How long is too long?

LeeP

LeeP

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Lee
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I've been reading a lot of threads recently about non-paying clients and feel I could be in the same position.

Scenario:

Client calls me a couple of weeks before her Wedding saying she's in need of a photographer who can work to their tight timescales. The Wedding wasn't pre-planned and was a 'spur of the moment' action I later found out.

I agreed that I could take on the commission and went down my usual pre-shoot meeting, explanation of contract, fees, got the list of shots etc.

I met with the local church and did some familiarisation as I hadn't been to it before and all was going great.
The Wedding shoot itself went great - super response from Bride/Groom and all their family/friends.

Great.

Then it starts to slow down ...

I give them their honeymoon period and, as per usual, I have posted small proofs of all of my edits for their selection.

They had gone for a very budget package and only had 40 prints included in the price with a selection from about 200.

The following week, I give a courtesy call to ensure they'd received them and that all was going well with them and to plan a date / meeting to discuss the selection and options.

Client wasn't available at all that week (not evenings of weekends or through the day) but would be the following week - would I call back then?

So I call the following week, same answer. I didn't mind too much...

It's now on the fourth week of 'we're too busy' ...

I live only 4 miles away from the client and have told them any time is convenient and i'll only be an hour at the most. I need their selection before I can obviously process the album...

So - how long is too long? I was paid 50% deposit before the wedding and receive the final 50% on completion (+ any additional print charges etc).

Have I shot myself in the foot? My T&C's don't have any statement in them for a time-period / cooling off period before the final order, but usually I am sorted within 2 weeks of the honeymoon. I feel like i'm being strung alone ....

Thanks for any advice!
 
must be tempting to "drop in" unannounced
"I was passing..."
 
mmcp42 said:
must be tempting to "drop in" unannounced
"I was passing..."
Click to expand...

I had considered it - but they have been returning my calls / messages, but say they're busy. I wouldn't want to go against that as then it looks like i'm being too pushy.

If they weren't returning calls then sure!
 
Sounds like you've been more than patient with them. I'd give them a deadline that you're happy with, say another week, and let them know that if you haven't received their selection by then, then you expect the balance of payment. You could say that if, at any time in the future they would like to give you their selection you'd still be happy to supply them but you can't be expected to be kept waiting for payment any longer.
 
You have been let down by your T&Cs (which need sorting). I would submit an invoice for the balance with a 7 day payment period and include a polite and friendly covering letter saying that they are welcome to submit their order for the prints/etc. as their convenience. Seeing the invoice might give them the focus they need to get it sorted. Equally they might be hoping to wait until after Christmas because of the added expense of this time of year...
 
I'm guessing from reading this thread that the couple have recieved no pictures yet as you haven't spoken to them. If this is the case I'm sure they would be wanting them especially as they have already paid 50%. pxl8 maybe correct that they are waiting til after Xmas. If your terms has anything to say that pictures will only be kept on file for a period of time, I would remind them of that if it gets close to your timescale for keeping them on file. If you don't mention that, I'd just swet it out. They have already given you 50%, the wedding was a last minute thing, they may have underbudgeted, and need to earn some more money before they can payout more.
 
i wouldnt worry too much. we had one client who,d payed the full fee up front(all ours do).
we sent a reminder email and a letter 4 MONTHS after the proofbook was sent out.no reply
we filed the cd and forgot about it.
12 MONTHS after the wedding they contacted us (VERY SHEEPISHLY) and said
"can we still have our album?" we said "of course you can"
two weeks later, album was delivered. since then weve had £200 worth of reprints from them. WEIRD.the reason.
"oh , weve been realy busy":eek:
surely if theyve paid a chunk up front, they,ll want pics at some point. as suggested, theyre probably skint aproaching christmas.be patient.
 
I really wouldnt worry ... although being someone who has indeed just got married, I find it strange that they are too busy !!
I suspect that rather than too busy, they are skint and are waitinfg a little bit of time before they can find some cash. I would find it extra ordinary if a couple did not want photo's of their 'special day' I would not push too hard just yet, word of mouth, if you need it for weddings is pretty crucial...
Having 50% upfront to me indicates keeness to complete.

On the flip side, I got married on the 29 September and haven't had any shots back from my tog yet!!!
 
chewyuk said:
On the flip side, I got married on the 29 September and haven't had any shots back from my tog yet!!!
Click to expand...

