High Speed Flash?

[bildo]

I'm currently using Yongnuo RF-603 triggers with 2x YN560 III and 1x Nikon SB600 flash.

As I'm sure most of you are aware, with this I get the typical 'blacked-out' part at the bottom if I go anywhere above 1/200 shutter speed.

I'm going to be shooting some action in the next few days and it'd be a great help if people could suggest ways to get the highest shutter speeds. Am I correct in thinking that the YN560 isn't capable of shooting at such speeds, or is it the trigger that is limiting my ability to do so?

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Phil V]

It could be that your camera is a limiting factor too. Low end Nikons don't do FP sync. Your SB900 does, but I think you'd need YN622 triggers.

But, it's oft misunderstood that a flash can freeze action at very low shutter speeds, so long as the ambient light level is low. However if the ambient light level is high, it gets tricky, and expensive because speedlights don't put out a lot of power when in FP sync mode.

 

[bildo]

It could be that your camera is a limiting factor too. Low end Nikons don't do FP sync. Your SB900 does, but I think you'd need YN622 triggers.

But, it's oft misunderstood that a flash can freeze action at very low shutter speeds, so long as the ambient light level is low. However if the ambient light level is high, it gets tricky, and expensive because speedlights don't put out a lot of power when in FP sync mode.

Thanks for the reply Phil, it's an SB600, not 900, would that still be capable? I did think that those triggers may be the case, it's pretty frustrating as my understanding is that the 568's from Yongnuo can do HSS but my one's can't. I only bought these a few months ago and didn't think about it at the time. *sigh*

Basically what I'm going to be shooting is fast-moving action around famous landmarks in London at nighttime - very little light, fast action, pretty much the trickiest scenario going haha.

As for camera being a limiting factor, I have a D750 and a D800E.

 

[adrianday]

If the ambient light is low, it shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Phil V]

If the ambient light is low, it shouldn't be a problem.

This.
You don't need a fast shutter speed to freeze action so long as there's not much ambient. Lots of water droplet and similar shots can be done on bulb. The exposure length is the amount of time the flash is lit, a quoted 1/6400 at 1/4 power.

However, a couple of speedlights might not be enough to light a 'landmark'.

 

[sk66]

If the ambient is low, then you don't need high SS... you need lower flash power settings. A flash at 1/2 power is equivalent to something like 1/2000 SS. You might have to use multiple flashes at the lower setting in order to get enough light, but I would think you should be able to stop quite a bit w/ three speedlights.

You can also use the speedlights to freeze the action, and a longer SS to "burn in" the environment.

 

[russellsnr]

Hi, Your 560's are manual only lights with NO HSS (it does say this in the description on them) If you need to go above that 200/250 shutter speed then the YN600 is a better option (Can be picked up at under the 80 pound mark) YN 568 does HSS but for the price diff I would go the 600 route. Yongnuo are brining out a new light soon I beleive but rumours are will be 100 pound plus on launch.
Russ

 

[Steve Smith]

With low ambient light, a single flash with a slow shutter speed is probably going to give you a 'more frozen' image than multiple flashes with a higher shutter speed.

If you use high speed flash you get a series of low power flashes for the duration of the shutter time. Each one will capture a slightly different image if the subject is moving at any speed.


Steve.

 

[bildo]

This.
You don't need a fast shutter speed to freeze action so long as there's not much ambient. Lots of water droplet and similar shots can be done on bulb. The exposure length is the amount of time the flash is lit, a quoted 1/6400 at 1/4 power.

However, a couple of speedlights might not be enough to light a 'landmark'.

Thank you for this, makes a bit more sense now! I was thinking that, however the client is aware of the limitations so hopefully we can make do with what we've got, it's certainly going to be challenging though!

If the ambient is low, then you don't need high SS... you need lower flash power settings. A flash at 1/2 power is equivalent to something like 1/2000 SS. You might have to use multiple flashes at the lower setting in order to get enough light, but I would think you should be able to stop quite a bit w/ three speedlights.

You can also use the speedlights to freeze the action, and a longer SS to "burn in" the environment.

