How will advances in digital Technology change how exposures are made ?

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Is there a need to things differently to get the most out of Digital Photography?

When digital cameras came on to the scene there was an obvious need to take advantage of the skills Film photographers already had.


There was a conscious effort at equivalence at every stage.

A sensor was equivalent to a film
Illumination and exposure were directly related to film speed and ISO
A Digital ISO setting was the equivalent of film speed.
Pixels densities were the equivalent of film grain size.
Film development and raw processing were equivalent.
Print sizes were related to pixel numbers.
Graininess and noise were related

For a while I thought all these things were true
when in fact none of them are.
It is now very difficult to start again thinking with a clean slate.

The most important consideration is that film and sensors are nothing like each other... they do not even do the same thing.

Film receives and stores an image formed by photons, these release within it self, atoms of silver on grains of sensitised halide. The sensitivity of that halide emulsion is predetermined in manufacture, and combined with further enhancement (development) grows those silver atoms into a visible image. Graininess is the spaces between those developed grains.
The film becomes the carrier of the image

A sensor is quite different, but it too captures both photons and and passes them on as signal of data and noise. Each discrete segment (pixel) of that sensor is covered by a coloured filter. In turn each pixel is affectively a photon counter and passes that data to a central processor which then either passes that partially processed data as a raw file on a data card. Or more completely processes it as a JPG.
A sensor has a fixed native sensitivity to photons, It does not have an ISO speed.

I used to suppose that the ISO setting was achieved by amplification of the signal and so the sensor became more sensitive... like using a faster film. But after reading a few Geoffrey Crawley and professor Newman's articles I realised that this is not the case.
The sensitivity remains fairly constant. The ISO setting simply changes the processing of that signal.

The result is that a raw capture is essentially always at native sensitivity and is proportional to both the illumination, exposure and Photons counted . It has no ISO value until a modifier is applied during processing.

A JPG also originates from the raw signal but is processed in camera, using predetermined criteria derived to produce an equivalent ISO speed. (it disposes of the unwanted data)

When we change an ISO setting we are “pre selecting” a particular slice of the raw signal data. We are not increasing sensitivity.

This has further implications....
End of first instalment...
 
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OMG... I wrote my dissertation on this 20 years ago... we still banging on about this? :)

Rather than tell us what we already know... (how these things actually work)... can you cut to the chase and tell us why digital photographers shouldn't be working with the same diligence film photographers had to? Seeing as that was the conversation that prompted you to make a new thread.

I'm assuming this is where it's going anyway, because so far you've just explained to us what most of us know already..... however, we already DO work differently with digital.. but you still need to work as diligently as you did with film. There's still no excuse for poor exposure, casual snapping and chimping.

It's obvious that you need to work differently to get the best from digital. However, the discipline that film demanded is still something that's needed today if you ARE to get the best from digital.


"end of first installment? Do I need popcorn? :)
 
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OMG... I wrote my dissertation on this 20 years ago... we still banging on about this? :)

Rather than tell us what we already know... (how these things actually work)... can you cut to the chase and tell us why digital photographers shouldn't be working with the same diligence film photographers had to? Seeing as that was the conversation that prompted you to make a new thread.

I'm assuming this is where it's going anyway, because so far you've just explained to us what most of us know already..... however, we already DO work differently with digital.. but you still need to work as diligently as you did with film. There's still no excuse for poor exposure, casual snapping and chimping.

It's obvious that you need to work differently to get the best from digital. However, the discipline that film demanded is still something that's needed today if you ARE to get the best from digital.


"end of first installment? Do I need popcorn? :)

I think that is a very poor way to respond to someone who has taken the trouble to post information that will undoubtedly be informative to a number of visitors to the forum ... just because you understand it doesn't mean that everyone does.
 
Actually I think the problem is getting tied into the technical rather than artistic/photographic differences.

