HOW HUNGRY ARE YOU TO IMPROVE?

EdinburghGary

EdinburghGary

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How hungry are you?


Serious and deep question I guess. I am just wondering what lengths people are going to in an effort to get better, and ultimately how hard will you try to get to the top of your game?

Do you aspire (as I do), to be the next Joe Cornish, Colin Prior, Ansel Adams, *insert X photographer here*? Does that make you deluded? Is it wrong to think you are capable of getting that good, or at least emulating that greatness? Is it wrong to want to be that good?

Is it wrong, to try so hard - that your hobby becomes an obsession, and one which in reality, costs you much more than any hobby *should*? And I am not just referring to money. Time with friends, family, time doing other no photography things - missing that balance in the quest for photographic excellence, is it all worth it?

I have no illusions about my current ability and skill level. If it has reached a mere 3% of the level of the gods I mentioned in the first paragraph, I would be chuffed. I can't even see that first rung on the ladder, let alone grasp hold of it. I might be able to get some nice photos, with whizz bang colours, excellent sharpness, semi decent (but somewhat lacking) compositions, which for a lot of us, will be acceptable. But what would Cornish, Prior and Adams say if they reviewed my work? It scares the bejesus out of me to think!!!

I don't know where I am going with this. I guess I just want to know, who else sees this as a constant (but fun) battle to get better, and better. Do any of you dream of opening a gallery and selling your work, do you dream of releasing best selling photographic books, and just making a name for yourself? Is it WRONG to want to be that much of an egotistical nutter and see your name up in photographic lights?

Maybe it's a form of subconscious escapism from the chains that tie is down to what I consider "being average". Being average sucks, no one wants to be average, and that fight to be special is something which should drive us all in my opinion.

One last, less wishy washy question. I know there are guys here who have galleries, books and have more or less nailed a fantastic career out of photography. You are hero's to me. My simple question for you, if you take into account the current make up of the photographic skillset on this forum, and try and get a feel for the overall attitude of the aspiring amateurs...what *MUST DO's* are we all ignoring?

Things like:

* Photography course at UNI
* Specialist training days with the pro's (not for fun, ONLY because it WILL benefit your knowledge)
* Any *Must Read* books
* You tell me!!! :)

I mean surely there is more to it, than buying the latest digital cameras and lenses, and learning as you go, in your own. There has to be things we are not doing which will teach us things which are VITAL to that growth into an expert in the field, a professional.

Sorry for the mega rant.

Gary.
 
I want to be the best at everything which generally means I'm quite good at most things but excellent at none.

I wish you the very best of luck on your quest Gary.
 
Merovingian said:
Isn't experience missing from that list. Must partly account for many pros' current positions - it does in other vocations.

Completely.
Click to expand...

Not wanting to be nit picky, however, I said
"I mean surely there is more to it, than buying the latest digital cameras and lenses, and learning as you go, in your own." :)

Only a fool would think buying a digital camera (full stop), would make you a pro.

Experience, of course - it is of huge importance. I guess the question could be, whats the best way to build up that experience then?

Gary.
 
Gary,

Great post and I think most photographers strive to improve. But, much like other creative medium, there are people who can simply just do it. I dont think this should discourage people from trying. Guitarists all over the world sit in bedrooms learning Metallica note for note but the true genius is writing it.

And for the record, your photography has come a long way. Here on the forum, in my eyes, Luke Woodford is the most naturally gifted photographer I have seen arrive here in the last couple of years and in time, I think could be major talent.

Some photographers are better than others in subject. Some see natural light, others master fake light and it is always worth finding a nichce I think.

As for must do, just getting out there and shooting is needed, but sometimes it is worth stopping, watching and listening.

Pete.
 
Interesting question. I think when you are doing anything you have to aspire to doing it better or differently, there has to be an aim, so no I don't think it's wrong to think in such a way.