Thanks for this, would you be able to clarify a little more on the last sentence with burning in? I'm not entirely sure how to go about this but doing something a bit different would be good!

 

[Phil V]

Thank you for this, makes a bit more sense now! I was thinking that, however the client is aware of the limitations so hopefully we can make do with what we've got, it's certainly going to be challenging though!



Thanks for this, would you be able to clarify a little more on the last sentence with burning in? I'm not entirely sure how to go about this but doing something a bit different would be good!

It's what our Murrican wedding snapper friends call 'dragging the shutter'.
Basically you choose an ISO and aperture suitable for your flash exposure, then use a long shutter speed to capture the ambient.

Not really what you want but if you look at my last blog post, there's a bride on the dance floor frozen with flash, and a shutter speed of about half a second where I spin the camera to capture the 'movement' of the disco lights. It'll give you an idea of the '2 exposures, flash and ambient' principal.
I can't link I'm on my phone.

 

[Steve Smith]

Also, look up second curtain sync to get movement blur leading up to the sharp image rather than after it.


Steve.

 

[sk66]

Thanks for this, would you be able to clarify a little more on the last sentence with burning in? I'm not entirely sure how to go about this but doing something a bit different would be good!

Think of flash as two exposures...
You have the ambient exposure based on camera settings, and you have the flash exposure "on top."
"Burning in" is using a long exposure for the ambient/BG as if no flash was going to be used. Anything that is illuminated by the flash will have "extra exposure." With a moving subject, their exposure will be determined by the length of time they are present in the FOV (based on the ambient exposure settings, i.e. "ghosting" motion blur) and by the flash exposure.

Most high speed stuff is recorded with a "black ambient" exposure and the subject is only lit by short duration (low power) flash. Therefore there is no "ghosting."
Front curtain -vs- rear curtain... if the ambient exposure is bright enough to cause ghosting/motion blur, then the timing of the flash will determine "where" the flash exposure is placed "on top" of that motion trail. If there is not a singular direction to the motion it doesn't much matter (i.e. I have frozen hummingbird wings in the middle of beat w/ motion blur on both sides).

And with freezing motion... keep in mind that for most motions there is a point where things slow down and it's easier to freeze if you can get the timing right (i.e. the top of a jump).

 

[bildo]

Thanks for the great responses guys, only got time for a quick skim over but I'm going to do some more in-depth research and look at your responses tonight.

One more thing I forgot to ask, is there a trigger available on the market which would allow me to adjust the 560III flashes via the trigger? Since they're manual it's a pain to have to keep going over to them when they're off-camera! I rarely use them, but from memory they have receivers built in, so if Yongnuo do make something like that which I could put on the camera, it'd be great.

I did have a quick look on Amazon but I find it so hard to not get confused by the descriptions of what each receiver does! There's so much TTL related stuff too which I know definitely doesn't apply to me.

Thanks again in advance, I really appreciate the great responses so far!

 

[russellsnr]

Thanks for the great responses guys, only got time for a quick skim over but I'm going to do some more in-depth research and look at your responses tonight.

One more thing I forgot to ask, is there a trigger available on the market which would allow me to adjust the 560III flashes via the trigger? Since they're manual it's a pain to have to keep going over to them when they're off-camera! I rarely use them, but from memory they have receivers built in, so if Yongnuo do make something like that which I could put on the camera, it'd be great.

I did have a quick look on Amazon but I find it so hard to not get confused by the descriptions of what each receiver does! There's so much TTL related stuff too which I know definitely doesn't apply to me.

Thanks again in advance, I really appreciate the great responses so far!

Hi, If you are Nikon there is what you need in the for sale section a YN560TX Controller. (NOT MINE)
In fact there are two on offer in the for sale section.
Also

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWzwSE54fC0
have a look.
Russ

 

[sk66]

One more thing I forgot to ask, is there a trigger available on the market which would allow me to adjust the 560III flashes via the trigger?

there is for a few flash heads w/ their own proprietary trigger system. It would leave your SB600 out and the SB600 doesn't have optical slave mode either.

