew



Honest question, \ people will hunt (which I suspect we both find abhorrent) would you rather they 'hunted' a wild (and possibly endangered) animal, or a farm bred canned one?
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to me thats a bit like saying ,i've taken your family hostage ,,,i'm going to kill one of them ,which one is it to be ?
but yes you are right ,people will hunt they will kill each other ,be cruel to animals be sadistic .
and are farm bred canned lions not as endangered as wild ones ?
 
Ricardodaforce said:
Humans are rubbish all the time. So many people go on about the awful way we treat animals, yet don't think a second about eating the meat of an animal solely bred to be butchered then eaten, or about wearing coats, shoes, accessories made from the hide of animals solely bred to be used to make clothing and accessories for humans. The woman killed an animal, and the internet explodes. Yet how many people are moaning about all those bred-for-human-use being killed today? So many double standards!
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Totally agree. I do struggle with the hypocracy here - bad to kill a lion, ok to set mousetraps at home, or go fishing?

What about poultry farming - the chickens you eat from Tesco are bred in poor conditions, killed when something like 2-3 months old and have an awful quality of life. Thats ok.... same as when the horsemeat scandal hit. Many were furious they could have been eating horse but taking aside the traceability and safety of meat element, whats the difference between eating that and beef? People are shocked some eat cat and dog but is that any different to lamb, or rabbit?

I write this as an avid meat eater, and someone who likes leather seats in cars, but you cant criticise her while you are responsible for poor treatment and death of animals. Do you need a leather jacket or leather sofa? Do you need to eat meat? The reason you do is because you enjoy it - this woman enjoys the thrill of killing an animal.
 
donut said:
to me thats a bit like saying ,i've taken your family hostage ,,,i'm going to kill one of them ,which one is it to be ?
but yes you are right ,people will hunt they will kill each other ,be cruel to animals be sadistic .
and are farm bred canned lions not as endangered as wild ones ?
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I don't see it like that. I don't think thats a great analogy. People will hunt, sadly. Theres too much money and too much history of it.

Farm bred canned animals by definition are bred for purpose, and nothing like as fragile as wild populations are. As, no matter what you or I think, people will hunt then I'd rather they got their jollies like this (which isn't the same as saying its I'm OK with it).
 
cambsno said:
Totally agree. I do struggle with the hypocracy here - bad to kill a lion, ok to set mousetraps at home, or go fishing?

What about poultry farming - the chickens you eat from Tesco are bred in poor conditions, killed when something like 2-3 months old and have an awful quality of life. Thats ok.... same as when the horsemeat scandal hit. Many were furious they could have been eating horse but taking aside the traceability and safety of meat element, whats the difference between eating that and beef? People are shocked some eat cat and dog but is that any different to lamb, or rabbit?

I write this as an avid meat eater, and someone who likes leather seats in cars, but you cant criticise her while you are responsible for poor treatment and death of animals. Do you need a leather jacket or leather sofa? Do you need to eat meat? The reason you do is because you enjoy it - this woman enjoys the thrill of killing an animal.
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neil_g said:
how on earth can you compare fishing with shooting a lion? first off we dont know if this lion was bred for this (at least ive not seen any source on that, i floated the suggestion earlier but was only a suggestion).

last i checked common course fish populations weren't on the rapid decline unlike lions (source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion#Population_and_conservation_status)
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neil_g said:
how on earth can you compare fishing with shooting a lion? first off we dont know if this lion was bred for this (at least ive not seen any source on that, i floated the suggestion earlier but was only a suggestion).

last i checked common course fish populations weren't on the rapid decline unlike lions (source - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion#Population_and_conservation_status)
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Kind of easily. I have far more problem if its a truly wild animal then a canned one (but we don't know as your suggestion). Simply because of the damage thats done to the environment to protect those common course fish populations. I realise it won't be a popular viewpoint, but there has been great damage caused to water bird populations by fishermen in the name of 'sport', not to mention the attitude from some that we should destroy recovering native wildlife populations (particularly otters) to protect their 'sport'. So I tend to see them as as bad as each other. Somehow against that a canned Lion hunt (if it was) seem not as bad
 