Thes a lot of differences with digital, noise and the reasons for, colour correction (sometimes for artistic reasons), shooting raw or jpeg, the ability to convert to monochrome, sharpening...

Can you tell I've just covered this in my Oca work :)
 
I think that is a very poor way to respond to someone who has taken the trouble to post information that will undoubtedly be informative to a number of visitors to the forum ... just because you understand it doesn't mean that everyone does.

Not really, I thought the OP came across much like an end of the world fanboy, change your ways now or forever be doomed kind of things!

But in answer to the title, since the post went off on a tangent, yes there is a necessity to do some things differently, but most of it remains unchanged.

Thinking specifically of exposure, you get a lot more leeway with film (I'm thinking C41 here), you can use exposure to control other image qualities that you can't do with digital the same way. For example if I want to shoot people, I may want low contrast, in which case I could simply overexpose by a stop or two on film without losing any detail. On digital that isn't going to happen, but I could expose correctly then play with contrast later - which I can't do with film. :thumbs:
 
I'm not sure where you're going with this Terry, but for me the photography establishment hasn't really 'got' digital yet.

For instance, the book most recommended to new photographers is 'Understanding Exposure', but although it's still probably the best book on exposure and it's 'updated for digital' it still goes into a lot of stuff that's become irrelevant, and doesn't cover:
  • The challenges of digital capture - how to deal with the smaller range of the digital sensor
  • Using the histogram to understand your exposure
  • ETTR
  • Clipping aids on the rear LCD

Which are some of the most important things I'd want to teach a newcomer to photography about exposure:thinking:.

The other thing that's not handled well for newcomers is an understanding of the whole beginning to end process, that boosting contrast and saturation in post isn't a great alternative for shooting in better light. That whilst PP is an important part of the process - it's finishing touches, not for trying to put right what wasn't there in the first place - we have endless discussions about this but I'm not sure the message gets 'out there'.

On that - the whole importance of light, camera skills can be taught to a monkey, but the ability to see light appears to be too tricky for discussion. New photographers get so caught up in measuring the amount of light that once they 'get it' they think they 'understand light' which is miles from the truth.
 
In painting terms, it would be a bit like the difference in working with oils or acrylics. Both demand different techniques, both need to be properly understood if the results are to be good. The mistake comes in insisting that one is better that the other. It isn't, but it is different.
 
For me it's not a question of 'need'. It's much more a case of opportunity. The upsides of digital as an enabler of all sorts of things, not least individual creativity, means that as a pursuit the boundaries of photography have been expanded way beyond the artefact base of the analogue form. Yes, we can be picky about successes and failings of the actual mechanisms but they're only so important and quite trivial when compared to the doors that the technology opens.
 
OMG... I wrote my dissertation on this 20 years ago... we still banging on about this? :)

Rather than tell us what we already know... (how these things actually work)... can you cut to the chase and tell us why digital photographers shouldn't be working with the same diligence film photographers had to? Seeing as that was the conversation that prompted you to make a new thread.

I'm assuming this is where it's going anyway, because so far you've just explained to us what most of us know already..... however, we already DO work differently with digital.. but you still need to work as diligently as you did with film. There's still no excuse for poor exposure, casual snapping and chimping.

It's obvious that you need to work differently to get the best from digital. However, the discipline that film demanded is still something that's needed today if you ARE to get the best from digital.


"end of first instalment? Do I need popcorn? :)

Jumping to conclusions as usual ....but no problem...

And twenty years ago almost no one understood this stuff...and many still do not.

I have never disputed the need for Knowledge or skill...or diligence as you put it. so I won't bother with that. That was your take not mine.

But when I have worked through other comments I will move on....
 
I think that is a very poor way to respond to someone who has taken the trouble to post information that will undoubtedly be informative to a number of visitors to the forum ... just because you understand it doesn't mean that everyone does.

Thanks...
and quite true ...we are still in the dark ages of digital....
 