 

[bildo]

It's what our Murrican wedding snapper friends call 'dragging the shutter'.
Basically you choose an ISO and aperture suitable for your flash exposure, then use a long shutter speed to capture the ambient.

Not really what you want but if you look at my last blog post, there's a bride on the dance floor frozen with flash, and a shutter speed of about half a second where I spin the camera to capture the 'movement' of the disco lights. It'll give you an idea of the '2 exposures, flash and ambient' principal.
I can't link I'm on my phone.

Makes sense, thanks for the tip.

I have actually tried rear curtain sync before with a slow shutter (I assume that's what you used here?) I only did it with the on-camera pop-up flash and now that I'm trying to do the settings with the RF-603N connected to my D750 (via hotshoe and cable) when I press the flash button to choose rear curtain sync the flash is still trying to pop up, and when it doesn't pop up it doesn't give me the menu where I selected rear curtain sync previously. I tried looking in settings to no avail, is it still possible to do this with just a trigger?

Think of flash as two exposures...
You have the ambient exposure based on camera settings, and you have the flash exposure "on top."
"Burning in" is using a long exposure for the ambient/BG as if no flash was going to be used. Anything that is illuminated by the flash will have "extra exposure." With a moving subject, their exposure will be determined by the length of time they are present in the FOV (based on the ambient exposure settings, i.e. "ghosting" motion blur) and by the flash exposure.

Most high speed stuff is recorded with a "black ambient" exposure and the subject is only lit by short duration (low power) flash. Therefore there is no "ghosting."
Front curtain -vs- rear curtain... if the ambient exposure is bright enough to cause ghosting/motion blur, then the timing of the flash will determine "where" the flash exposure is placed "on top" of that motion trail. If there is not a singular direction to the motion it doesn't much matter (i.e. I have frozen hummingbird wings in the middle of beat w/ motion blur on both sides).

And with freezing motion... keep in mind that for most motions there is a point where things slow down and it's easier to freeze if you can get the timing right (i.e. the top of a jump).

Hugely helpful, thank you.

 

[Phil V]

Makes sense, thanks for the tip.

I have actually tried rear curtain sync before with a slow shutter (I assume that's what you used here?) I only did it with the on-camera pop-up flash and now that I'm trying to do the settings with the RF-603N connected to my D750 (via hotshoe and cable) when I press the flash button to choose rear curtain sync the flash is still trying to pop up, and when it doesn't pop up it doesn't give me the menu where I selected rear curtain sync previously. I tried looking in settings to no avail, is it still possible to do this with just a trigger?
.

That wasn't rear curtain.
It's another massive misunderstanding. Lots of people believe that you need rear curtain to 'stamp' the flash lit image on top of the ambient. It's simply not true. The brightest items will be the brightest things in the picture, so you don't need rear curtain for random movement like dancing, but you do need it if you're shooting a cyclist (for instance) that needs a movement trail behind it.

Added just for clarity. why I use 1st curtain sync; how would I know that bride would have that expression and gestures in half a seconds time? Using 2nd curtain means I'd be guessing what the final image would show of my subject. 1st curtain means I can shoot the image I like, then add the light trails.

that shot used an on camera flash bounced using a Quick Bounce, the other camera had a trigger firing a hand held bare bounce flash and a remote flash I use for a 'starlight' effect or dramatic side lit effect, depending where I stand.

 

[bildo]

That wasn't rear curtain.
It's another massive misunderstanding. Lots of people believe that you need rear curtain to 'stamp' the flash lit image on top of the ambient. It's simply not true. The brightest items will be the brightest things in the picture, so you don't need rear curtain for random movement like dancing, but you do need it if you're shooting a cyclist (for instance) that needs a movement trail behind it.

Added just for clarity. why I use 1st curtain sync; how would I know that bride would have that expression and gestures in half a seconds time? Using 2nd curtain means I'd be guessing what the final image would show of my subject. 1st curtain means I can shoot the image I like, then add the light trails.

that shot used an on camera flash bounced using a Quick Bounce, the other camera had a trigger firing a hand held bare bounce flash and a remote flash I use for a 'starlight' effect or dramatic side lit effect, depending where I stand.

