Histogram

gumpractitioner

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glenn
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Is there an ideal portion of the histogram that skin tones should lie? For example I have been taking some portraits - normal caucasion skin and black hair against a white background and i can interpret where these tones lie on my histogram of a head shot. The black hair is noticable on the extreme left the white background easily noticable on the right but the skin tones [ithink] are also bunching to the right. Should these skin tones ideally be in the centre with normal caucasian skin? They look a bit dark with my light meter readings and i am trying to get the brightest colour histogram ( the red one) about half a stop from the right because I've heard that this produces thebest signal to noise ratio.
thanks
 
Aside from my original question, does this mean, then, that if I meter (with an icident meter) , say f8 for a head shot then i should really open up to f5.6?
 
Really quite new to this but does an incident meter suggest settings for 18% grey and if so then does the above make sense? I'm probably getting the wrong end of the stick?
thanks
 
If you take a reflected light reading off a 18% grey card you should close down a stop to put a caucausian skin tone in the right ball park. However I would be interested to hear a response to your original question as to the histogram
:)
 
an incident meter reading is the light falling on to your subject and is not dependent on 18% grey so what it says is what you set.
As for where in your histogram forget it you can’t see that much detail in the histogram. Also if you only looking at one, this is just the luminosity and if you was to look at the three then you would have to make sure you had it right in three places a hard job on camera.

All you need to do is expose to the right and get it up in the top end, to get max info
 
What was the original question?
Im not quite getting you but, If the skin looks dark then your underexposing it.

If you've been trying to push to the right and the histogram blows out on the right then thats probably the background ...like you haven't got enough light on the girls face, o,r to look at it another way the background is lit too much.

I think you've got the right end of the stick ...Yes a light meter reads 18% grey, and yes downing it up a stop to f5.6 will exposure more and push the histogram to the right..
 
If you are outputting straight to JPEG, then the best place for everything is when it looks right on the LCD. It should then print out, or display on your monitor, looking just as it was shot.

If you are shooting Raw, you can dabble with 'expose to the right' of the histogram by over-exposing (being careful not to blow important highlights) and pull everything back down again to the correct tones in post processing. The benefit here is that there is more detail recorded on the right hand side of the histogram so you will get more subtle tone separation in the highlights (the difference is slight, but it's there) but the main gain is that this technique drags the shadows up up the scale where even small increases show good increases in shadow detail.

Of course, the shadows darken down again when you darken the whole file to get the mid tones right for final output, but the image info is there if you are inclined to pull it out with a bit of subtle HDR technique.

Edit: crossed post with above. If you take an incident reading using an invercone, the meter will attempt to pin that light level in the middle of the histogram at the 18% grey level. This will be correct for a straight-to-JPEG output, but may not be ideal for Raw processing (or it might be, you have to decide).

Hand-held light meters are not absolutely reliable. They assume that the f/number is a dead accurate measure of actual lens transmission and it usually isn't. It's close, but there are a lot of variables that go on after the light hits the lens (innacurate diaphragm, vignetting, optimistic ISO). LCD/histogram/blinkies are by far the most accurate indicators of what the sensor has actually received and processed.
 
I'm really getting confused now - does an incident meter reading - from a Sekonic, say, produce a suggested reading based on 18 % grey?


Still learning!
 
Yes a light meter reads 18% grey, and yes downing it up a stop to f5.6 will exposure more and push the histogram to the right..

Only for reflective reading or in camera He was saying "if I meter (with an incident meter)"
I think he meant incidental reading
this has no bearing on any tone of grey
 
Hmmm!!! Although I've gone completely off at a tangent, now, based on my original question, I need to do some more reading on this subject!
How does an external meter, then, such as a sekonic meter - base its suggested numbers?
 
Only for reflective reading or in camera He was saying "if I meter (with an incident meter)"
I think he meant incidental reading
this has no bearing on any tone of grey

:thinking:

An incidental meter is giving exposure readings at a base of 18%, in effect replaces the grey card. (like your sekonic incident meter GP)

Thats the same thing 'end result' metering wise? isn't it.
 
