Hove town hall incident, civilian member of staff?

There are other cases in the U.K. where officers have been infected with Hepatitis and other diseases as a result of having blood spat on them.
I've found accounts of tense waits for confirmation of whether an officer has been infected or not, but no confirmed reports of transmission. Plus the following statement:

The Hepatitis C Trust and NAT (National AIDS Trust) have expressed concern about recent press coverage around the use of 'spit hoods' by police forces in the UK that has focused on their supposed value in preventing hepatitis C and HIV transmission.
http://www.nat.org.uk/press-release/hepatitis-c-trust-and-nat-respond-police-spit-hoods-debate

That the TB incident took place in the Ukraine is relevant on two counts, one because TB is far more prevalent in the former Soviet republics than in the UK and Western Europe, and that the incident is so unusual/rare that this appears to be the only confirmed incidence of transmission by the route mentions.

In the Mr Puck case it was indeed the lack of training and improper use that contributed. Used properly this shouldn't present any risk, as with so many things.
But your original statement was adamant that there was no risk whatsoever. Which is plainly untrue.


I'm very much in favour of the UK police - they're far better than those of many other nationalities (US, France, Germany), but I worry when they're given tools appropriate for specific circumstances but insufficient training to use them correctly. Emergency restraint belts are also being routinely (and incorrectly) used as spit hoods by several police forces. My real worry is that spit hoods and restraint belts become standard issue, and we start to see them used indiscriminately.
 
I'm not sure if PACE would have come into it as I don't know the full ins and outs, but that can be circumvented if the individual volunteers the material to police at the time.

PACE :


9 Special provisions as to access.

(1) A constable may obtain access to excluded material or special procedure material for the purposes of a criminal investigation by making an application under Schedule 1 below and in accordance with that Schedule.


13 Meaning of “journalistic material”.

(1) Subject to subsection (2) below, in this Act “journalistic material” means material acquired or created for the purposes of journalism.

(2)Material is only journalistic material for the purposes of this Act if it is in the possession of a person who acquired or created it for the purposes of journalism.

(3)A person who receives material from someone who intends that the recipient shall use it for the purposes of journalism is to be taken to have acquired it for those purposes.


14 Meaning of “special procedure material”.

(1)In this Act “special procedure material” means—

(b) journalistic material, other than excluded material.

SCHEDULE 1
Special Procedure


1 If on an application made by a constable a judge is satisfied that one or other of the sets of access conditions is fulfilled, he may make an order under paragraph 4 below.

4 An order under this paragraph is an order that the person who appears to the judge to be in possession of the material to which the application relates shall—

(a)produce it to a constable for him to take away; or

(b)give a constable access to it,

not later than the end of the period of seven days from the date of the order or the end of such longer period as the order may specify.
 
I've found accounts of tense waits for confirmation of whether an officer has been infected or not, but no confirmed reports of transmission. Plus the following statement:

The Hepatitis C Trust and NAT (National AIDS Trust) have expressed concern about recent press coverage around the use of 'spit hoods' by police forces in the UK that has focused on their supposed value in preventing hepatitis C and HIV transmission.
http://www.nat.org.uk/press-release/hepatitis-c-trust-and-nat-respond-police-spit-hoods-debate

That the TB incident took place in the Ukraine is relevant on two counts, one because TB is far more prevalent in the former Soviet republics than in the UK and Western Europe, and that the incident is so unusual/rare that this appears to be the only confirmed incidence of transmission by the route mentions.


But your original statement was adamant that there was no risk whatsoever. Which is plainly untrue.


I'm very much in favour of the UK police - they're far better than those of many other nationalities (US, France, Germany), but I worry when they're given tools appropriate for specific circumstances but insufficient training to use them correctly. Emergency restraint belts are also being routinely (and incorrectly) used as spit hoods by several police forces. My real worry is that spit hoods and restraint belts become standard issue, and we start to see them used indiscriminately.

If you misuse anything there's a risk - you can choke to death on a boiled sweet.

The hood used as intended, as prescribed and following procedures, it does not pose a risk, so my statement stands.

The Ukraine incident is a very good example of why these hoods should be used to protect officers, you only have to look at the Centre for Public Safety's report into the risk of contracting communicable diseases in the U.K. by being spat on https://www.centreforpublicsafety.com/assets/pdf/spit-guards.pdf
 
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So you are perfectly happy with the idea of unlawful detentions and searches then?
If it gets the job done, then yes. It's called the 'Ways and means act'.
 