Personally, having been doing this for nearly 30 years I think I know where my level is which is someway behind Adams, Bresson et al. In fact when I look at work produced by people who've been doing it for a very short time I am often very impressed and I use such examples to inspire my own photography. Occasionally I get lucky and take a good picture :) and if it pleases me it counts as a good picture, if others also like it, it's a bonus.

I've given up the equipment race years ago. My current equipment is adequate for my level, it would be different if I was a pro. I need a couple of lenses that's all and thanks to you maybe a 2nd hand Mamiya 645 and a nice scanner ;)
 
Two years ago I had a pretty good year, unexpectedly selling quite a few shots, winning a national competition and getting quite a few other shots into publications/newspapers so last January I decided to push myself a little more and took some tuition and entered the POTY comp on here.

I took a ten week course at Blackthorn school (http://www.photography-courses.com/) which was great. Simon Young is a fantastic tutor.

And the POTY comp on here is a great learning curve, with several people on here being very helpful. I think if you look at my scoring from last year that I improved month after month.
 
I'm not even confident enough in myself to aspire to those things :p
 
Well Gary, there is nothing wrong at all with trying to be a better photographer, but if photography is a hobby rather than a career, then I think the main point is that you take enjoyment from it, although it is as you say costly financially.

I won't mention any names but I know of one photographer who is only too happy to go out shooting to get away from his missus, but he is a much better photographer than me and at least he's rewarded with some decent images.

I would love to be the next Joe Cornish, but I know that's never going to happen. I have been taking photographs for 25 years or so and even today I will try and find some way of improving my shots - can't say I'm always successful mind you.
 
I didn't read the whole post because I just woke up but...

I dont want to be famous but I want to be the best.

I also don't want to be mega rich, I want to make £60,000 but not more because of VAT unless its alot more.

Its fun for me to want to be the best because it means im searching for the "it" shots and I belive im better because of the way I think.

I also havn't done any of the things you mentioned, like photography courses and stuff. Doesn't mean I just picked up a camera though. This place is better than any photography course. Also being self tought isn't easy, I have worked my arse off to get where I am so far, it very nearly cost me my relationship but it paid off.

Also I don't think anyone can just pick up a camera and become a photographer, when I was chatting to this local photographer she said I definately had "the eye", the ability to see a shot beofre you take it. I have been thinking alot more about that recently when im taking shots, I especially noticed it when I was doing my "taken from a moving train shots", I saw thngs coming and very quickly thought about composition etc. I don't htink you can teach the natural ability of the eye but you can train it, or maybe through practise it can come over time.

Ok time for some breakfast.

Im going to add something here, its also good to be inspired by other photographers, Pete Carr has been a big inspiraition, not just for his work but for having a book out and stuff. Also most recently this guy on flickr has inspired me with the homeless stuff.EDIT: I left out weddinghack- massive inspiratin on the wedding front.
 
Diego Garcia said:
Gary,

Great post and I think most photographers strive to improve. But, much like other creative medium, there are people who can simply just do it. I dont think this should discourage people from trying. Guitarists all over the world sit in bedrooms learning Metallica note for note but the true genius is writing it.

And for the record, your photography has come a long way. Here on the forum, in my eyes, Luke Woodford is the most naturally gifted photographer I have seen arrive here in the last couple of years and in time, I think could be major talent.

Some photographers are better than others in subject. Some see natural light, others master fake light and it is always worth finding a nichce I think.

As for must do, just getting out there and shooting is needed, but sometimes it is worth stopping, watching and listening.

Pete.
Click to expand...


Thanks bro, you wrote that while I was writing mine. We must shoot together some time!
 
EdinburghGary said:
Only a fool would think buying a digital camera (full stop), would make you a pro
Click to expand...
Dig deeper on here, you'll find that attitude.

As for experience, it must surely differ for everyone. Horses for courses and all that. Know how you could build it up for portraits, but not sure how you'd build it for landscapes.
But here & the internet must be an invaluable resource.
 
I think my answer will differ from a lot of posters here.