Hmmm!!! Although I've gone completely off at a tangent, now, based on my original question, I need to do some more reading on this subject!
How does an external meter, then, such as a sekonic meter - base its suggested numbers?

My answer to your original question is that your histogram won't be much help if you use a blitzed out white background.

All that a meter does in reflected mode is to measure the amount of light reflected from the subject, or more accurately from the part of the subject sampled by the meter and 'scrambled'. It is unlikely to be an accurate reading because the meter 'assumes' that the subject reflects 18% of the light falling on it, which could be correct but usually isn't.
And all that a meter does in incident mode is to measure the amount of light incident upon (falling upon) the subject, so it takes no account of the reflectivity of the subject itself and is therefore likely to render all parts of the subject that receive the same amount of light at the correct tone.

Meters provide this data in the form of an f/number, e.g. f/11, to make it easy for the photographer to transfer the data to the camera - the reading could be in lumens or anything else, it's just that photographers find it easier to see the reading in the form of a number that they can set directly onto their cameras.

The reading is usually accurate, but as Hoppy points out there are other factors at play that may need to be taken into account and interpreted - just as data that we receive in other situations needs to be interpreted, not followed blindly - for example if I'm driving my car at 30 mph and see someone crossing the road immediately in front of me I need to act on that information, if the person is a mile ahead of me I simply note it and do nothing.
 
Hmmm!!! Although I've gone completely off at a tangent, now, based on my original question, I need to do some more reading on this subject!
How does an external meter, then, such as a sekonic meter - base its suggested numbers?

An incident reading is a measure of the light falling on the subject. It is usually shorthand for an invercone reading which converts that into a set of camera settings which peg the exposure so that an 18% grey tone falls in the middle of the histogram in a position where, based on the average film emulsion (for which it was conceived) so that it will have adequate dynamic range to accommodate average highlights above and average shadows below, according to an average scene.

These averages may or may not suit a particular scene, or they may not suit the kind of exposure you want to make. It is up to you to use your judgement and the tools at your disposal (histogram etc) to make the final decision. There is also some debate about whether digital cameras are calibrated for 18% or 12% grey but it honestly makes no odds. The fact that the meter will indicate a constant is what matters and it is common practise for really picky photographers to modify their meter readings, usually by overriding the calibration of the meter simply by setting the ISO to a slighly different level.

But as I've said, it's all pretty academic as the LCD/histogram/blinkies is by far the best way of showing that you've actually got what you want on the file.

BTW, I would ignore the colour histogram. It only shows what modifications the camera's processor has made to the JPEG conversion, not to the actual Raw file. I don't see the point of it TBH.
 
Bloody hell!!! This can be a a bit complicated can't it? Right, as i see it now, after some excellent replies (thanks everyone) don't believe everything you see on the LCD info screen - tweak as necessary. It's not a science as much as its an art - pesonal to the photographer and his/her clients requested needs.
 
Haha! Not a bad summary. I hope this is more helpful than confusing :D

You can believe both the historgram and the light meter. They do not lie. The histogram is closest to the real thing because it's derived from the actual image file, but it's also important to know that it is a JPEG (it has to be, you can't actually see an unprocessed Raw file) and therefore adjusted by the camera's processing parameters, ie Picture Styles etc.

The only thing I would really be wary of is the Contrast setting in Picture Styles, which can shift the histogram over one full stop left/right with identical exposure levels. To see what I mean, shoot two identical images, one with the Contrast at max and one at minimum and you'll see it clearly enough. The point at which blinkies (highlight over-exposure warning) cut in is also changed with the Contrast setting.

For this reason, some people set everything in Picture Styles to zero so that the resulting JPEG-generated histogram is as close to a neutral Raw as possible but I don't do this because it wrecks the resulting JPEG image if you want to skip any Raw processing yourself and go straight to JPEG output. The important thing is to know what parameters you have set, to keep them constant, and know (by experimentation) how much lee-way and headroom you've got if you want to go tweaking things, eg exposing to the right.

