hope soneone can give me a few ideas

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Just got myself a 24inch softbox and shoot through umbrella to use with some speedlites, can any one give me some pointers as to the best way to position them, going to try it out on my kids. After alot of googling I can find pointers on softboxes and umbrellas but none on using them together, I also have a White backdrop.
Thanks in advance
 
Possibly because they both have roughly the same effect on the light, so certainly to begin with you would use one or the other and different light shaping tools to add extra effects. On my way out and I am no expert but a quick idea might be to use the softbox to light the backdrop and the brolly for the subject in head and shoulder shots, but be careful for light spill from the box. :)

There are loads of lighting experts round here who will have more imaginitive ideas I am sure
 
Thanks for reply, I was going to go with 2softboxes but read in a post of garrys to go softbox umbrella route and use umbrella as a fill, without wanting to make myself sound too silly but I've no idea where to position each eg 45 deg to each side of subject or should I put one more behind subject for backlight or ............... Suppose I could just play about with it but I just don't know where to start
 
Yes, just play with them and find out what works and why.

But a good starting point would be to place the softbox high, close and exactly in front of where your subject is looking - this will help to define the shape of the face.

Then, and only if necessary, place the umbrella where the camera is (same level, lower or behind the camera) as fill, set it to the lowest possible power setting and take a shot. Then experiment by increasing the power of the fill light gradually until you're happy with the results.
 
Thanks garry, sorry slightly confused with the fill light, so do you mean as close as possable to me but pointing up towards the subject to lift shadows?
 
A 24" softbox is pretty small, so it needs to go as close as possible to the subject if you want the light to be even fairly soft.

The whole idea of a fill light is that it needs to light all of the subject as seen by the lens, so it needs to go where the lens is. As the key light will be high (well, that's what I suggested anyway) the the fill light needs to be either level with the lens or below - it doesn't need to point upwards as the light will spread.

My usual position is just behind me. If it's big enough it doesn't matter that I block part of the light with my body as long as it's nearly touching me.
 
The whole idea of a fill light is that it needs to light all of the subject as seen by the lens, so it needs to go where the lens is.

All a fill light is is a secondary light used to soften/lighten shadows caused by the key light without overly affecting the overall lighting. As long as it serves this function it can go anywhere.

There certainly isn't any need for it to light the whole of the subject nor for it to go where the lens is.
 
All a fill light is is a secondary light used to soften/lighten shadows caused by the key light without overly affecting the overall lighting. As long as it serves this function it can go anywhere.

There certainly isn't any need for it to light the whole of the subject nor for it to go where the lens is.
Not so.
A fill light illuminates all of the subject as seen by the lens.
A second light certainly doesn't need to go where the lens is - for example if the key light is on the right then the second light can be on the left, but it's then another 'sun', not a fill light.

Or, if the subject is facing somewhere other than towards the camera then the second light can go where the camera would be if camera was where the subject was facing and some people call that a fill light - and it is, up to a point - but as the 'fill' light isn't where the camera is, it doesn't fill in all the areas seen by the camera and so isn't a fill light.

It isn't necessarily wrong, and sometimes somewhere else can be the best place to be it - but it isn't then a fill light.
 
Not so.
A fill light illuminates all of the subject as seen by the lens.
A second light certainly doesn't need to go where the lens is - for example if the key light is on the right then the second light can be on the left, but it's then another 'sun', not a fill light.

Have you a reference for this narrow and specific definition of a fill light then Garry?

None of the texts I've read or indeed gaffers I've worked with have ever referred to a fill as anything other than the definition I gave in my post above and I've only ever come across one other photographer with such a rigid concept of fill lighting.

Also, the idea of a 'second sun' is nonsense. Bailey is reputed to have said "There's only one effing sun" but then he was also reported to have stated that his favourite light was 'available light' as in he'd shoot in any light that was available.