Overexposed said:
Makes me physically sick! Stalked? With a rifle and tripod ??- would have been interesting to see if she'd been turfed out into the bush alone who would have come out on top. Typical of macho American gun culture, it wouldn't surprise me if she took it out with a drone! Shameful!
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Already happened (sort of) in the states:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_hunting

"Internet hunting is the practice of hunting via remotely controlled firearms that can be aimed and shot using online webcams. The first internet hunting website, Live-Shot.com, was created in 2005 by John Lockwood, who saw it as a way to provide an authentic hunting experience for disabled persons.[1] According to the Humane Society, the operation consisted of "a fenced pen stocked with animals [where Lockwood] set up a tripod with a camera and a firearm".
 
boyfalldown said:
Kind of easily. I have far more problem if its a truly wild animal then a canned one (but we don't know as your suggestion). Simply because of the damage thats done to the environment to protect those common course fish populations. I realise it won't be a popular viewpoint, but there has been great damage caused to water bird populations by fishermen in the name of 'sport', not to mention the attitude from some that we should destroy recovering native wildlife populations (particularly otters) to protect their 'sport'. So I tend to see them as as bad as each other. Somehow against that a canned Lion hunt (if it was) seem not as bad
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I think you might need to supply some very good stats to back up what is a basically rather hysterical and inflammatory post
 
s162216 said:
Already happened (sort of) in the states:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_hunting

"Internet hunting is the practice of hunting via remotely controlled firearms that can be aimed and shot using online webcams. The first internet hunting website, Live-Shot.com, was created in 2005 by John Lockwood, who saw it as a way to provide an authentic hunting experience for disabled persons.[1] According to the Humane Society, the operation consisted of "a fenced pen stocked with animals [where Lockwood] set up a tripod with a camera and a firearm".
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I just can't believe that!
 
Overexposed said:
I think you might need to supply some very good stats to back up what is a basically rather hysterical and inflammatory post
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I think you'd need to explain in what way thats hysterical. You don't like it, thats cool. But try arguing against it instead of just making daft statements.

The damage done by fishing tackle to waterfowl is well documented.Are you really trying to say that lead weights and discarded tackle aren't and have never been a problem.

Why would this statement have been needed if there wasn't an attitude in some quarters that recovering Otter populations were an issue

Joint statement about Otters and Fisheries from Angling Trust, English Nature and the Environment Agency
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The Wildlife Management Group met recently to exchange information and to seek opportunities to resolve issues regarding otters and freshwater fisheries. The meeting was attended by experts from the Angling Trust, Natural England, the Environment Agency, the Angling Trades Association and others. It focussed, in particular, on the problems involving predation on specimen-sized coarse fish in rivers, although a wide range of issues were also debated. The continuing issue of fencing for selected stillwaters was also discussed in depth

The Group identified the areas of common ground, and it has started to explore how it can help anglers and the Environment Agency develop healthy and balanced river environments and habitats capable of supporting sustainable, diverse fish populations. Work is progressing on establishing the current distribution of otters, listing useful reference documents and producing guidance to fishery managers on creating sustainable habitats for fish and other forms of wildlife.

During the meeting it became clear that there are several, widely-quoted misconceptions about otters which need to be addressed and corrected:-

• ‘The otter predation problem has arisen because of the reintroduction programme’. Otter numbers have increased naturally throughout Britain as a consequence of successful recolonisation and breeding following a major decline in numbers caused by pesticides. The reintroduction programme has simply increased the speed of recovery in parts of England, notably in East Anglia.

• ‘The reintroduction programme is continuing unchecked’. Between 1983 and 1999 a small number (117) of captive-bred otters were released to the wild by the Otter Trust. The Vincent Wildlife Trust released rehabilitated animals between 1990 and 1996 (49), over half as part of a Yorkshire release programme, but also a few into East Anglia, Northumbria and on the Trent. No introductions of captive-bred otters have occurred since 1999. There have been releases of rehabilitated or orphaned animals, once they have been nursed back to health, which number no more than four or five a year. As far as it is practicable, rehabilitated otters are released back to the areas where they were found.