Personally I'm not hungry for getting better, I take photographs because I enjoy it and to record the places I have been and the things I have seen; although I'd like to do this is the best way possible and for other people to say 'wow, that looks cool'. I have little or no ambition apart from that and to have something nice to look back on.

Despite not being hungry for getting better I am enjoying the natural osmosis of being here and gathering new techniques, asking for advice on how I could get a shot better next time and the social interaction.

Does this make me lazy about photography, the answer is probably, does it make my work sloppy, probably, will it preclude me from being a master photographer, almost definately, but because I take this as a source of fun rather than a competition (even in internal one) this prevents me from becomeing frustrated and giving up :D

MB
 
There's no doubt that it is a constant battle to get better and better.

When I look back at my often pathetic efforts of 25 years ago, which I thought were good then, it's almost embarrassing! But almost every time I took the setbacks and the disappointments as stimuli to improve.

I'm very much more choosy about the pictures I take now. I can come back from a good session and know that I've got some pictures of publishable quality. I may not be in the same league as the photographers you mention, but I've got a bit of a reputation round yer (as we say), and on a moderate scale I've done some of the things that you mention as your goals.

And do you know what REALLY spurred me on to be "successful"? It was the knowledge that, up until then, in most aspects of my life, I'd been a failure. For me, there was no question about it - I just HAD to succeed. I knew I had a good eye, and it was up to me to use it.

Not that one ever gives up trying to better, or more successful, or better known. Those goals still keep me going. Often I wish I could just give up, but I've no other way of earning a living now. I must be quite unemployable!

Don't believe for one moment though that when you reach a certain level of success that everything will be "fantastic". I sit at my wondow now looking at yet another dull day and wonder if I'll ever be able to get out and take some pics. And you DO have to make sacrifices, like your social life, for example!

Read books and magazines, look at other photographers work, attend courses (if you can afford them...), they'll all help. A college course would probably introduce you to another way of seeing altogether.

One thing that I think many photographers could do more is get to know their subject matter. I spent some time with a very well known and very good landscape photographer, and I was surprised that he appeared to know so little about the landscape. He understood it in a visual sense, of course, but not its inner workings. I guess we're talking ecology and the environment here, by the way.
 
Hi Gary,

An interesting post. And one that strikes a bit of a chord with me because I feel somewhat consumed by it at the moment. Wanting to improve and wishing I had more time to shoot. Thinking about it when I'm at work (like now for instance). When I'm out and about - thinking wow, that would make a great shot. I see great photographic opportunities everywhere, I'm just wondering when I can turn the vision into reality.

I do feel driven to improve and learn and apply. I find myself reading books, but have learned the most when I have the camera in my hands and am out shooting. I'm currently trying to learn my camera inside and out. It's a bit boring, but a neccessary step for me I think. I don't want to be distracted and taking my eye from the viewfinder if I can help it. If the situation changes, I want to be able to know where everthing is, what it does and adjust instinctively.

As for the question about whether it's wrong to try so hard... well I think that depends on what your commitments are and what your goals are. If you see yourself doing it professionally, then getting to the top of your game should be a priority imho. That's just hard work and commitment. And yes, an element of sacrifice. If it's to remain a hobby, there's nothing wrong with being passionate about it, but I guess one would have to find a balance. No kind of obssession is healthy.

There's also nothing wrong with trying to emulate greatness and be inspired. That hunger for success is what drove the all the greats, whatever their field. Athletes, composers, artists or photographers. Don't give up and don't stop shooting. I agree, being average sucks.

Not sure if any of that rambling above made sense or if it was the sort of response you were even looking for... maybe I've just had too much caffeine. :D
 
I must say that I agree with Pete about Luke, I have also been watching his work improve since he joined the forum and think he also has something else that is required - confidence and the hunger to succeed.

I love my photography and want to improve and find that this forum is great for getting different ideas to try out and new techniques but I don't have the hunger to be perceived as the very best or famous. I think that would bring pressures that I can do without and might decrease my enjoyment in my chosen work.
 
im hungry wanna get some shots?
 