Photography has moved on a great deal since Bailey's heyday when shooting with a single light was common place. Besides, until the world is made of nothing but surfaces that absorb all light that strikes them, natural light will always be multi directional. When Bailey walks down the street light is bouncing off every surface it hits to varying degrees. Replicating that multi-directional nature of light in the studio, be it with lights or reflectors, is as natural as shooting with natural light alone.
 
Have you a reference for this narrow and specific definition of a fill light then Garry?

None of the texts I've read or indeed gaffers I've worked with have ever referred to a fill as anything other than the definition I gave in my post above and I've only ever come across one other photographer with such a rigid concept of fill lighting.

Also, the idea of a 'second sun' is nonsense. Bailey is reputed to have said "There's only one effing sun" but then he was also reported to have stated that his favourite light was 'available light' as in he'd shoot in any light that was available.

Photography has moved on a great deal since Bailey's heyday when shooting with a single light was common place. Besides, until the world is made of nothing but surfaces that absorb all light that strikes them, natural light will always be multi directional. When Bailey walks down the street light is bouncing off every surface it hits to varying degrees. Replicating that multi-directional nature of light in the studio, be it with lights or reflectors, is as natural as shooting with natural light alone.
I don't think that definitions matter that much, except that it helps if everyone understands what is meant when people use a particular term or phrase.

But, if it helps, Wikipedia does agree with 'my' definition. So does the free dictionary, I think the important thing here is the explanation that a fill light lightens shadows without altering the character of the key light.

The style of photography has changed since Bailey made his mark - but it should perhaps be remembered that Dave Bailey (later David Bailey later Bailey and later Bail) basically re-defined people photography, AFAIK Bailey was really the first heterosexual working class fashion photographer, the first to shoot with one light, the first to shoot 'punk' style and the first to go out of his way to deliberately make controversial statements that upset the fashion establishment and gain publicity for himself - he was almost as good at self publicity as at photography.

His use of harsh light though was possibly as much due to the fact that when he started he didn't have the money to use more than one light as to the fact that he was trying to get noticed and maybe have a tip at people like Cecil Beaton. And the other very talented east end lads that he knocked about with, such as Brian Duffy and Tel (later Terry and later still Terrence) Donavon were much the same.

I wasn't with him when he made his often misquoted remark about available light, but I believe that he was just putting down a woman who questioned him about his approach to light, because Bailey was (and is) too good a craftsman to just take shots with whatever light happened to be there, he always put a lot of thought into controlling the light, whether it was studio lighting, flashguns or daylight.

My own approach to lighting is exactly the same as Bailey's and Donavon's (even though I don't have the same talent). I set up, always, with just one light and I use that light to define the shape of the face and to set the mood. Then I add any kicker lights such as hairlights, rimlights, backlights or whatever as necessary but only as necessary, and I then have a dramatic and punchy image. Finally, if necessary, I use an on axis fill to reduce the contrast created by the key light but without changing its character. That's how I teach it too, and it's exactly what I'll be teaching next Sunday on the Lencarta lighting workshop.

I appreciate that a lot of people do it differently, and use a fairly standard lighting setup with maybe 3 or more lights from the start, but my view is that's the wrong way of doing it and it's also the hard way and that's why I suggested to the OP
But a good starting point would be to place the softbox high, close and exactly in front of where your subject is looking - this will help to define the shape of the face.

Then, and only if necessary, place the umbrella where the camera is (same level, lower or behind the camera) as fill, set it to the lowest possible power setting and take a shot. Then experiment by increasing the power of the fill light gradually until you're happy with the results.
 
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I don't think that definitions matter that much, except that it helps if everyone understands what is meant when people use a particular term or phrase.

Well we'll agree to disagree there. Definitions are of absolute importance when it comes to technical terms. Without a common definition of a term you can't have everyone understanding what is meant by it, as by definition (pardon the pun) you've no idea whose definition you'd be working to.

Remember, most lighting terms come from the motion picture industry where a common language and understanding is vital on set. In photography, if you teach your own, strict definition of fill to your students they're going to then get confused if they read texts or lighting diagrams using the more commonly held definition. Also, by thinking of fill as only being on axis, they'd be restricted from experimenting and looking at other more creative lighting set-ups.

