Heresy...

[menthel]

I have just been thinking about 'digital film' for all of our wonderful film cameras. I think the way forward is for a simple sensor and electronics pack that can be slotted into a camera with a wireless link to your smartphone. From there you can adjust iso and look at jpeg reviews of your pictures. They would then be offloaded from the bit in the camera to your computer when you got home. It gives you the chance to have as much digital input as required and avoids overcomplicating the bit that slots into the camera.

And I am in work avoidance mode, so don't ask!

 

[CT]

I have just been thinking about 'digital film' for all of our wonderful film cameras. I think the way forward is for a simple sensor and electronics pack that can be slotted into a camera with a wireless link to your smartphone. From there you can adjust iso and look at jpeg reviews of your pictures. They would then be offloaded from the bit in the camera to your computer when you got home. It gives you the chance to have as much digital input as required and avoids overcomplicating the bit that slots into the camera.

And I am in work avoidance mode, so don't ask!

I'm pretty sure that Kodak looked into just this a few years ago - not long after the first digital compacts started appearing - in fact they spent quite a bit of time on research I believe.

The whole idea was shelved because digital compacts were constantly out-pacing any results they could achieve from such a system and mp counts were pretty low back then. Here's one fellow heretic though who would kinda like the idea.

 

[Alastair]

Umm.. why not just shoot digital? if you are happy to accept film emulation and want to use old lenses you can just use adapters with your DSLR or m4/3 camera?

Your idea sounds a bit like fitting an electric motor in a steam locomotive.. the point of still running steam engines is the sound, the heat and the smells of coal smoke and hot oil.. if you just wanted to get from A to B there are much more efficient and modern methods.

 

[menthel]

I'm pretty sure that Kodak looked into just this a few years ago - not long after the first digital compacts started appearing - in fact they spent quite a bit of time on research I believe.

The whole idea was shelved because digital compacts were constantly out-pacing any results they could achieve from such a system and mp counts were pretty low back then. Here's one fellow heretic though who would kinda like the idea.

I do think that now it may be more viable. The rate of huge step changes in sensor tech has slowed considerably and minaturisation is all the rage! Let the heresy continue!

 

[menthel]

Umm.. why not just shoot digital? if you are happy to accept film emulation and want to use old lenses you can just use adapters with your DSLR or m4/3 camera?

Your idea sounds a bit like fitting an electric motor in a steam locomotive.. the point of still running steam engines is the sound, the heat and the smells of coal smoke and hot oil.. if you just wanted to get from A to B there are much more efficient and modern methods.

Because its not just the lenses, its the feel and operation of the camera. I don't take photographs professionally, its a hobby and one I want to enjoy for my own reasons and I suspect there are many out there like me (and CT!). The only cameras that are like my film camera are the R-D1, M8 and M9 and two of these are now old and have problems whilst costing £1-1.5k and the other is £5k! Plenty of reasons not to just shoot digital in my book...

 

[CT]

I do think that now it may be more viable. The rate of huge step changes in sensor tech has slowed considerably and minaturisation is all the rage! Let the heresy continue!

I'm surprised it hasn't happened tbh and I think it may well do at some stage with the progress in technology as you say Jim, and what seems to be the huge resurgence in interest in film cameras. If film ever becomes seriously threatened as a resource (heaven forbid) then I think we'll definitely see it happen as there would be a huge market to make it worthwhile. Much as I love film I've used the blad more since I bought an early digi back for it and I now grab and use it much more readliy than I did before. Just using such a great piece of machinery is a kick for me whether I'm shooting film or erm... something else!.

 

[Musicman]

You mean something like the 'RE-35 digital cartridge for analog 35mm cameras' that was doing the rounds earlier this year?

Not real and never was.

Rather like the Imagek EFS-1 in 1998.

 

[Alastair]

But what do you retain of the feel/atmosphere of using the camera by doing this? My travel film camera is a Kodak Retina - a nice solid, weighty hunk of metal (and I can't be the only one who relishes the smell of a freshly opened film cannister). If I load it with Portra 400 I've enough latitude in the dynamic range that being able to change the ISO a stop or two in either direction doesn't gain very much. I love the feel of the lever action when winding on. Loading a 35mm cassette isn't a hassle. There's also a joy in not getting instant feedback, having to wait for the roll to come back from being developed.

When I shoot MF.. part of the appeal there is the limited number of shots per roll and having to take my time with each shot to try and make them count. Shooting MF film is almost a meditation (eek, slightly pretensious sounding - hope you know what I mean) with a light meter and my exposure crib table. Whether that's 10 shots on the RB or 8 shots on the 420. I could fit a digital back to the RB, but far more fun and instantaneous is putting on a Polaroid back (isn't it odd, but the fastest way to put a print in someones hand is to use film).