• ‘Trapping or culling is needed to control otter numbers’. There is no call or case for the culling or trapping of otters, which enjoy full protection under international and national legislation. Otter numbers will be constrained by available breeding habitat and prey.

• ‘Otters are eating coarse fish because of the decline in eel populations’. Otters are opportunist predators which tend to catch and consume fish most readily available to them. There is no evidence that they ‘prefer’ or select particular fish species.

It was agreed that the over-arching strategy should be to create and maintain healthy aquatic environments where balanced populations of fish and otters can co-exist in a sustainable manner. The majority of complaints about otter predation on rivers have arisen where fisheries are suffering from one or more environmental problems - over-abstraction, pollution, habitat damage, etc. The Group recognised that there are and would continue to be site-specific problems involving levels of predation which may reduce the amenity and fishery value.

The Group is exploring areas of possible applied research which might be usefully undertaken to enhance knowledge of otters in the wild and their impacts on fisheries with unbalanced fish populations. It would appear that problems are localised to certain rivers, rather than being universal, and it is important to understand why this is the case. Part of that process will be to identify fish populations which are considered to have been adversely affected by otter predation to assess the nature and severity of the problems and to cross-reference this information to historic fisheries data sets. The Environment Agency is to examine a programme of priority fish restocking to restore sustainable fish populations to these fisheries.

In addition, it was agreed that an information pamphlet will be prepared and issued, setting out the facts about otters and fisheries and providing guidance on how specific problems can be minimised, especially on stillwater fisheries where the impacts on economic and social benefits arising have been most significant. This will complement the recent publication of a joint advisory booklet by the Environment Agency and the Wildlife Trusts on ‘Otters and Stillwater Fisheries’.

These will be among the matters for discussion when the Wildlife Management Group meets again, in the next three months.
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Further to this, I guess (maybe wrongly) you're a fisherman? and I presume you'll also regard it as hysterical that I regard fishing in an over stocked lakes the same as canned hunting. I'm not sure what sport there is in either?
 
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Overexposed said:
I just can't believe that!
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Well they have banned it now in most States, but I think its still appalling that someone would actually come up with let alone implement an idea like that.
 
As
boyfalldown said:
I think you'd need to explain in what way thats hysterical. You don't like it, thats cool. But try arguing against it instead of just making daft statements.

The damage done by fishing tackle to waterfowl is well documented.Are you really trying to say that lead weights and discarded tackle aren't and have never been a problem.

Why would this statement have been needed if there wasn't an attitude in some quarters that recovering Otter populations were an issue



Further to this, I guess (maybe wrongly) you're a fisherman? and I presume you'll also regard it as hysterical that I regard fishing in an over stocked lakes the same as canned hunting. I'm not sure what sport there is in either?
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As I suspected you have no facts! - Firstly you may like to consider that lead weights haven't been used in fishing for well over 20 years, secondly discarded tackle - give me some facts, again you can't as you would realise that normal litter such as ring pulls, plastic bags and plastic can holders cause far more damage. Do you drive a car? what about Marine Oil spills?

As regards Otters - the problems are that they are attacking Fish farms and stocked fisheries, peoples livelyhoods which should be able to be protected - if not you will end up with an Otter problem on the same scale as Comorants or Urban Foxes, other population that cant be controlled!

As to whether or not I fish, it is immaterial, you are quoting verbiage and cannot back up what you claim. Your claims have no factual basis, are out of date and hence hysterical. I am a conservationist and realise that some populations need to be controlled for their own good, you on the other hand have no idea what you are talking about!
 
Overexposed said:
As I suspected you have no facts! - Firstly you may like to consider that lead weights haven't been used in fishing for well over 20 years, secondly discarded tackle - give me some facts, again you can't as you would realise that normal litter such as ring pulls, plastic bags and plastic can holders cause far more damage. Do you drive a car? what about Marine Oil spills?
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First off we were talking about fishing, and its comparison to other forms of hunting. Its irrelevant if I run a car to this discussion. So to for that matter are litter, or marine oil spills.