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It's a pity this has drifted off into spit hoods etc etc. The thread is about public photography an in a photo forum not general.
 
It's a pity this has drifted off into spit hoods etc etc. The thread is about public photography an in a photo forum not general.

Always happens though doesn't it. It's the Internet :)

And unfortunately these post always draw in the V for Vendetta brigade.
 
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PACE :


9 Special provisions as to access.

(1) A constable may obtain access to excluded material or special procedure material for the purposes of a criminal investigation by making an application under Schedule 1 below and in accordance with that Schedule.


13 Meaning of “journalistic material”.

(1) Subject to subsection (2) below, in this Act “journalistic material” means material acquired or created for the purposes of journalism.

(2)Material is only journalistic material for the purposes of this Act if it is in the possession of a person who acquired or created it for the purposes of journalism.

(3)A person who receives material from someone who intends that the recipient shall use it for the purposes of journalism is to be taken to have acquired it for those purposes.


14 Meaning of “special procedure material”.

(1)In this Act “special procedure material” means—

(b) journalistic material, other than excluded material.

SCHEDULE 1
Special Procedure


1 If on an application made by a constable a judge is satisfied that one or other of the sets of access conditions is fulfilled, he may make an order under paragraph 4 below.

4 An order under this paragraph is an order that the person who appears to the judge to be in possession of the material to which the application relates shall—

(a)produce it to a constable for him to take away; or

(b)give a constable access to it,

not later than the end of the period of seven days from the date of the order or the end of such longer period as the order may specify.

Indeed, but what I'm saying is, if the individual is happy to let police see the material there and then to support their argument, PACE powers (or powers at all) won't come into it. I don't know if this was the case in this incident though?
 
Indeed, but what I'm saying is, if the individual is happy to let police see the material there and then to support their argument, PACE powers (or powers at all) won't come into it. I don't know if this was the case in this incident though?
But there has to be some reason other than just "photography" to stop people and question them and I struggle to think of many cases where that might be appropriate. As has been said earlier, in most of these incidents people would not have been stopped if they were using smart phones. Any terrorist worth his salt would be using a phone and probably posing others in front of the building they wee scouting if they even needed to do that given google street view etc.
 
Add that to the fact he was allegedly trying to film the dead bodies coming out of a fatal fire, possibly even of kids (to sell to media and make loads of money).

Dead bodies are dead bodies (not good) but why would it be worse if there were kids?

Taking pictures of & filming incidents, is what reporters do! (news?) It's a job.
 
If it gets the job done, then yes. It's called the 'Ways and means act'.


An attitude has has absolutely nothing to do with modern coppering.

All the non-existent 'Ways & Means' approach proves is that the person responsible is too ignorant to use the law correctly.
 
If there's really far too many
Name 20.
Hmm.. we've had this before on another thread, and there was a struggle to get two.
 
Indeed, but what I'm saying is, if the individual is happy to let police see the material there and then to support their argument, PACE powers (or powers at all) won't come into it. I don't know if this was the case in this incident though?


If we were talking about an average member of the public I'd completely agree with you.

However the thing that makes this case very different is that the victim in this case wasn't a member of Joe Public, but a press photographer, which confers on him very different rights.

There's a very good reason the journalistic material is classed as special procedure and that is to protect both the source (although that may change with the IPA 2016) and the person in question.

If we, as press photographers, hand over material to the police without protest, we put ourselves in danger.

Unlike writers, photographers have to be on the spot and in the action to get their images. That makes us vulnerable to accusations of being 'police spies' if our material is routinely used for investigation and prosecution.

It can happen in a wide variety of circumstances but public order is the most obvious and violent.

That is why any press photographer worth their salt will refuse to show a police officer their images on demand and instead direct them to acquire a court order.
 
Hmm.. we've had this before on another thread, and there was a struggle to get two.
I know...

It's like those pesky human rights everyone thinks are a complete waste of time, until you ask them which ones they'd be happy to forego.

It's fun :)
 
Or perhaps unlawful and illegal are different.

Are they?

Yes, they are different.

The former is something that is not permitted by law. The second is something that is specifically proscribed by law.

Subtle yet different.
 
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I know...

It's like those pesky human rights everyone thinks are a complete waste of time, until you ask them which ones they'd be happy to forego.

It's fun :)
Have pity on them tonight as they weep into their pastis..
 
Yes, they are different.

The former is something that is not permitted by law. They second is something that is specifically proscribed by law.

Subtle yet different.

Interesting. Thanks.

So, it is OK for police to do things not permitted by law.