Much the same applies to using a separate hand-held meter, either in reflective mode or for incident readings. The important thing is to know how the thing works, ie to know that whatever you point it at, using whichever method, it will always scramble whatever light you've pointed it at and pin it to to the 18% grey level. It doesn't actually matter if the camera is calibrated slightly differently, maybe for 12% grey, or that different sensors react differently just as different film emulsions do. The point is that it is constant, you know what it is doing and you know how to interpret it because you've experimented with it in combination with your camera.

Phew. That's the theory of it as I can best explain, but is sounds horrendously complicated like that. And while exposure setting is an exact science in theory, in practice it is quite a long way from it. I mentioned some of the tricky variables earlier - a lens diaphragm that is a fraction of a mm out which can make maybe a third of a stop difference at a small aperture like f/16; who says that ISO400 on one camera is exactly 400 on another (often it is not); vignetting - use a wide zoom at low f/numbers and the edges of the frame will be a stop darker than the centre; f/numbers themselves are theoretical and the light transmission actually hitting the sensor, the T/stop, can be a third of a stop out; shutter speeds are not always accurate although I think they are pretty good nowadays, but they used to be notoriously inaccurate at high speeds; the flash output might not be consistent shot to shot and in fact it certainly won't be if you're using a hot-shoe gun and shooting fast before it can recycle fully; and so it goes on, last but certainly not least is how you use the meter (assuming it's accurate!) what you point it at and how you interpret the reading.

So, after all that, if you can get your exposure to within half a stop of optimum, in practise that is actually as good as it gets due to all manner of constantly shifting variables that you cannot hope to keep dead accurate track of.

If you really want or need to be any more accurate than that then you should bracket your exposures, maybe +/- half a stop either way. Just like film! It's very easy with auto-bracketing, even if I might think it's a waste of time LOL
 
My answer to your original question is that your histogram won't be much help if you use a blitzed out white background.

Not sure I understand this one Garry. Surely the histo will represent all of the reflected scales within the scene? So whilst you would expect a chunk of spikes to the right, you should also see the expected mid range curves from the correctly exposed subject? Or are you saying that the entire histo will shift towards the right because of the blown background?

Not had my morning coffee so not thinking straight.... :bonk:
 
I referred to the same possible error myself, I took Garrys statement to mean the same.

That being, the white face and the white background are going to show close together on the histogram anyway, so if the background is blown the OP won't easily be able to distinguish between the face and the background. ...and even more so if hes pushing both to the right.
 
Bloody hell!!! This can be a a bit complicated can't it? Right, as i see it now, after some excellent replies (thanks everyone) don't believe everything you see on the LCD info screen - tweak as necessary. It's not a science as much as its an art - pesonal to the photographer and his/her clients requested needs.


Its easy to get confused when we all mix film and digital techniques together...18% is the film way and 12-14% is many internal digi meters way. (their are good reasons for this that I'll not go into right now)

In its basics you simply need to use a meter to give a constant as Hoppy says, then add your own compensation to that meters reading to bring the histogram to the position you want, just use the highlight tool as a reference to how far you can push it.
 
The easy perfect way to histogram for studio is to use a tricolor grey/white/black board.

something like this should do the trick: http://www.lastolite.com/tribalance.php

You get 3 perfect spikes. One either end and one smack in the centre. This gives you a perfect reading for mid/high and low. And easy to achieve instead of all the above waffle.
 
The easy perfect way to histogram for studio is to use a tricolor grey/white/black board.

You get 3 perfect spikes. One either end and one smack in the centre. This gives you a perfect reading for mid/high and low. And easy to achieve instead of all the above waffle.

:cough:

Well thanks for accusing us all of waffling Daryl, could you climb down off your high horse now and explain how this tricolour board will help the OP push his exposure to the right, the connection, the reason, the why?