Lead weights aren't illegal in the UK, and are still used. The larger sizes have been illegal since 1997. However not all sizes. And they're still used.

Overexposed said:
As regards Otters - the problems are that they are attacking Fish farms and stocked fisheries, peoples livelyhoods which should be able to be protected - if not you will end up with an Otter problem on the same scale as Comorants or Urban Foxes, other population that cant be controlled!
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Exactly my point.

boyfalldown said:
Not to mention the attitude from some that we should destroy recovering native wildlife populations (particularly otters) to protect their 'sport'.
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Its OK to damage, or destroy native wildlife populations for your 'sport'.Not for their own good. I'm frankly amazed you can describe a recovering, but rare population of a top predator as a 'problem'. I'm sure if you were that worried about conservation you'd regard a healthy eco system, with natural stocks of predators and prey as a good thing.

The question, simply asked was how can I regard fishing in the same way as other forms of hunting. I've answered that. You may think I'm wrong, but from your answers not even you denies fishing causes heaps of environmental damage
 
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boyfalldown said:
Its OK to damage, or destroy native wildlife populations for your 'sport'.Not for their own good. I'm frankly amazed you can describe a recovering, but rare population of a top predator as a 'problem'. I'm sure if you were that worried about conservation you'd regard a healthy eco system, with natural stocks of predators and prey as a good thing.

The question, simply asked was how can I regard fishing in the same way as other forms of hunting. I've answered that. You may think I'm wrong, but from your answers not even you denies fishing causes heaps of environmental damage
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Humans with guns are not a 'natural stock of predators'.
 
boyfalldown said:
Sorry, I don't understand. I never said they were.
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You said:

I'm sure if you were that worried about conservation you'd regard a healthy eco system, with natural stocks of predators and prey as a good thing.
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How can we hope to have a healthy eco-system when the predators become the prey? It doesn't make sense. Humans don't fit into a natural eco-system, more so in this instance than in any other I can recall. We literally have zero purpose to be out killing Lions, it gives us nothing but selfish enjoyment and that is wrong. You cannot compare it to fishing, not in the slightest, mainly for the fact that fishing is participated in for more than just sport.
 
Eddzz!! said:
You said:



How can we hope to have a healthy eco-system when the predators become the prey? It doesn't make sense. Humans don't fit into a natural eco-system, more so in this instance than in any other I can recall. We literally have zero purpose to be out killing Lions, it gives us nothing but selfish enjoyment and that is wrong. You cannot compare it to fishing, not in the slightest, mainly for the fact that fishing is participated in for more than just sport.
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I did say that. You're right. But you've misunderstood me.I'm not sure how you got from it I was referring to humans with guns as 'top predator'. I was referring to Otters, and them being a top predator as part of a healthy eco system. Certainly not humans with guns.Rather then having them 'controlled' to protect fishing interests.

I'm afraid I can, and do think its comparable to course fishing. (not trawling or otherwise fishing for food).Not least because of the environmental damage both cause. I don't see a great difference between the guy who hunts a canned lion in a cage, and a guy who fishes for an overfed, overweight fish in an overstocked lake. Both are bred to be caught and both demonstrate extreme laziness on the part of the 'sportsman'. Just because a Lion is bigger and more charismatic doesn't make either more worthy somehow. Anyway just MHO
 
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boyfalldown said:
I did say that. You're right. But you've misunderstood me. I was referring to Otters, and them being a top predator as part of a healthy eco system. Certainly not humans with guns.Rather then having them 'controlled' to protect fishing interests.