I'm ashamed to say I hadn't really put much thought into the actual differences between film and sensor... Thanks for the explanation that even I can understand
 
Actually I think the problem is getting tied into the technical rather than artistic/photographic differences.

Thes a lot of differences with digital, noise and the reasons for, colour correction (sometimes for artistic reasons), shooting raw or jpeg, the ability to convert to monochrome, sharpening...

Can you tell I've just covered this in my Oca work :)

This is of course be a necessarily brief technical view of Digital photography. The science behind it is far deeper than I would care to think about.

The application of Digital technology and understanding its ramifications ensure that we understand what we are doing when we approach our Creative moments and we are better able to get the results we need.

Even in a lifetime of study you will not have "Covered" the subjects you list.

That is much like the American tourist that does London in the morning, on a stop over to doing Paris in the evening.
Learning is a continuous process
But it is perhaps a good start.
 
Not really, I thought the OP came across much like an end of the world fanboy, change your ways now or forever be doomed kind of things!

But in answer to the title, since the post went off on a tangent, yes there is a necessity to do some things differently, but most of it remains unchanged.

Thinking specifically of exposure, you get a lot more leeway with film (I'm thinking C41 here), you can use exposure to control other image qualities that you can't do with digital the same way. For example if I want to shoot people, I may want low contrast, in which case I could simply overexpose by a stop or two on film without losing any detail. On digital that isn't going to happen, but I could expose correctly then play with contrast later - which I can't do with film. :thumbs:

Very little of what you say is true.
 
I'm ashamed to say I hadn't really put much thought into the actual differences between film and sensor... Thanks for the explanation that even I can understand

Thanks
 
I'm not sure where you're going with this Terry, but for me the photography establishment hasn't really 'got' digital yet.

For instance, the book most recommended to new photographers is 'Understanding Exposure', but although it's still probably the best book on exposure and it's 'updated for digital' it still goes into a lot of stuff that's become irrelevant, and doesn't cover:

I see what you are getting at but I don't know that book.

On that - the whole importance of light, camera skills can be taught to a monkey, but the ability to see light appears to be too tricky for discussion. New photographers get so caught up in measuring the amount of light that once they 'get it' they think they 'understand light' which is miles from the true
The very word Photography indicates the essential nature of light.
without it ... nothing....
This thought can be expanded to fill endless books, all different.
 
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I just think this thread would be more constructive if Terry just said what he wanted to say instead of the back story, melodrama and serialised delivery...


Just make your point.... if there is one beyond the need to work differently with digital... which is obvious.
 
Not really, I thought the OP came across much like an end of the world fanboy, change your ways now or forever be doomed kind of things!

But in answer to the title, since the post went off on a tangent, yes there is a necessity to do some things differently, but most of it remains unchanged.

Thinking specifically of exposure, you get a lot more leeway with film (I'm thinking C41 here), you can use exposure to control other image qualities that you can't do with digital the same way. For example if I want to shoot people, I may want low contrast, in which case I could simply overexpose by a stop or two on film without losing any detail. On digital that isn't going to happen, but I could expose correctly then play with contrast later - which I can't do with film. :thumbs:

Thread Titles do tend to be dramatic But no worry....

The way we think about photography probably will change (change is always inevitable)
We will think even more about controlling the amount of light (photons) reaching the camera sensor than thinking that ISO setting some how controls this. It does not.

But more of that later....
 
Thread Titles do tend to be dramatic But no worry....

The way we think about photography probably will change (change is always inevitable)
We will think even more about controlling the amount of light (photons) reaching the camera sensor than thinking that ISO setting some how controls this. It does not.

But more of that later....

But turned on it's head, is there any benefit in treating ISO not as a pre-determination, whilst ever the camera firmware kicks out an image based on that choice?

Photography has always been about controlling the amount of light that creates the image, But we can only control what's available to us. So we used more responsive film where light was lower - we use higher ISO's for the same reason.