That's interesting, thanks - from what I had been looking up, I assumed it required rear curtain to get some action but it makes sense now.

The action that I'll be shooting tomorrow is kind of go-karts, so I figured that having the 2nd curtain sync it might help get some additional action in the shot?

Would you be able to tell me if it's possible to get 2nd curtain with the setup I have as I still can't figure it out using my D750.

I have ordered a YN560TX through Amazon which should be coming in time tomorrow with any luck!

 

[Steve Smith]

Rear curtain sync is used to show action up to the point of the flash firing.

For example, you could photograph someone running and get the blur as he moves before the flash fires. this will give you a sharp image of the runner with some motion blur behind. If you used first curtain sync, the blur would be in front of the runner and would not look right.

Like this: http://shutterstopphotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/rickelle-042.jpg

Which is similar to the way cartoons show movement: http://neilvn.com/tangents/images/flash/flash-sync-rear.jpg

Actually, that second image is from this article explaining it: http://neilvn.com/tangents/first-curtain-sync-vs-rear-curtain-sync/


Steve.

 

[bildo]

Rear curtain sync is used to show action up to the point of the flash firing.

For example, you could photograph someone running and get the blur as he moves before the flash fires. this will give you a sharp image of the runner with some motion blur behind. If you used first curtain sync, the blur would be in front of the runner and would not look right.

Like this: http://shutterstopphotography.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/rickelle-042.jpg

Which is similar to the way cartoons show movement: http://neilvn.com/tangents/images/flash/flash-sync-rear.jpg

Actually, that second image is from this article explaining it: http://neilvn.com/tangents/first-curtain-sync-vs-rear-curtain-sync/


Steve.

Thanks Steve, these could well be perfect for what I want to achieve since I will have action within the shot and I imagine the background is going to be ambient light so it'd be good to do at least a few shots with rear sync.

If I can figure out how to activate it with off-camera flash that is!

 

[Phil V]

That's interesting, thanks - from what I had been looking up, I assumed it required rear curtain to get some action but it makes sense now.

The action that I'll be shooting tomorrow is kind of go-karts, so I figured that having the 2nd curtain sync it might help get some additional action in the shot?

Would you be able to tell me if it's possible to get 2nd curtain with the setup I have as I still can't figure it out using my D750.

I have ordered a YN560TX through Amazon which should be coming in time tomorrow with any luck!

I think you'll need the YN622 triggers for 2nd curtain (but I'm not an expert on Nikon)

 

[bildo]

I think you'll need the YN622 triggers for 2nd curtain (but I'm not an expert on Nikon)

Thanks for the reply Phil, that'd be a shame, I don't have time to order anything else before it now. Oh well, I'll have to make do with what I've got unless anyone can figure out a way.

Thanks for all your help though, it's been hugely appreciated.

 

[Phil V]

Thanks for the reply Phil, that'd be a shame, I don't have time to order anything else before it now. Oh well, I'll have to make do with what I've got unless anyone can figure out a way.

Thanks for all your help though, it's been hugely appreciated.

I did tell you in plenty of time

It could be that your camera is a limiting factor too. Low end Nikons don't do FP sync. Your SB900 does, but I think you'd need YN622 triggers.

But, it's oft misunderstood that a flash can freeze action at very low shutter speeds, so long as the ambient light level is low. However if the ambient light level is high, it gets tricky, and expensive because speedlights don't put out a lot of power when in FP sync mode.

 

[Phil V]

Thanks for the reply Phil, that'd be a shame, I don't have time to order anything else before it now. Oh well, I'll have to make do with what I've got unless anyone can figure out a way.

Thanks for all your help though, it's been hugely appreciated.

How did it go?

 

[bildo]

How did it go?

Not as planned, in the slightest! It ended up being shot in a pitch black warehouse with far, far too much fire for anyone's lungs to be able to deal with.

Needless to say, the flashes don't help issues with focusing when you can't see what you're shooting haha!

I also couldn't figure out how to use the 560TX in the 15-20 mins I had before the shoot, I think I need to try and decipher their poor instructions again!