You're just saying that so we don't get to see them :suspect:
 
LOL.

Thanks for all the advice guys. I'll gently remind them in a week, offer them to put it on the back burner til after Christmas as that's *likely* to be the reason I hope!

Cheers :)
 
Full payment up front is the only way to go.
Why should you wait for your payment? I bet you would feel differently if you had been shooting in medium format film, and had the outlay costs of all that goes with that.
I bet everyone else has been paid.The caterers,church,cars,suit hire,printers etc.
I'm afraid the nice guys in business don't tend to last.
A nice polite friendly invoice.After all, you don't want to fall out with them because you want to flog a few prints.
I'm gonna order 2 new D3 bodies from Calumet,I wonder if they will let me pay for them later when I have a bit more spare cash lying around....
 
Well - the couple never got in touch in the end.
Have reason to believe they print-screened the images (with a watermark over the front) and printed themselves.

I put together a stern letter requesting payment but heard nothing. Letting this one go as a lesson learnt.

Last 2 weddings have been payment for services and album up front - prints additional once images chosen. No problems whatsoever.

Cheers guys :thumbs:

Lee
 
Sod that, take the ******ds to court! you earned it make them pay up. If you let one customer get away with it they'll all try it on. I've a friend who owns a tv shop and he gets tough on 'anyone' who doesn't pay no matter how small the amount, even the council. In Scotland we have the sheriffs clerk, it costs very little to do and the onus is on the other party to prove that they don't owe the money. In England it would be the Small claims court,
 
time to do a drop in if i was you and hand deliver the invoice and you can say they have 7 days to pay before you seek legal assistance.
 
I had a customer who kept giving me excuses for non payment ( non photographic) of services. After 3 invoices including a final ( pay up or else) I still got nothing. Then I followed the Small Claims Court procedure and sent a pre court letter ( similar to...

Dear ******
[Reference]
Further to my letter of [date], to which you have not replied, I now write to inform you that, unless I receive your satisfactory proposals for settlement of my outstanding claim within seven days of the date of this letter, I intend to issue a claim against you in the county court without further reference to you.
Yours sincerely
etc)

Obviously you need to change it to fit your circumstances.
Google Small Claims Court and all will become clear.

I got my outstanding payment within 2 days!

Worth a shot, you shouldnt be working for free!

Allan
 
allanm said:
I had a customer who kept giving me excuses for non payment ( non photographic) of services. After 3 invoices including a final ( pay up or else) I still got nothing. Then I followed the Small Claims Court procedure and sent a pre court letter ( similar to...

Dear ******
[Reference]
Further to my invoice of [date], to which you have not replied, I now write to inform you that, unless I receive your satisfactory proposals for settlement of my outstanding claim within seven days of the date of this letter, I intend to issue a claim against you in the county court without further reference to you.
Yours sincerely
etc)

Obviously you need to change it to fit your circumstances.
Google Small Claims Court and all will become clear.

I got my outstanding payment within 2 days!

Worth a shot, you shouldnt be working for free!

Allan
Click to expand...

Thanks very much for that Allan.
 
allanm said:
I had a customer who kept giving me excuses for non payment ( non photographic) of services. After 3 invoices including a final ( pay up or else) I still got nothing. Then I followed the Small Claims Court procedure and sent a pre court letter ( similar to...

Dear ******
[Reference]
Further to my letter of [date], to which you have not replied, I now write to inform you that, unless I receive your satisfactory proposals for settlement of my outstanding claim within seven days of the date of this letter, I intend to issue a claim against you in the county court without further reference to you.
Yours sincerely
etc)

Obviously you need to change it to fit your circumstances.
Google Small Claims Court and all will become clear.

I got my outstanding payment within 2 days!

Worth a shot, you shouldnt be working for free!

Allan
Click to expand...


Do this.
 
Everyone is right here saying that you should not let them get away with not paying. Similar thing happened with me ages ago, but was not a photographic thing. I ordered a large quantity of wine through a wine club I was a member of for a guy who was a friend of a friend (of a friend really). He paid upfront for 60% of it and told me he would give the rest to me on reciept of the wine. I was too trusting and went along with it. Anyway a few weeks later, when I had called him a few times to give it to him (with no response) he told me he no longer wanted the wine, and he had got in contact with his bank, and the payment had been cancelled.