As long as it's clear.

:)
 
The Ways and Means Act should be limited to the lateral application of lawful powers to achieve a desired lawful outcome - see Link

The misapplication of powers in an unlawful manner to achieve an illegal detention is not using the Ways and Means Act. It's being a dick.
 
If we were talking about an average member of the public I'd completely agree with you.

However the thing that makes this case very different is that the victim in this case wasn't a member of Joe Public, but a press photographer, which confers on him very different rights.

There's a very good reason the journalistic material is classed as special procedure and that is to protect both the source (although that may change with the IPA 2016) and the person in question.

If we, as press photographers, hand over material to the police without protest, we put ourselves in danger.

Unlike writers, photographers have to be on the spot and in the action to get their images. That makes us vulnerable to accusations of being 'police spies' if our material is routinely used for investigation and prosecution.

It can happen in a wide variety of circumstances but public order is the most obvious and violent.

That is why any press photographer worth their salt will refuse to show a police officer their images on demand and instead direct them to acquire a court order.

Quite right too, but on this occasion that didn't appear to happen. Did the photographer (not that they should have to) remind them of this and request they get a court order, or let them carry on in order to take advantage later?
 
Quite right too, but on this occasion that didn't appear to happen. Did the photographer (not that they should have to) remind them of this and request they get a court order, or let them carry on in order to take advantage later?

Yep he stated that they couldn't examine the images without a court order. One of the officers (a real one) then went off for twenty minutes and on return seized the equipment stating Sect 43 as his justification.

If that info came from a custody sergeant, then Sussex Police really have let their standards slip!
 
Yep he stated that they couldn't examine the images without a court order. One of the officers (a real one) then went off for twenty minutes and on return seized the equipment stating Sect 43 as his justification.

If that info came from a custody sergeant, then Sussex Police really have let their standards slip!

S43 TA would actually allow a search without a court order, which is why I suspect it was used, but of course they need reasonable grounds to suspect they're a terrorist which clearly under the circs in question, I can't imagine that being the case. I'm surprised at this TBH, using s43/44/60 TA 2000 has really been tightened up of late.

I'd be interested in the outcome of this.
 
Section 43 Terrorism Act doesn't outweigh PACE (IMO), therefore it was an unlawful search - even ignoring the fact that there was no way that it could stand up to the 'reasonable suspicion' test.

The Terrorism Act 2000 doesn't provide a waiver for PACE conditions.
 
Many police officers get drunk on a power trip and get the " I must be obeyed" head on a

I have to agree with this, there are many excellent police officers but a few that like the job too much , on Friday I watched a police van drive at speed through a very busy city centre with a lot of pedestrians about , he narrowly avoided a collision with a car that rounded a corner as he went straight on , stopped at the entrance to a shopping centre, sat in the van for 20 seconds then sauntered over to an incident that looked like it was over 15 minutes ago because there were 3 coppers and 2 paramedics patching somebody up.
 
I have to agree with this, there are many excellent police officers but a few that like the job too much , on Friday I watched a police van drive at speed through a very busy city centre with a lot of pedestrians about , he narrowly avoided a collision with a car that rounded a corner as he went straight on , stopped at the entrance to a shopping centre, sat in the van for 20 seconds then sauntered over to an incident that looked like it was over 15 minutes ago because there were 3 coppers and 2 paramedics patching somebody up.


...and if he'd been called in as a custody wagon?
 
Section 43 Terrorism Act doesn't outweigh PACE (IMO), therefore it was an unlawful search - even ignoring the fact that there was no way that it could stand up to the 'reasonable suspicion' test.

The Terrorism Act 2000 doesn't provide a waiver for PACE conditions.

Parts of it can in certain rare circumstances In a proper terror incident, (sometimes the police don't have time to wait for court orders). It's powerful legislation which is why policies were tightened. However, this wouldn't fall into that and I doubt they'd justify going outside of PACE.

Either way they've ballsed up big time.
 
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I have to agree with this, there are many excellent police officers but a few that like the job too much , on Friday I watched a police van drive at speed through a very busy city centre with a lot of pedestrians about , he narrowly avoided a collision with a car that rounded a corner as he went straight on , stopped at the entrance to a shopping centre, sat in the van for 20 seconds then sauntered over to an incident that looked like it was over 15 minutes ago because there were 3 coppers and 2 paramedics patching somebody up.

I'd imagine he was transport for the prisoner. Can't see evidence of a power trip with that.
 
