High resolution neg scans

erictearle

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Eric Tearle
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Hi,

I recently shot some photo's for a record company and their new signing. They love the photos and have since purchased the rights to them.

They now want EVEN higher resolution jpeg's of the images. When I had the neg's scanned by the local lab who develops my film they scanned the negatives at the highest possible resolution for their scanner, which is around 3mb and around 2936x1936. Is there any way of scanning negatives any bigger?

They asked if they could get the photo's in a file size of 100mb per photo? Awaiting there response as to why they need 100mb file sizes, I can only assuming it's for printing in a larger format.

Hypothetically speaking; If say I had a negative that I wanted to print for a billboard, how would that be possible? Or what is that process?
 
You need to find somewhere with a drum scanner. Then they can scan the negs again but properly. A dedicated consumer film scanner is about 4000-5000 dpi and will give roughly 7000 x 5000 at the higher end of that. Drum scanners are even better.

Billboard resolution isn't as important as you would think as they're generally viewed from a distance.
 
What size negative, and what film did you shoot?

A 100MB tiff has a resolution of around 7200 x 4800, ~35mpix.
 
You need to find somewhere with a drum scanner. Then they can scan the negs again but properly. A dedicated consumer film scanner is about 4000-5000 dpi and will give roughly 7000 x 5000 at the higher end of that. Drum scanners are even better.

Billboard resolution isn't as important as you would think as they're generally viewed from a distance.

Well I would be surprised with a consumer film scanner that you could get better detailed results equivalent to a 3-5mp digital camera with an excellent lens. :shrug:
 
Eric, are you sure it's a 100MB JPEG they want? Assuming you're shooting 35mm that sounds like an incredibly large image! Was it maybe a 100MB TIFF they're after? If so and the images are on negative film you probably don't need a drum scanner, with a bit of careful scanning you could probably get perfectly adequate results from something more conventional like the widely available and very popular Epson V500. My standard 35mm scans on the V500 come out at around 12 megapixel and 70MB at 3200dpi, it's debatable whether there's any real benefit from scanning at a much higher resolution but increasing to 6400dpi would probably give the kind of file they want and with a little careful editing the image should be pretty much ready for them to use straight away.
 
I have a Polaroid 4000 if that helps?
 
It was vague they just said a 100mb file size for photo so I'm assuming that's a TIFF.
If so I could probably speak to the Lab again and see if their scanner can scan in TIFF format.

I shot Fuji neopan and Fuji Superior both 35mm
 
Don't mess around saving a few £££s and go to a competent lab and get it drum scanned to tiff.....tiff can be converted to JPG........the neg in the drum scanner once set up, would think the operator could scan to jpg and tiff in separate files if need be, anyway a lab would know what companies want as I'm sure the record company (or printers handling the job) have many other shots for their covers.
Once you have the files then use Photoshop or similar to remove any spots etc or correct the colours if you are unhappy...in fact you can use a denoise program to minimize the grain, but be careful as it can turn the shot into looking more "digital".
BTW I'm just an amateur, but it's what I would do in your situation.
 
Obviously a drum scan would be ideal but be prepared to pay maybe 30-40 quid per frame for it! If you'd shot on slide film there'd be no doubt drum scanning would be the way to go but on neg film you genuinely might be able to get good enough results without needing to drum scan. It's the best option but not necessarily the only option.
 
Obviously a drum scan would be ideal but be prepared to pay maybe 30-40 quid per frame for it! If you'd shot on slide film there'd be no doubt drum scanning would be the way to go but on neg film you genuinely might be able to get good enough results without needing to drum scan. It's the best option but not necessarily the only option.

True but it depends how much Eric is being paid for the use of his neg, or whether Eric wants to break into this line of work. Next time he would maybe use a MF film camera or DSLR (because every one now wants squeaky clean shots).......but then like the old days I'm sure quite a few record covers were shot with 35mm maybe this record company wants the 60's look. :shrug:
 
To be honest I've been very surprised at some of the results I've had from scanning 35mm film on the V500, they're often much better than I'd expect. I've seen the results of the first experiments me and the Hooley have done with our drum scanner and sure, it's resolving a ton more detail than the V500 but if the neg is clean and sharp to start with you really should be able to get pretty damned good results going a slightly more conventional route.