:bonk:
 
Not sure I understand this one Garry. Surely the histo will represent all of the reflected scales within the scene? So whilst you would expect a chunk of spikes to the right, you should also see the expected mid range curves from the correctly exposed subject? Or are you saying that the entire histo will shift towards the right because of the blown background?

Not had my morning coffee so not thinking straight.... :bonk:

I think what Garry might be saying that once you've zapped the highlights off the scale, they might be a tenth of a stop over, or ten stops over, you don't know. Maybe :thinking:

Hehehe, not high,. got no horse!!!!!!

No offence meant, just that most on here like to be technical. Me? I'm a lazy SOB and will use the easy way.

This gives quick , easy accurate ratings... you to be playing rather than wasting more time in setting up......

Example: hope it helps .... http://www.lastolite.com/tribalance.php#

TBH I'm with Daryl. You can faff about with this stuff too much and given all the unknown little variables at play, and considering that you can't actually adjust the camera closer than within 1/3rd of a stop anyway, getting it there or thereabouts is fine by me.

With exposure I find it's actually more important in practice to get everything that matters at least somewhere on the scale of the histogram, in terms of relative exposure levels. By that I mean that quite often there is just too much dynamic range in a scene to get it all spot on, so rather than fiddle with the overall exposure level in what is often a futile attempt, I will add some fill-in flash to lift the shadows, fit a polariser, or a grad, or have a bash at HDR - that kind of thing. At least if everything is somewhere on the histogram I can sort it out later if needs be.

I will also confess to sometimes not finding the histogram that easy to read in tricky situations when you have to think fast. Have a look at the sample images and histograms here and see if you can match them up correctly - I didn't do that well ;) This is a good link - maybe I should have posted it earlier :lol: http://www.sekonic.com/images/files/HistogramsLightmetersWorkTogether.pdf

My technique now, and I'm actually quite pleased with the way it works, is to be guided by blinkies as much as anything. Having set everything up in Picture Styles etc so that I know where I am and how much headroom I've got, I will generally take a test pic and then increase the exposure until I get blinkies flashing. I then know very accurately how far over-exposed they are, and exactly which areas are affected. I can then make a quick, easy and accurate assessment of whether to back off a bit or push them further if they don't matter, or use another technique to modify the dynamic range, or whatever. The point is, I know where I am, can make adjustments on the basis of some pretty solid info, or just let it ride. Quite often the latter, there or thereabouts is usually good enough for me - there are more important things to worry about, like if am I pointing the camera at something interesting :)
 
Two out of four for me .:gag: they didn't make them easy did they!?!

One out of four for me!!!

Haha! That's interesting. I think I got two and while they might not be that easy they don't look out of the ordinary either! Tricky little blighters.

Now if they had blinkies flashing I would be confident of setting an exposure level close to optimum for the highlights pretty much regardless of the histogram. I would then look at the histogram and see how much clutter there was in the shadows, at the graveyard end of the graph, and see what could be done about that. Or not, as the case may be.
 
Ooh, I got 4 right. But then I don't have a light meter and depend on the histogram & blinkies.
 
I spot meter off my own white caucasian palm at +1.3. Since my palm is a skin tone, that places all skin tones at a pretty good position on the tonal scale. I use my palm because it does not tan and is thus a fairly constant reference all year round. This is just the same as metering a grey at at +0 (or using an incident light meter) but using something that is free and which I never forget to bring with me.

If there are whites/brights/lights in the scene then this will naturally give me a nice ETTR exposure without clipping reflected whites. If I have no whites/brights/lights in the scene (e.g. a brown horse in a green field against a blue sky (no clouds)) then I will add up to a further stop to my exposure to move my histogram towards the right and buy me an extra stop of shadow detail and less noise and which I can then adjust in post.

Some people may have palms a bit lighter or darker than mine, so you may need to experiment to find your own adjustment factor.

If you want to optimise an ETTR exposure then, IMHO, the easiest thing to do is simply to spot meter the brightest important part of the scene (reflected light) at +3.

Of course, if you shoot with flash then that's a whole separate topic.
 
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