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Hate to say it, but the real reason most photographers get stopped is more to do with public "envy" of the equipment and a desire to try and make your life difficult because they perceive you as rich - which 99% of the time is wrong - and can be really annoying. The important thing to do though is not loose your temper, and instead deal with it rationally, which may be what has gone wrong in this case.
 
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The police have had another addition to thier arsenal in that anyone going to court now even if found not guilty can only recover legal aid rates which no solicitor will work for. Costs for a solicitor (simple case) on a not guilty plea is £600 - £1000.

You get found not gulty and you still have to pay out around £400. So you have to represent yourself.

pc plod knows that. :jimlad:
 
Hate to say it, but the real reason most photographers get stopped is more to do with public "envy" of the equipment and a desire to try and make your life difficult because they perceive you as rich - which 99% of the time is wrong - and can be really annoying. The important thing to do though is not loose your temper, and instead deal with it rationally, which may be what has gone wrong in this case.

No. No it isn't.

Not sure if this post is for real or not...
 
The police have had another addition to thier arsenal in that anyone going to court now even if found not guilty can only recover legal aid rates which no solicitor will work for. Costs for a solicitor (simple case) on a not guilty plea is £600 - £1000.

You get found not gulty and you still have to pay out around £400. So you have to represent yourself.

pc plod knows that. :jimlad:

Again, nothing to do with it and police wouldn't give it a second thought. They're not going to deliberately break the rules, break the law, risk their jobs, potentially make an unlawful arrest, pervert the course of justice by getting the CPS to agree a charge, so that it gets dropped in court so the person has to pay a solicitors bill?? See how ridiculous that sounds?
 
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Like I said some posts back, this just looks like a clash of ego's

I have had some "conversations" with police in my time and each time the matter was quickly dealt with by using some good old common sense and because of this a good natured conversation was had about photographers rights and the law
 
Ok I've snipped and left in the relevant parts of your post.

This is BS.

The police cannot arrest "anyone they see necessary". There is strict criteria for an arrest and it has to be met. Police can arrest for *any offence* now in effect, but the reason for arrest HAS to be one or more of the following things (following the offence);

- Ascertain the persons name
- Ascertain the persons address
- Prevent physical harm to self or another or suffering physical injury
- Prevent loss of or damage to property
- Prevent an offence against public decency
- Prevent an unlawful obstruction of the highway
- Protect a child or vulnerable person
- prevent any prosecution being hindered by the disappearance of the person in question
- Allow a prompt and effective investigation of the offence or of theconduct of the person in question.

Whilst some previously non arrestable offences can now be arrested for under the above circumstances, a lot more offences that were arrestable now become non arrestable as if none of the above applies you can't arrest and the person would then come to the station voluntarily. So actually, it could be argued they have less power. Work that out.

Please post evidence of the increase in complaints due to the change in law. That just isn't true. In fact complaints overall have gone down.

As for spit hoods, these are in use and have been roiled out for normal use by a lot of forces and quite rightly. Why should an officer be spat at and receive nasty communicable diseases such as aids, hepatitis, etc just for doing their job and trying to protect the public?? How can you tell if they're going to spit?? Well, perhaps they've already spat a glob of blood filled sputum at you or your colleagues and is intent on continuing to do so? That would be a pretty good indicator. And there is NO risk to an individual by having one placed on their heads. Again, their use is regulated and it has to be justified and recorded after their use, you can't just put these on anyone. Recently the first police death occurring as a direct result of catching a communicable disease by being spat on was recorded. So yes, they are a necessity evil enforced on us by society.

And taser (as it's spelt) isn't to replace or use against someone using a firearm. It never has been intended for that, and You would never use a taser for this (for one thing, you can only use it within a very short range), you'd use another firearm. They can be used in any situation the officer decides as long as it's justifiable and proportionate, exactly as if the officer was to use their baton or CS spray. It's a very useful tool and used by police, airline stewards and security worldwide, but the UK has the strictest restrictions on use. Remember here were talking about police officers, who deal with very violent individuals on a daily basis, not primary school teachers, a little perspective goes a long way.

What has the Police Federation got to do with anything? They are independent of the police and a separate organisation set up to support officers. They have no sway with regards to how officers are disciplined or set up of complaints procedures, they are just there to support the rights and welfare of officers if a complaint is made against them or they are subject to an investigation. Believe me, when officers are subject of a complaint, professional standards departments are ruthless in their attempts to prove the case, even if it's malicious against the officer. I'm sure if the Polfed could instigate a fully independent process for complaints they would. But again I'm not sure why the Fed have been brought into this thread.