Naturally if they're paying a decent amount for the use of the images then a drum scan is perfectly justifiable. I'm not by any means putting down drum scanners (especially as I own half of one), I'm just trying to give another point of view and another option to potentially look into. :)
 
To be honest I've been very surprised at some of the results I've had from scanning 35mm film on the V500, they're often much better than I'd expect. I've seen the results of the first experiments me and the Hooley have done with our drum scanner and sure, it's resolving a ton more detail than the V500 but if the neg is clean and sharp to start with you really should be able to get pretty damned good results going a slightly more conventional route.

Naturally if they're paying a decent amount for the use of the images then a drum scan is perfectly justifiable. I'm not by any means putting down drum scanners (especially as I own half of one), I'm just trying to give another point of view and another option to potentially look into. :)

Are you going to start a new thread comparing drum scans to home scanners as it would be very interesting with shots and crops :thumbs:
 
That can't be right as a full res, 16 bit 3600 dpi scan of a 35mm frame from my Reflecta Proscan 7200 only comes to a 100mb TIFF which equals 50mb in 8 bit so what their asking for cannot be simply obtained as even an 8 bit 4000 dpi scan would only come to about 60 mb. For a 100mb file you would need a scan of approximately 5000 dpi which is difficult to obtain with most professional scanners let alone a consumer scanner (the quoted dpi is usually never really obtained - the V500 for instance only actually resolves ~1800 dpi at the 6400 dpi setting - so the file just becomes bloated with no extra detail actually in the scan).
 
excalibur2 said:
Are you going to start a new thread comparing drum scans to home scanners as it would be very interesting with shots and crops :thumbs:

Well we don't have it working properly yet so anything we do is a little way off but it would indeed be interesting to see a comparison! There's a comparison online between the Howtek D4000 (the one we have) and an Epson V750, it's a bit of an odd comparison though because the D4000 scans are at it's maximum resolution of 4000dpi while the V750 images are at 6500dpi so the output images are different sizes. I'm not quite sure why they've done it like that as directly comparing 2 different size images doesn't quite work to me but nonetheless, it's still clear the D4000 is pulling much more detail out of the shadows and is also much sharper.

I'm sure Rob and I will be bouncing around the room like excited 5 year olds at Christmas when we get the thing working properly and we'll definitely be doing some comparison images for our own purposes so yeah, we'll see about knocking a fun little comparison thread together. :)
 
s162216 said:
a 100mb file you would need a scan of approximately 5000 dpi which is difficult to obtain with most professional scanners let alone a consumer scanner (the quoted dpi is usually never really obtained - the V500 for instance only actually resolves ~1800 dpi at the 6400 dpi setting - so the file just becomes bloated with no extra detail actually in the scan).

Indeed but you're possibly unlikely to get any benefit from scanning 35mm at 5000dpi on anything, drum scanner or otherwise. I was purely thinking of being able to get a file with the specs they've asked for. I agree it would just be a "bloated" file with no benefit in actual detail but it might still be okay for what's needed.

In all fairness this is all guesswork anyway without knowing exactly what the image is going to be used for. If it's album covers or billboards then I'm absolutely certain a V500 or similar scan would be adequate if carefully processed but if it's going to be printed seriously at high res then a drum scan is without doubt the way to go.

Eric, is there a way you can find out exactly how they're wanting to use the image?
 
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I'm trying to find out now what exactly they're trying to achieve but they are being a little secretive about it! A shame really because I want to help but it's hard when I can't get the right information.

I'm not even sure why a 100mb file is really needed. Even a DLSR RAW image at 30mb (give or take) can be used to huge picture sizes. And like you say if it was album covers/poster work I don't think a file size that big is really needed.
 
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well - BITD, I used to do a bit of work for a couple of companies that produced magazines, and they regularly required drum scans of 120 frames for publication as double page spreads in magazines. I also did one or two things that made their way onto billboard posters, product shots (think a "sweating" cold can/bottle of beer type things) which were usually done on either 5x4" or 10x8 studio rigs and transparency...

so, I guess that it wouldn't be out of the ordinary to be thinking drum-scanning :shrug:
 
Our large scans yield files of around 92mb from 35mm negs. By asking for this size it means they cover themselves for whatever they might want to do with them.