But, if it helps, Wikipedia does agree with 'my' definition. So does the free dictionary

No Garry, they don't. Your definition given in your posts above states that if the light isn't on the same axis then it isn't a fill light. Both these definitions actually agree with my thinking that the fill light can go anywhere as long as it's doing it's job of filling in the shadows.

Wiki state that a common position is on axis with the camera, which is entirely different to saying that it is the only position for it.

I think the important thing here is the explanation that a fill light lightens shadows without altering the character of the key light.

Absolutely, which is my definition of fill light.

The style of photography has changed since Bailey made his mark - but it should perhaps be remembered that Dave Bailey (later David Bailey later Bailey and later Bail) basically re-defined people photography

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pooh-poohing Bailey, his photography or is influence on it. Rather, I think that too much emphasis can be placed on something someone said at one time e.g. "there's only one effing sun!" Without the context of the quote, it's impossible to understand what Bailey was talking about. The closest I've got to find a source for it is it's referenced as coming from a Vogue article on Irving Penn, but I've only found that in one, anecdotal reference. The 'available' light quote is the same.

My own approach to lighting is exactly the same as Bailey's and Donavon's (even though I don't have the same talent). I set up, always, with just one light and I use that light to define the shape of the face and to set the mood. Then I add any kicker lights such as hairlights, rimlights, backlights or whatever as necessary but only as necessary, and I then have a dramatic and punchy image. Finally, if necessary, I use an on axis fill to reduce the contrast created by the key light but without changing its character. That's how I teach it too, and it's exactly what I'll be teaching next Sunday on the Lencarta lighting workshop.

I appreciate that a lot of people do it differently, and use a fairly standard lighting setup with maybe 3 or more lights from the start, but my view is that's the wrong way of doing it and it's also the hard way and that's why I suggested to the OP

That's fine, that's your approach, but you shouldn't be teaching anyone that any lighting set up is 'wrong'. Easier, more flattering, more dramatic, are terms that can be used but even these are subjective generalisations and should be taught as such. There's no such thing as 'wrong' in art, just opinion, and while some genres of photography have stricter guidelines and expectations, such as natural history, portraiture is one genre where beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder.
 
I think the important thing here is the explanation that a fill light lightens shadows without altering the character of the key light.
Absolutely, which is my definition of fill light.
We're at risk of sinking into semantics here, so my final word on the subject...

If we are agreed that a fill light lightens shadows without altering the character of a key light, then we must also be agreed that the fill light has to be on the lens axis.

If it isn't, it doesn't act as a fill.

And if it isn't, it alters the character of the key light.

I am NOT saying that the only light that works as an extra light has to be on axis to the lens - far from it. What I am saying, as per the movie industry, is that fill light is on axis fill
 
You both seem to be saying much the same thing to me... ;)

I might also add that I think things have changed. While I was taught along the old key-light/fill-in lines, that was becuase we used tungsten and the biggest light I had at the after-school camera club was about 18in if I recall correctly. It cast very hard shadows, even more so because it had to be used at a little distance due to the friggin heat, and a fill light was essential. Two or even three catchlights in the eyes were commonplace then (if you check you back issues of AP :eek:) and it never looked much IMHO.

Flash and umbrellas and softboxes changed all that. No need for a fill light, just a reflector at most. Big, soft, cool light, and SBs three feet wide you could practically stick up the subject's nose, and one big catchlight in the eyes with nice wide pupils :thumbs: I love that light (mostly) and I love the freedom of movement it allows for both subject and shooter - not exactly mobile perhaps, but certain fluid and not any of that camera/tripod business with the subject nailed to a chair.

I never use a fill light now. I got a ring-flash adapter, mainly for macro but thought I'd try it for portraits being on-axis an' all. Hated it! It added nothing, with my style of soft lighting - which seems to be most popular these days - but it made a mess of the catchlights.

Edit: agreement on photographic terms? That'll be the day! :)
 
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