WOW! Interesting question Gary. I have one answer to the landscape question. To be a good landscape tog you have to be quite mad. I remember reading David Notton's accounts of scaling mountains day after day at 2am for a week just to get one shot. So yes there does have to be that element of "dedication" (read madness to one who likes her bed far too much!) You have chosen an undoubtedly difficult field to work in but I do see a lot of improvement in your work over the last year.

Do I strive for something similar? Well yes, I do. I'm always looking for shooting opportunities and I'm learning not just how to see light but how to get the camera to record it the way I see it. That's the tricky part with photographing people. Sometimes. as someone else mentioned, that is using natural light and sometimes I have to introduce my own light and it's knowing when and how to do that that has also taken some time.

And as for the cost of improvement? I've just been doing my accounts and although I forecast it and I'm on target it's still showing red! But it will get better........I've forecast it so it will happen! :)
 
There are I think two sides to this particular coin.The first is technical ability with the equipment at ones disposal.This is relatively easy to acquire.The second of course is creative ability.I suspect that the majority of (but not all)toggers go with the flow in as much as they set up the equipment and just see what happens.For sure they are trying to take the best pic possible--but they are probably concentrating on getting it right technically.The talented photographer is much more in control of the whole process.Seeing the shot wanted before it is taken---having ideas that they want to capture on film---looking for opportunities to maximise those ideas and translating them to a finished product.They will take an artists approach to what they do and I for one envy them that ability.Artistic talent is difficult if not impossible to teach but there are plenty of courses out there that teach the principles.
 
AliB said:
I have one answer to the landscape question. To be a good landscape tog you have to be quite mad. I remember reading David Notton's accounts of scaling mountains day after day at 2am for a week just to get one shot. So yes there does have to be that element of "dedication" (read madness to one who likes her bed far too much!) You have chosen an undoubtedly difficult field to work in but I do see a lot of improvement in your work over the last year.
Click to expand...

A guy I used to work with loved landscape photography, but it was all about the planning, the early starts then the chance you wouldn't get the light, mist, the effect, the shot...

You're quite right - mad... :D

Luben's stuff is here: worth a look.
http://www.solev.net/wordpress/
 
You see, I am a bit of an insomniac and I DETEST sleeping in. I find 4am starts a doddle, 3am I could easily do. All nighter? Not a problem. Nothing excites me more either, get up at 3, and have literally an extra 5 or 6 hours of life compared to a lot of regular sleepers...

And Landscapes is where I ultimately think my passion is. Closely followed by People and Street. But focusing on Landscapes - it requires so much more than just pitching up at a random location with the camera. So so so much more. You need to understand weather, seasons, light, the play of shadows and highlights in your landscae - to get the best, you need to revisit, and completely absorb that location, time and time again. This is something I have NEVER attempted, that obsession over a specific location. Take Elgol. Skye. Somewhat cliched, but what a location!!! TO get the best of it though, soooooo many things to consider. Is it normal, once you understand the seasons and best time for light etc - is it normal to go, and literally wait on that beach, for a week, in the hope of a perfect shot?

Think about what that means. An entire week - and what happens if you even slightly fluff the composition? What happens if you are stupid and use the wrong film, or you somehow wreck it on the digital.

I could do the wait, and I would enjoy it. I am also in a position to do it, workwise. I could easily obsess over one photo, for a month if I had to. I enjoy the challenge. The trouble is, I don't feel I am sufficiently skilled to justify that kind of attitude yet.

Gary.
 
ShawWellPete said:
Not us hungry as you, although I wish I was. I wish I had more time to devote to photography but work and family commitments hold me back.
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now see if I said that to Gary he would say STFU and just come out!

But I am with you all the way its not that easy is it? Its like a healthy Diet, the 5 a day rule.

1= the kids
2= the wife
3=the house
4= work (well should be)
5= Photography


Michael.
 
