neil_g
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fair enough, like i say this was many moons ago when i was but a nipper.
How do you react to your picture being taken without permission?
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fair enough, like i say this was many moons ago when i was but a nipper.
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Thats it mateAt least someone gets it. The reality is this is the real world. Not once did i say you should just walk up to a photographer and beat them to death i am saying that there comes a point that be it right or wrong in the yes of the law things (with me at least) would end up with force being used.
This is of course in the extreme worst case situation. I get to fight everyday on the mats so have no need for pointless fights but if its needed then its needed.
Perhaps you could have considered leaving yourself if you were that upset.
I'm not against your point of view, I just don't like "thuggish" behaiour and people taking the law into their own hands over such a little thing.
There is nothing to get about using violence in this scenario.
Thr reality is people are to quick to take offence and believe violence to be the answer.
for Neil
I studied Shotokan when I was younger. My sensei through out one member for attacking another school kid over a girl. The morals drilled into us included "respect others" and "to refrain from violent behaviour".
I reiterate I don't have a problem with people asking politely for someone to stop.
I do have a problem with people that feel violence has to be the final answer.
That is wrong simply wrong.
If we want to use "rare" examples to make a point re "paedos" how about the paedeatrician beaten up in 2001 because someone couldn't tell the difference between paedeatrician and paedophile.
asphotographymk
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Because as i have already said a few things the law says you can take photographs in public at no point has anyone questioned that but that does not mean it is right to. I have also already explained why in my situation photos of my family would be a safety issue. The issue is not a legal one it is a moral one. There is no law in taking photos of people in public and the police are there to enforce the law and would do nothing. H
Lindsay D
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That suggests they are harassing you and your family (and are causing distress) to the extent where you feel the need to take measures to protect yourselves - in which case they probably are doing something wrong. In an extreme situation like that the police should and no doubt would deal with them. Given it's a person with a camera the police may well detain him on suspicion of wrong-doing or being a P**** - this happens quite often to photographers, even when the situation doesn't remotely warrant it.
Going back to the OP, the photographer got the message and went away before any polite intervention was required, and it sounds like he was nothing more than an over-enthusiastic amateur, so would not fall into the category under discussion.
asphotographymk
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I think its time to agree to disagree here as the thread is going a little off subject and into silly extremes.
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joescrivens
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if photos of you and your family are such a legal issue then why is it so easy to see them on your facebook pages?
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Bet your a nice chap in real life but you are making yourself out to be a complete ahole
That strikes me as a little uncalled for - and also a case of pots and kettles
There are always going to be two schools of thought on violence - those who belive that its sometimes justified and those that believe it never is
Having been a soilder (v. breifly), night club security, a contractor and trained martial arts (though not to the level of andy and tony, and only breifly due to a bike crash) it probably doesnt come as a massive suprise that I fall into the former group.
I would say though that in my case (and i suspect andy etc are likewise) violence is always a very much last resort, when I've tried reason, I've tried walking away, i've tried calling the police, I've given fair warning, and someone still persists in an unacceptable behavior then I do believe that a measured and proportionate ammount of physical force is justified.
That said I apreciate that not everyone agrees and I make no judgement of those who dont share my position , and all i'm asking in return is that those who dnt agree with me equally respect my position without judgement (calling someone a thug , or conversely a coward, or indeed an ahole, is not within acceptable forum ettiquette)
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I'm usually the first to defend the police but I have to say my experience was not this positive - with regard to the stalking case i mentioned originally (the one where the stalker was photographing my then girlfreind, photoshoping her face onto porn and posting them arround her work place, and distributing "call for hot sex talk" cards with her number on arround phone boxes in unsalubrious areas) the police actually did very little - they spoke to him and he basically denied doing it and they couldnt do anything else, it wasnt their fault , just one of those things that come from their hands being tied.
In this case I eventually braced him and after i got his attention I explained robustly that i found his behavior unacceptable and that he jolly well better stop it or i'd be very very cross (this isnt an exact description of what went down i recall there being rather more words that I can't use here) and the stalking stopped imediately.
This is only tangentilally related to the OP , but the point is (apart from my point above about extreme situations requiring extreme measures) that just because most people with a camera are doing nothing wrong it doesnt automatically follow that absolutely everyone is.
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asphotographymk
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I dont have any on my facebook pages.
asphotographymk
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The truth is my experience with the police has always been pretty negative in what they see as small cases. They normally talk to both partys both have separate storys they they do nothing more.
As you said in an ideal world and in most cases the photographer and person questioning the photographer would have a nice chat. If this was not waht happened then more measures may need to be taken.
Lindsay D
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I understand your views Pete (even though I firmly disagree with the mention of violence in the context of this thread). The stalker you described sounds like complete scum - who I agree deserved the 'talking to' that you gave him given the very real danger he might well have posed to your friend, particularly as the police could do little or nothing to help. But as you said, that doesn't really relate to what is under discussion here.