To cut a long story short, I got ripped off and had loads of wine I didn't even really want! At the time I thought I would just learn from it and not do it again, and just wrote the money off. It was a pretty large sum of money, but I didn't have the time to chase it up or anything. Anyway a few months later I had a financial problem, which had I have recieved the money from the wine would have not been problematic, but it resulted in a big problem and lots of stress. Sorry to bang on... :lol:



Remember not only are they owing you money, but they have also commited copywrite infringement on your images! I think with the threat of the small claims court you will get your payment :D
 
This sort of thing really p**** me off, from what you have said they have got some great photos from you but now had the audacity to try and print them off thereselves, i had something similar happen to me although it was,ent a wedding, it was an engagement party, i,ve learnt my lesson from it though, but as everyone else has said definately take them to the small claims court and get whats owed you, good luck with this and be sure to keep us updated with how you get on, i for one would like to know the final outcome.
 
LeeP said:
Well - the couple never got in touch in the end.
Have reason to believe they print-screened the images (with a watermark over the front) and printed themselves.

I put together a stern letter requesting payment but heard nothing. Letting this one go as a lesson learnt.
Lee
Click to expand...

Unless there is additional information that you've not posted it seems that you are presuming they have printed the photos themselves - even if it's obvious, without proof I wouldn't make an accusation of such just in case.

Perhaps before going legal you could send a final letter (recorded) indicating discretely that you would be willing to accept a payment plan to settle the balance and also a payment plan for prints etc if required.

It could be possible they are struggling financially and perhaps not unfair to assume they may be too embarrassed to admit such - that is unless you know something we don't?

It would also go in your favour to show that you've offered them alternative ways to pay should it end up going legal.

I think it's obvious what's going on but you know what the law can be like and it's best to show you've gone through the motions and covered all reasonable methods of recovering the debt first.

I would stress that this would be your final letter before going legal and perhaps detail the associated fees and interest etc should that happen.
 
Makes no difference if they have printed them or not, i think you still have a claim.
 
tel48 said:
Makes no difference if they have printed them or not, i think you still have a claim.
Click to expand...

You can't claim for copyright breach if it's not happened. He will only be able to claim for the principle and related statutory compensation and interest on the principle.
 
That was my point, he can go after the principle debt plus a fixed statutory compensation fee on this and interest on this. But I still think he should make a final demand with the threat of legal but also giving the option for a payment plan - just to cover all the bases.

His choice but if it does go to court and he wins and they are in financial difficulty then they will most probably be given the option to pay by instalments anyway except the only difference will be that he could be making an already difficult time even worse by adding in legal fees, interest etc.

When people are under financial strain it's quite common for them to ignore their creditors hoping it'll go away. Of course
if they are loaded and are just trying to pull a fast one then ignore all I've said and go straight to legal ;)
 
I agree. You should always make an offer of reasonable repayments in pre-court action, then it makes you look reasonable to a judge :)

A reasonable offer should be somwhere between 10-25% of the final amount per week/month, depending on the amount, in my opinion, erring towards the side of 25%. Thats not based on any legal thing whatsoever, just my opinion of reasonable :)
 
I'm wondering that what if the situation did pan out with them paying it up over four instalments...this could be good for reputation as the couple would probably speak highly of him with his reasonable actions but could this come back and bite him where the sun doesn't shine with couples they've referred him to thinking they could take the same liberties? :thinking:

Or am I starting to look into this far too much? :)
 
Guys

Thanks for all your posts. Been interesting reading.

The couple in question had told me in Jan they were struggling financially to be able to afford it. They promised and booked a meeting early Feb. They never turned up.

I called / text (they work irregular hours so was the primary way of contact). Sent a further letter advising them of the outstanding balance to which this was ignored.

However, I think one final letter before taking it to the next level will go in my favour. Perhaps talk about an easy payment plan (perhaps with a slight premium) and split it over a couple of months so it's convenient?

I'll have a think about it tonight over a glass of wine and see how we get on :)
 
The pre court letter asks for " satisfactory proposals for settlement of my outstanding claim"
The idea is to get them talking to you. If they are in financial difficulties, this would be their opportunity to let you know. How you arrive at payment would then be a matter of negotiation with the threat of an appearance at Court to help them concentrate. ( with credit status implications! )
More than likely, they are pulling a fast one thinking there is nothing you can do to get the money from them.
I would leave the copyright / theft of images alone, its a rocky path to tread when you have no real proof what they have done with the photos they have.
Hope you get a satisfactory solution.
Allan
 
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