My art teacher once said to me, "Some people are naturally gifted in art. Some people can just draw. But don't let that stop you. If you want to draw, you can be taught. If you want to paint, you can be taught."

While there are some people who are naturally gifted with an eye for composition, the ability to know exactly how the light is going to react on the sensor, have the final image in their head and know exactly what they have to do to get there, rather than take some photos and come out with something you hadn't anticipated, but is 'okay'.

Other people enjoy photography as a hobby, and while they would like to improve, a) they might not have the dedication and b) they might not have the time.

As far as becoming as great as the legends?
I don't feel it's something that can be rated.
Photography is entirely subjective. I've seen work which is far, FAR better than that of Dorothea Lange, but Lange's work will always stay in my head because she (as far as I know) was a pioneer in social documentary photography.
 
stressless said:
now see if I said that to Gary he would say STFU and just come out!

But I am with you all the way its not that easy is it? Its like a healthy Diet, the 5 a day rule.

1= the kids
2= the wife
3=the house
4= work (well should be)
5= Photography


Michael.
Click to expand...

That's actually a very cool "5 a day chart" !!! :D

For me it's

Work
Wife
Photography

Work, I do if and when I want
Claire, she understands my obsession mostly
Photography - I have the time, and the gear - just not the skill yet

Gary.
 
EdinburghGary said:
That's actually a very cool "5 a day chart" !!! :D

For me it's

Work
Wife
Photography

Work, I do if and when I want
Claire, she understands my obsession mostly
Photography - I have the time, and the gear - just not the skill yet

Gary.
Click to expand...


Oh yeah, the house. The fact I forgot to add it, is testament - it's a non issue. It takes care of itself a lot.

Gary.
 
EdinburghGary said:
That's actually a very cool "5 a day chart" !!! :D

For me it's

Work
Wife
Photography

Work, I do if and when I want
Claire, she understands my obsession mostly
Photography - I have the time, and the gear - just not the skill yet

Gary.
Click to expand...

Gary you do have the skill, when I first joined the forums I thought you were a pro. Seeing the first few shots you posted you definately have a raw talent. Maybe your problem is realising it?
 
EdinburghGary said:
Oh yeah, the house. The fact I forgot to add it, is testament - it's a non issue. It takes care of itself a lot.

Gary.
Click to expand...

does it **** not here anyway, right now I can see about 4 ton of lego, 400 hotwheel cars and 1 mile of track for them, 8 ton of ironing........oh **** im away out to take some photos............


Michael.
 
lukewoodford said:
Gary you do have the skill, when I first joined the forums I thought you were a pro. Seeing the first few shots you posted you definately have a raw talent. Maybe your problem is realising it?
Click to expand...

That's a lovely thing to say, and perhaps I have some talent. I do NOT have the consistency to use it all the time then :D It can be hit and miss which is extremely frustrating.

Gary.
 
and this question all came about from this little picture

3019230348_6c14fca719_m.jpg


now I am away out.
 
EdinburghGary said:
That's a lovely thing to say, and perhaps I have some talent. I do NOT have the consistency to use it all the time then :D It can be hit and miss which is extremely frustrating.

Gary.
Click to expand...

You are a very talented photographer, but perhaps you're stuck against a wall?

I personally don't think you are, I'm always inspired and rarely disappointed in your work, but we all know what we are.

Perhaps you need a change in scenery!
 
stressless said:
and this question all came about from this little picture

3019230348_6c14fca719_m.jpg


now I am away out.
Click to expand...

Hahahaha!!!


Yup, ladies and gentlemen. That one photo you see here has cost me about £80K and resulted in me finding a burning passion I knew not existed within me.

I swear to god, he sent it by email and I had a D200 and bag of lenses within 3 hours. I had NEVER owned a camera.

Gary.
 
And can I add, that will always be one of the best photos I have ever seen as a result of how it has literally changed everything in my life. I cannot imagine waking up now without a camera being the single most important item I own. Its insane.

Gary.
 
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