I'm afraid I can, and do think its comparable to course fishing. (not trawling or otherwise fishing for food).Not least because of the environmental damage both cause. I don't see a great difference between the guy who hunts a canned lion in a cage, and a guy who fishes for an overfed, overweight fish in an overstocked lake. Both are bred to be caught and both demonstrate extreme laziness on the part of the 'sportsman'. Just because a Lion is bigger and more charismatic doesn't make either more worthy somehow. Anyway just MHO
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The more you post the more verbiage you spout,
As regards fishing weights, the small sizes we allegedly causing lead poisoning when waterbirds in particular Swans sifted the bottom, these were banned - the old lead shot that can cause harm now are those larger than no 6 which is the shot dispensed from shotgun cartridges, not Anglers.
As regards Otters, they are a wild animal reintroduced to live in rivers not trout farms or stocked lakes, hence they become a pest and need to be controlled, otherwise you get fat lazy otters totally unendangered not living in natural habitat.
As for comparing Coarse Fishing with Hunting a Caged lion you have a great imagination but I'm not sure where the Caged Lion came from. You will also find that without Anglers most of the Otter's natural habitat would be polluted, abstracted wildernesses devoid of fish or otters. Mind you, you do live in London so WTF would you know about Country sports or habitat! S
 
Overexposed said:
The more you post the more verbiage you spout,
As regards fishing weights, the small sizes we allegedly causing lead poisoning when waterbirds in particular Swans sifted the bottom, these were banned - the old lead shot that can cause harm now are those larger than no 6 which is the shot dispensed from shotgun cartridges, not Anglers.
As regards Otters, they are a wild animal reintroduced to live in rivers not trout farms or stocked lakes, hence they become a pest and need to be controlled, otherwise you get fat lazy otters totally unendangered not living in natural habitat.
As for comparing Coarse Fishing with Hunting a Caged lion you have a great imagination but I'm not sure where the Caged Lion came from. You will also find that without Anglers most of the Otter's natural habitat would be polluted, abstracted wildernesses devoid of fish or otters. Mind you, you do live in London so WTF would you know about Country sports or habitat! S
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How right you must be. Living in London means I must know nothing except how to survive day to day in the great concrete jungle.must be how I know about canned hunts (btw it was someone else speculated a canned hunt)


But that for all that lack of knowledge I do know that there have been a massive total of 117 otters reintroduced. In total. Rest have restablished, not reintroduced

Whereas the anglers, great guardians of the countryside, fountains of knowledge we must bow too.

I have opinions different from yours. I'm sorry that offends you.im also sorry if my opinion of fisherman causes you upset

On my way out i must make sure to tell the guys at the local swan rescue all the lead they find comes from shotguns let off in the concrete jungle
 
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To be honest, this thread is getting a little heated!

The main reason I'm soo fond of lions is because I've been fortunate enough to cuddle 3, inc cubs and they are totally different to what you would think (yes they were captive but still just as dangerous) they should be relying on humans for safety, not the current, disgusting way that are being treated.

When you consider that there are next to no deaths caused to humans by lions each year it's not exactly fare is it!

There's no proof that the lions were canned / captive. At the end of the day this woman will eventually get the other end of the Karma - could be a Tiger charging towards her, you just never know, I'm not saying that Should be wished upon someone but usually if you do enough wrongs in life, it will have its revenge some way or another!
 
There are no deaths by pike but people still hunt them!!

As for karma... How many animals have been killed so that we can have leather shoes and eat meat when we don't need to.
 
boyfalldown said:
How right you must be. Living in London means I must know nothing except how to survive day to day in the great concrete jungle.must be how I know about canned hunts (btw it was someone else speculated a canned hunt)

Whereas the anglers, great guardians of the countryside, fountains of knowledge we must bow too.

I have opinions different from yours. I'm sorry that offends you.im also sorry if my opinion of fisherman causes you upset

On my way out i must make sure to tell the guys at the local swan rescue all the lead they find comes from shotguns let off in the concrete jungle
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Hugh if you don't want a heated discussion don't spout rubbish you've read in the Daily Mail. I asked you at the start to provide statistics and analysis to back up your rather bigoted views.
You supplied nothing but further unsubstantiated bigotry,hearsay and your opinion which you have a very high opinion of!
If you knew the slightest bit about what you profess to know so much about you would realise how much conservation work Anglers put in to the countryside and how much natural habitat depends on conservation. So when you compare Angling to caged Lion hunting there's only one person you are making a fool of, yourself! When was the last time you spent your weekend clearing a water course of Himalayan Balsam to stop bank erosion?
 
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