However, as I've said the police do appear to be robust when it comes to taking a hard line with photographers (innocent or otherwise), so if one were silly enough to repeatedly photograph the OP despite all reasonable requests to stop (in this scenario there is no threat to the family member's person, the issue is one of annoyance) then the cops would probably automatically treat him like a P**** - likely a far worse fate than a smack in the mouth, and the OP (or whoever) wouldn't end up with a criminal record. I also understand why some people use violence as a last resort in very extreme situations (and perhaps I would if terrorized, harmed, or facing serious injury or death) - but that is not what we're discussing in this thread. Violence absolutely should not be an option just because a photographer is being a *****.
gingerjon
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You are Derren Brown and I claim my £5.
asphotographymk
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Yep i second that... I would be formating his card..
Its called taking his camera off of him and deleting them. Which i would do
gingerjon
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Or you could react the same way as someone who I wasn't taking pictures of and who I hadn't even seen who leapt in front of my camera as I was taking a test shot in London the other evening and who started shrieking, "I've got a nice bum, reasonable rates!"
This was at 5.15pm and he was smartly attired in a business suit. If you need to know why the economy's screwed it's because it's run by people like him.
This was at 5.15pm and he was smartly attired in a business suit. If you need to know why the economy's screwed it's because it's run by people like him.
gingerjon
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I could only do that with a Nikon. I've no idea how Canon menus work.
asphotographymk
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Haha yes me to.... Dam it Canon users. :bang:
joescrivens
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i think you need to change your privacy settings, its very easy to see all your friends and wife and see their pics on facebook
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I didn't in fact call anyone a thug. I said the act of hitting someone over a photograph would be thuggish behaviour. I would call anyone that picked on someone, causing physical injury when there is no need to a thug, but as it hasn't happened yet I have no need to.
asphotographymk
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I only use my facebook for business so don not have any images of my wife or family. I dont understand your point. Here my facebook. Not much to see. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100001352532785
joescrivens
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So this isn't you:
Links removed
You can access all of their friends, but if it isn't you and just your double then you have nothing to worry about I spose
Links removed
You can access all of their friends, but if it isn't you and just your double then you have nothing to worry about I spose
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asphotographymk
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Yes but like i said. What images of my son can you see on either pages. As i said i dont have any? Searching the name to find my wife clearly wouldnt be hard now would it as we have an unusual name. And When did i ever say i dont want people to know who my wife is or who my friends are and why would i care?
But no i do not appreciate links to my personal profile and the profile of my wife being posted on a public forum...
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joescrivens
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Look back through your posts you mention photos of your family being something that needs to be kept secret not just your son. The point is I'm posting that to show you it's very easy to see pics of your family as you can access all of your friends and a quick scan of some ofthem shows they have pics of you on their profiles, you need to go to your privacy settings and remove your friend list so that can't happen.
And I will of course remove the links
P.s. You can also remove yourself from the search process on fb
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asphotographymk
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as i said what photos of my son can you see? I have said in several posts it is images of my son i would not like. Mostly my son and wife together and me and my son together is what would worry me. As they could then link me to him and that would be a problem. I also have no images of my wife that you can see on my page other than my profile image so your point is not valid. Of course if you search our surname you will find her as there are not many Warner-simpsons but that does not mean you can see any images of my son, my wife is an adult and can choose what images she posts up it happens we have both chosen to not have any of our son . I am going to step out of this conversation now as its way off track and will continue to do so.
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joescrivens
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Agree it's going off track. Just to alert you to probably change your privacy settings as you can see photos of your family from your friends. Change your settings to avoid it.
Anyway, back on topic
boliston
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I'd probably be more annoyed by someone approaching me and asking for permission than simply taking a quick "street candid".
As a rule I don't like being "approached" on the street, as usually it's someone trying to sell me something or someone doing a "survey", so if someone approaches me saying "excuse me......" my usual reaction is to ignore them/keep walking.
As a rule I don't like being "approached" on the street, as usually it's someone trying to sell me something or someone doing a "survey", so if someone approaches me saying "excuse me......" my usual reaction is to ignore them/keep walking.
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With the paranoia that some people seem to have I'm surprised they leave their house.
Surely if you are unhappy that you think someone is taking your picture the answer is to go up to them and explain and ask them to delete the pictures and if necessary explain why. The threat of violence would have the opposite effect on me and I would want to keep the pictures as evidence of who had threatened me.
It's a shame when people think violence ahead of polite requests.
Surely if you are unhappy that you think someone is taking your picture the answer is to go up to them and explain and ask them to delete the pictures and if necessary explain why. The threat of violence would have the opposite effect on me and I would want to keep the pictures as evidence of who had threatened me.
It's a shame when people think violence ahead of polite requests.