Matt
 
My 'Cheap' Consumer Scanner Gives:3360x5184=17Mpix. Aprox 100Mb Tiff's; 10Mb low-Compression Jpg's; About 1.5Mb 'Medium' Compression Jpg's, around 0.5Mb High-Compression Jpg's.

There is a lot more detail on Halide film than most scanners, can resolve, by a LONG way. I have been messing with my Nikon and a Slide Duplicator lens and my old Printing Enlarger to see what I might pull off a 35mm; and doing it in sections.... well, I am getting down to the films halide chrystal 'grain', when I am taking 6000x4000 pixel crops of about 1/60th of the frame... ie: I blow up the neg and put the 24x16mm sensor under what would be about 4.5x3mm of negative! If you could stitch that lot together, you'd have a digital image, 48,000 x 32,000=1,500MPix! and probably around 50,000Mb disc-space in Tiff! But practically, you are getting pretty much all there is on the 36x24mm film, image wise, from between maybe 12,000x8,000 and 24,000x16,000 pixels, and tiff files, 200Mb to 500Mb 'ish'.

Trouble when people as for files of a certain Mb size... is that the IMAGE size, is umpety pixels wide by dumpety pixels tall. That defines what you have in the picture. The FILE size is only notionally related to the image size. Bigger images do tend to demand higher file-sizes, but, the file size depends on what is in the picture. If it's a 'simple' design, say a black circle on a red back-ground, then the 'data' to describe it is a lot simpler, than in the top corner is sky, with some fluffy clouds, leading into trees in the middle to left of frame, with grass fore-ground and a child playing with a yellow ball as the subject in the center, his mother in a purple dress with floral design watching from the right, as his brother in jeans and a red t-shirt comes in to tackle the boy who is wearing a Liver-pool strip.... see how many words it takes tro describe each image? That's how the file size 'works'... more complicated the pic, more digital 'words' are needed to describe it. THEN you have the influence of file format, and any inherent compression. Some file formats, take more words to describe the scene than others; be like translating my description of the two pictures into Latin, or German, or whatever. Then you have compression, and how much 'short-hand' can be applied to compress the description, like using txt spk.

So when some-one askes for a 100Mb file.... what do they ACTUALLY want, and why?

If they want a really high resolution image for reproduction work, then they possibly want as many pixels as they can get... ie 6000x4000 not 3000x2000. But its just as likely that they want an image that is 'manageable' in whatever storage and editing they use.

If I want a REALLY good base image to work on, I can 'make' 200+Mb Tiff files from my negs.... but, my scanner delivers 100Mb Tiff files straight off, and they are so big, and take up so much computer memory that I cant do an awful lot with them in a hurry, I'm sat looking at an egg-timer half the time! 10Mb Jpgs are a lot easier to work with, and take up a lot less room on my hard drive. But I need sub 1Mb high compression jpg's if I want to e-mail them to any-one.

In your situation; my line would be to ask them to be a LOT more specific as to what they actually WANT.

1/ Pixel Count
2/ Colour depth, 4-bit, 8-bit, 32-bit
3/ Format
4/ Compression

IF who you are speaking to doesn't know; tell them to go ask some-one who does and get back to you. OR you will make the original negatives available to them, or a representative (Ie; pro-lab of thier choice, at thier expense) for them to obtain the scans they require.

Keep it simple, keep it proffessional.
 
TheBigYin said:
which were usually done on either 5x4" or 10x8 studio rigs and transparency...

Ah yeah, I rather stupidly forgot about the big stuff. Bit of a silly mistake on my part as I'm an RB67 user! Admittedly though I'm a new one, at least that's my excuse and I'm sticking with it... :lol:
 
Alternatively, for drum scans email Tim Parkin. His drum scans are cheap and very good. A recent 4x5 scan of mine from him was around 500mb.

Imacon scans of 120 that I had done locally at Digitalab came out at 172mb. I am not sure however what size a 35mm neg could yield however.
 
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