The film didn't control the amount of light - just the same as the sensor doesn't. The choice of ISO allowed us to deal with the light we had then as it still does now.
 
I thought David's first post was a little harsh. But I'm coming round to the thought that you are coming over a bit too 'zen master' here Terry.
 
I just think this thread would be more constructive if Terry just said what he wanted to say instead of the back story, melodrama and serialised delivery...


Just make your point.... if there is one beyond the need to work differently with digital... which is obvious.

If this was a "one to one" that might be the way to go, but it is not.
We are all coming from different bases with different understandings and different photographic needs.

It is very difficult to reduce such a large subject to a few words , this can not be a dissertation nor a throw away argument, neither are appropriate... it will take as long as it takes.


You could Just wait to the end and add your poo poo's then. :)
 
Thread Titles do tend to be dramatic But no worry....
If you chose to make them so, yes.

The way we think about photography probably will change (change is always inevitable)

Profound. What next, you going to patiently explain to use that the Earth is not in the centre of the solarsystem? The way we think about photography has always been changing. You make it sound like we've been thinking of it the same way since it's invention and it's.. [drumroll]... time for a change.


We will think even more about controlling the amount of light (photons) reaching the camera sensor than thinking that ISO setting some how controls this. It does not.

But more of that later....

Why later?? What is this, a serialised release of a new novel in a Sunday newspaper? Are you trolling or what?
 
Well at this rate we'll never get to the end.

I'm someone who's keen to learn anything from anyone, but I still don't know what point you're making.

I suspect I'll have lost interest long before I learn anything here.
 
If you chose to make them so, yes.



Profound. What next, you going to patiently explain to use that the Earth is not in the centre of the solarsystem? The way we think about photography has always been changing. You make it sound like we've been thinking of it the same way since it's invention and it's.. [drumroll]... time for a change.




Why later?? What is this, a serialised release of a new novel in a Sunday newspaper? Are you trolling or what?

I do enjoy these erudite, constructive and mature contributions... :clap:
 
I do enjoy these erudite, constructive and mature contributions... :clap:

Well... come on...

You could Just wait to the end and add your poo poo's then. :)


Why? Why not just make your point??? The end of what? Your thesis? The World.. what? He made the first post at around 9pm yesterday, and apparently he still hasn't finished writing it... LOL.
 
Well... come on...




Why? Why not just make your point??? The end of what? Your thesis? The World.. what? He made the first post at around 9pm yesterday, and apparently he still hasn't finished writing it... LOL.

Perhaps people keep interrupting?
 
Perhaps people keep interrupting?

With 24 hours between instalments.. what do you expect? Are we meant to respond, or wait? :thinking:
 
OK... I'll drop by sometime next week to see if he's finished making his point.


:cuckoo:
 
In painting terms, it would be a bit like the difference in working with oils or acrylics. Both demand different techniques, both need to be properly understood if the results are to be good. The mistake comes in insisting that one is better that the other. It isn't, but it is different.

This!
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with zen like posts personally.

It's an interesting point about sensor technology and how it works more like a pushed film than a changing sensitivity film.
 
I don't think there is anything wrong with zen like posts personally.

It's an interesting point about sensor technology and how it works more like a pushed film than a changing sensitivity film.


I'm more intrigued by the concept of working on gathering of photons rather than the development of processing them once captured. I just wish he'd get on with it.
 
To speed things up a little now that I have established a base.
I will start to look at the ramifications of what I have so far covered.

First a recap... a sensor counts photons arriving at its surface. Not all Photons can be captured because the sensitive surface is neither continuous, unobstructed, or totally efficient. It also introduces noise, which you can think of as random false counts.

Even if a sensor were a thousand times more sensitive and efficient than the best today it could not count photons that are not there.

Sensors used by astronomers are already so good that they can accurately count individual photons arriving at very long time intervals.