Johnnybugs
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you have to leave the house, becuase if you stay there you are continualy harrased by people calling the phone trying to get you to by a more expensive TV package / windows, upgrade your mobile phone or calling at the door wanting to wash the windows.
this whole world seems to be obsessed with harrasing people at the moment
I cannot believe the outright agression exhibited by a minority on here. I do not know if it is bravado or genuine, but it is worrying, particularly as a few posts have come from someone who has a martial arts/ex doorman background, who would resort to extreme violence even when not being threatened.
As someone has correctly pointed out, people lay bare their lives on FB for everyone to see, but then get angry when someone takes a photo of them because it is infringing their privacy.
We live in a perverse World.
As someone has correctly pointed out, people lay bare their lives on FB for everyone to see, but then get angry when someone takes a photo of them because it is infringing their privacy.
We live in a perverse World.
As a matter of interest, what do people think, when there is a TV broadcast of sports - football, golf, tennis, and the cameraman (on a live broadcast - no permission asked or granted) decides to focus on a cute child, maybe swinging a little golf club off to one side, or having a nap, or dressed up in club colours chearing on their favourite team?
Is that OK or do the producers get floods of complaits afterwards, that they are invading the privacy of the children concerned?
Is that OK or do the producers get floods of complaits afterwards, that they are invading the privacy of the children concerned?
Byker28i
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And this
Image if everyone did the same:
Lange had just completed a month-long photographic assignment and was driving back home in a wind-driven rain when she came upon a sign for the camp. Something beckoned her to postpone her journey home and enter the camp. She was immediately drawn to the woman and took a series of six shots - the only photos she took that day. The woman was the mother of seven children and on the brink of starvation.
After returning home, Lange alerted the editor of a San Francisco newspaper to the plight of the workers at the camp, presenting him with two of her photos. The editor informed federal authorities and published an article that included Lange's images. As a result, the government rushed a shipment of 20,000 lbs. of food to the camp. The photos' wider impact included influencing John Steinbeck in the writing of his novel The Grapes of Wrath.
Mary Ellen Mark, Margaret Bourke-White, Robert Frank, Vivian Maier, Gary Winogrand, Milton Rogovin. More recently Gillian Wearing's Broad Street.
Sophie Calle springs to mind as someone I feel going over the top for art, but Joe hit the nail on the head here way back on page 2 (it's a shame it went a little off topic and downhill after that). If your photography interacts and makes people feel uncomfortable then that's something photographers should be aware of. It's easy to get lost in the moment of making the image, concentrating on the mechanics, the light etc, but the subjects, even if inadvertent, need to also be considered.
OP
cjevans
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I did say earlier - I was at the beach with my kid - not looking to get into something with someone else, I wasn't that bothered - it was the event that made me think of the topic - I actually teach ethics at A-level and am more interested in responses from that angle than any other. I did not get the feeling (as already stated) that the person was up to no good so I didn't bother to do anything more than I did but was more interested in the view of others.
OP
cjevans
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And it's really time to stop when once again I find myself agreeing with Joe
Interesting topic though and hopefully has made a few people think. It'll be interesting to see the OP's thoughts on the discussion.
Going going back through all the comments - have been a bit busy the last couple of days - thanks all for participating
asphotographymk
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I think you exaggerating here and implying in someway i said i would walk up to any photographer who took a pic of me and beat the hell out of them. As i said there are always extreme cases. And when did i ever say i would resort to extreme violence. I also said on many posts that talking to them would always be the first option but if people are going to be disrespectful to my wished there becomes a point i will stop it.
Lets get right back on track anyway.
The situation the OP faced the photographer noticed the displeasure and moved on, i think this is what most would do.
Are there any people out there who would ignore the wishes of a parent and carry on shooting in this situation?
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Byker28i
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Edit: Meant to say welcome back and thanks for returning to the post
Interesting that you say now:
Yet in your first posts you said:
I am well aware of the law and that I was in a public area and so fair game but didn't like it. I gave a few disapproving looks and after the guy soon moved on.
It was the continuation AFTER with no contact that made me unhappy.
But thanks for the topic. It's given me something else to think about, I've learnt about a new photographer and put aside some groundwork research material for a later project.
Interesting that you say now:
Yet in your first posts you said:
I am well aware of the law and that I was in a public area and so fair game but didn't like it. I gave a few disapproving looks and after the guy soon moved on.
It was the continuation AFTER with no contact that made me unhappy.
But thanks for the topic. It's given me something else to think about, I've learnt about a new photographer and put aside some groundwork research material for a later project.
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cjevans
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I was unhappy about them continuing but I wasn't bothered enough to do something about it, I don't think that's unfair to say. I was unhappy by the service I got in a restaurant two day ago but didn't demand to see the manager or write a letter of complaint. I thought the example a good topic for discussion as I knew the mention of children would stir people up a little more...