I try to avoid posting in anything that becomes an anti police tirade, but reading rubbish like this is starting to get my goat.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/07/police-complaints-soar-england-and-wales

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10311365.Taser_guns_wanted_for_all_frontline_cops/ .

Quote by Chairman of hampshire police fedderation.He said: “I know there will be a small element of the public that will be concerned but the evidence clearly shows that Tasers prevent serious injury and the alternative is being shot with a lethal weapon. It’s a less lethal option that society rightly demands.”

There it is we need Tasers because it is an alternative to being shot. I remember the police claiming that when they were asking the government for them.

An increase of over 1200% between 2012 and 2016 in "whats driving us" courses issued by the police and the courses are run by retiered police officers. The courses don't seem to be working with an increase in bad driving at that level. Unless something else is going on of course.

https://ndors.org.uk/trends-stats/

Most of these small offences would not have ever gone to court prior to the introduction of these so called "safty course" and the police know it.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35170779

Bring back the 70's :bat:
 
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/oct/07/police-complaints-soar-england-and-wales

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/10311365.Taser_guns_wanted_for_all_frontline_cops/ .

Quote by Chairman of hampshire police fedderation.He said: “I know there will be a small element of the public that will be concerned but the evidence clearly shows that Tasers prevent serious injury and the alternative is being shot with a lethal weapon. It’s a less lethal option that society rightly demands.”

There it is we need Tasers because it is an alternative to being shot. I remember the police claiming that when they were asking the government for them.

An increase of over 1200% between 2012 and 2016 in "whats driving us" courses issued by the police and the courses are run by retiered police officers. The courses don't seem to be working with an increase in bad driving at that level. Unless something else is going on of course.

https://ndors.org.uk/trends-stats/

Most of these small offences would not have ever gone to court prior to the introduction of these so called "safty course" and the police know it.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-35170779

Bring back the 70's :bat:

It's only an alternative to being shot as it's non lethal. You would never deploy taser against a firearm, you deploy an officer with a firearm for that.

Those complaints are all because of the change in SOCA 2005 are they? There's no mention of that. Complaints dropping - https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/tech...-93-percent-after-deploying-body-cameras/amp/

But it depends what you read.

Why have you added links with driver awareness courses? I fail to see the relevance?
 
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Quote by Chairman of hampshire police fedderation.He said: “I know there will be a small element of the public that will be concerned but the evidence clearly shows that Tasers prevent serious injury and the alternative is being shot with a lethal weapon. It’s a less lethal option that society rightly demands.”

There it is we need Tasers because it is an alternative to being shot. I remember the police claiming that when they were asking the government for them.

I hate to put it this way, but you are showing your complete ignorance.

Jim said
And taser (as it's spelt) isn't to replace or use against someone using a firearm. It never has been intended for that, and You would never use a taser for this (for one thing, you can only use it within a very short range), you'd use another firearm. They can be used in any situation the officer decides as long as it's justifiable and proportionate, exactly as if the officer was to use their baton or CS spray. It's a very useful tool and used by police, airline stewards and security worldwide, but the UK has the strictest restrictions on use. Remember here were talking about police officers, who deal with very violent individuals on a daily basis, not primary school teachers, a little perspective goes a long way.

ie a taser is for short range use (under 3-5 metres) and in no way shape or form would you use it against someone with another firearm.

That however does not mean the same thing as the quote from the PolFed rep. They are used to great effect against violent criminals wielding other weapons (such as knives and swords) that would have required the use of either firearms or police dogs to quell them in the past.
 
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Please can we not make this a general police bashing thread?

This is about a specific incident where procedures were (really quite badly) screwed up.

It most certainly doesn't reflect on the police in general.
 
Again, nothing to do with it and police wouldn't give it a second thought. They're not going to deliberately break the rules, break the law, risk their jobs, potentially make an unlawful arrest, pervert the course of justice by getting the CPS to agree a charge, so that it gets dropped in court so the person has to pay a solicitors bill?? See how ridiculous that sounds?

It looks like your well out of touch.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...n-legal-costs-acquittal-perjury-phone-hacking

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/30736...-was-cleared-of-shooting-burglar-in-the-foot/

You like many other people don't realise how things have changed. As you say "See how ridiculous it sounds" it does. But it is happening.

https://www.driving.co.uk/news/ministers-slam-brakes-costly-speed-awareness-courses/

Police far too much power. They have forgot they are public servants and become "the law" instead of inforcing it. Power corupts.
 
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