To most photographers black means Zero photons (or the equivalent of pure carbon black. White is far more difficult to define But as an “output” it can not be whiter than a perfect base of magnesium oxide.(very White) However this says nothing about its illumination.

All this is translated in digital systems, to a maximum usable output tonal range Of O to 255 levels. (You can't perceive more distinct tones, so that is no problem in itself

Your Histogram can only show the counts of pixels representing tones between zero Black and 255 white

Beyond that they can no longer be counted... they fall of the top... the sensor is fully saturated.

As Photographers we try to record an image that embraces the widest range of tones that we can see or want to be seen. (not necessarily all that is there). This very statement demonstrates that exposure Is not necessarily right or wrong, it is chosen to capture a particular range of tones.

This question of tones of the range between 0 and 255. brings us to a major difference between Analogue(film) and Digital and demonstrates a serious problem area.

Any continuous tone film records a near infinite number of tones between its maximum black and white, our eyes can not differentiate between them. But they are usable.
You can take any part of a continuous grey scale, covering black to white and expand that section (contrast) to match the whole, so that it too goes from black to white.

In Digital that is not true, the scale is fixed between 0 and 255
True you can take the file into Photoshop make a selection and an adjustment curve to change the contrast (as above for Analogue)
But the necessary data (Numbers) are not there, and you introduce discontinuities which are visible as vertical lines in your histogram. This represents lost data (detail), lost quality that can not be recovered. You scale would no longer contain all tones.

This is not a digital feature I would want to be with out, it is very useful indeed, But like most digital manipulation it is destructive.

This is the first instance, so far, that demonstrates the importance Of a “Good capture” Over later digital manipulation.
I am avoiding the use of “correct Exposure” as often the cause of needing to micro manage local contrast is poor lighting not exposure.

Break for Lunch.....
 
But turned on it's head, is there any benefit in treating ISO not as a pre-determination, whilst ever the camera firmware kicks out an image based on that choice?

Photography has always been about controlling the amount of light that creates the image, But we can only control what's available to us. So we used more responsive film where light was lower - we use higher ISO's for the same reason.

The film didn't control the amount of light - just the same as the sensor doesn't. The choice of ISO allowed us to deal with the light we had then as it still does now.

Those are all good points
But changing to higher ISO does not change sensitivity of the sensor.
The light captured by the sensor is no different what ever the ISO set.
The same number of photons are captured and counted.
 
In Digital that is not true, the scale is fixed between 0 and 255
True you can take the file into Photoshop make a selection and an adjustment curve to change the contrast (as above for Analogue)
But the necessary data (Numbers) are not there, and you introduce discontinuities which are visible as vertical lines in your histogram. This represents lost data (detail), lost quality that can not be recovered. You scale would no longer contain all tones..


That's only true for a 8bit per pixel (24bit) image. There's no rule that fixes a digital image at 256 discreet tones per pixel. a 16bit image has 65536 discrete levels available. Your point?
 
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That's only true for a 8bit per pixel (24bit) image. There's no rule that fixes a digital image at 256 discreet tones per pixel. a 16bit image has 65536 discrete levels available. Your point?

As yet 16 bit images are an intermediate stage. Computer and printers do not display at that level. Even Photoshop shows only 256 in its Curves palette when working at 16 bit, (which I always do.)

Few cameras work at more than 10 or 14 bit and interpret from there. The out put is usually 8bit.(24bit)

Any thing is possible in the future but the difference in processing power and storage is highly significant.
 
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People seem concerned about how many “Stops” a sensor can Capture... may be in the future it will exceed that of black and white film... at this time, any thing over 10 stops seems good 12 excellent. However even a run of the mill APS sensor does as well as a transparency film, and we had no problems accommodating those limitations in our workflow.

The chief worry to most of us is the question of noise, we are far more worried by it than we ever were by “Grain”. Fast film used larger halide grains and the “Gaps” between them is what we saw as graininess. We could ameliorate the problem by using a “Physical” developer formulation which softened the edges, but graininess was a fact of life which we soon learnt to make a feature of.

Noise is some what different. It is more like the background tint on film, always there, but only noticed when the lowest image density falls close to it.
The proportion of noise is greatest at the lowest photon counts. And is very hard to avoid at those levels. In sound recording we had “Dolby” to reduce hiss and rumble. Digital cameras use increasingly complex algorithms to do much the same thing.
However at very low illumination levels the photons fail to provide sufficient data for acceptable image quality.

The solution is always the same, provide more light (exposure/intensity). The ISO setting does not help at all. This is quite different thinking to Film.

I suspect we shall eventually use Lux meters ( set to the native sensitivity of the sensor) to determine ISO free exposure settings. And only be concerned that the lowest and highest tone values that we require, are with in the scope of the sensor. Raw file produce straight line responses where equal changes in light produce equal changes in tone... Un like a conventional "S curve" It makes little difference which section you choose for processing as no tones are lost by prior compression.

We will “Expose to the Right” to ensure that the highlight registers are not over saturated and that there is maximum separation of middle tones... as raw shooters do today. But will choose our mid tone, and position and shape of the ”S Curve” at the processing stage. We will make no reference to ISO at all.

This will, in a wide range of circumstances, allow us to freely choose shutter speed and aperture for their particular preferred qualities provided the two functional criteria are not breached... the maximum loading of the highlights and the minimum acceptable noise.

“ISO” if thought about at all, it will become a function of output Processing. (which In reality it already is.)

This does not sit at all well with conventional thinking about exposure. But is a descriptor of what is already happening in the background.

However in this new digital context, it clarifies the alternatives and returns them to the control of the user.
 
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As yet 16 bit images are an intermediate stage. Computer and printers do not display at that level. Even Photoshop shows only 256 in its Curves palette when working at 16 bit, (which I always do.)

Few cameras work at more than 10 or 14 bit and interpret from there. The out put is usually 8bit.(24bit)

Any thing is possible in the future but the difference in processing power and storage is highly sugnificant.

Photoshop DOES work in 16bit. It uses the same 8bit API when in 16bit mode but the breakdown of the histogram you refer to does not happen with a 16bit image (well.. technically it does, but at a much higher resolution, so it's not actually visible). The problem is that to make a API for 16bit image with over 65,000 discreet levels would be a nightmare to use, and not really necessary.

Most camera can produce a 12 bit image now, which is 4096 discreet levels.... that's per pixel remember... so a 12 bit image can be adjusted across all it's colour channels in 6,8719,476736 discreet steps. You really think you need any more than nearly 7 billion (70 billion if you're American) levels of adjustment to maintain the integrity of a histogram during adjustment?

Or am I missing your point?
 
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If it concerns you this way then why not return to analogue ? Digital photography is merely a facsimile of analogue photography. An application of analogue to digital conversion. At present I cannot see an economic driver that will foster the creation of the technology that will return to you the tones that are currently missed during ADC conversion. Digital is incredibly convenient but it does, currently, have it's limitations. There is a very strong argument in favour of analogue photography, if only because it provides reliable access to uniqueness of artistic intent and consequent intrinsic value of the end result.
 
As yet 16 bit images are an intermediate stage. Computer and printers do not display at that level.

I missed this....


Photoshop in 16bit mode.... Quadra card via display port = 12bit... hardware calibrated Eizo ColorEdge monitor = 12bit. Going off the weakest link in that workflow chain, it can produce, edit and display at 12bit depth... so that's nearly 7 billion colours/tones. Actually display them... and that's far more than my eye can perceive.

You're also working on the principle that an analogue image is actually analogue.. technically it's not... silver halide crystals are either black, or washed away... they vary in size, shape and clumping, but in reality, a mono analogue image is actually just 2bit per "pixel"
 
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