 

[Strapps]

I've had similar thoughts; if the electronics could be built into a unit the size of a 35mm canister and the sensor put on a plate extending from it across the film plane, it could be loaded in any 35mm camera. It'd be ok if the plate was a little thicker than a film as the pressure plate will bend back to accommodate it, though putting a low pass filter in front of the sensor and protecting it from dust might be a bit more tricky.

Umm.. why not just shoot digital? if you are happy to accept film emulation and want to use old lenses you can just use adapters with your DSLR or m4/3 camera?

Because for some of us the feel of an old camera is part of the experience. My D70 works perfectly well but sometimes I like having to cock the shutter on my Agfa, work out exposure using a slide scale or as simple as working the film wind on the FM.

Also given the costs and time involved in buying film, D&P, scanning, PP, etc. it could be an attractive option for those people who'd like to use old kit with the convenience of digital processing.



Maybe I should copyright that lot, it could be my Dragon's Den idea :rules:

 

[menthel]

Exactly. I enjoy using my M6. I am not sure I can say the same of my 7D. It get the job done and is easy to use but just doesn't have the same feel. No complaints about the pictures it gives though!

 

[Strapps]

You mean something like the 'RE-35 digital cartridge for analog 35mm cameras' that was doing the rounds earlier this year?

Oh well, that was a short-lived moment in the Den. I'm out too :shake:



ETA: the disclaimer on the RE35 website admits that it doesn't exist. Can't copy & paste the text here, for some reason but you can see it by clicking on the contact link.

 

[Musicman]

Potted history of what happened to the EFS-1 concept

http://cultureandcommunication.org/deadmedia/index.php/Silicon_Film

 

[menthel]

But what do you retain of the feel/atmosphere of using the camera by doing this? My travel film camera is a Kodak Retina - a nice solid, weighty hunk of metal (and I can't be the only one who relishes the smell of a freshly opened film cannister). If I load it with Portra 400 I've enough latitude in the dynamic range that being able to change the ISO a stop or two in either direction doesn't gain very much. I love the feel of the lever action when winding on. Loading a 35mm cassette isn't a hassle. There's also a joy in not getting instant feedback, having to wait for the roll to come back from being developed.

When I shoot MF.. part of the appeal there is the limited number of shots per roll and having to take my time with each shot to try and make them count. Shooting MF film is almost a meditation (eek, slightly pretensious sounding - hope you know what I mean) with a light meter and my exposure crib table. Whether that's 10 shots on the RB or 8 shots on the 420. I could fit a digital back to the RB, but far more fun and instantaneous is putting on a Polaroid back (isn't it odd, but the fastest way to put a print in someones hand is to use film).

Hence the thread title! I thought it might stir up an interesting discussion.

With regards the camera, it will keep the feel of the camera completely (well apart from having to load film every so often). The buttons and dials will still be the same as would the metering. The digital sensor would just replace the film. As I have said above you could set it all from a mobile phone and leave it in your pocket, restrict yourself to one ISO and not review your images at all.

I guess its all about the feel of the thing and making the cameras we all love so much even more future proof. I don't think film is dying out any time soon but the choice is getting smaller and more expensive.

 

[Alastair]

A discussion is always good

I can see the appeal.. but for me it removes too much of what shooting film is about. Digital is convenient, but film is satisfying because of all of its inconveniences. Rather than semi-convert a film camera to digital, I'd rather have the Retina in one pocket and something like the X10/G12 in the other. Best of both worlds, one in either hand.

 

[menthel]

A discussion is always good

I can see the appeal.. but for me it removes too much of what shooting film is about. Digital is convenient, but film is satisfying because of all of its inconveniences. Rather than semi-convert a film camera to digital, I'd rather have the Retina in one pocket and something like the X10/G12 in the other. Best of both worlds, one in either hand.

Hehe, I like to travel light! I still love film too and sit here with the lingering smell of my abortive development of a couple of rolls last night but I do think that this would be a nice option to have.

 

[Alastair]

For me that is travelling light! last week in Paris I had the Retina and 40D. If the Retina has convinced me of one thing in the last eleven months I've owned it, it's that DSLRs are over-rated as travel cameras when the inconvenience of their weight and size is taken into account. But if I want the convenience of digital, I'd still rather have it packaged in something designed for it rather than a compromise conversion.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

Isn't this essentially the deal with modular medium format systems anyway? I.e. digi back replacing film back on an RZ or 500cm blad and so on?

There's your answer....shoot medium format, and your idea is already an every day occurance

 

[menthel]

For me that is travelling light! last week in Paris I had the Retina and 40D. If the Retina has convinced me of one thing in the last eleven months I've owned it, it's that DSLRs are over-rated as travel cameras when the inconvenience of their weight and size is taken into account. But if I want the convenience of digital, I'd still rather have it packaged in something designed for it rather than a compromise conversion.

I have to agree re: DSLRs. My 7D is weightly, especially with a selection of lenses. Its made a little easier by having found a decent bag. My Tenba mini-messenger carries the 7D with 18-50, 70-200 and flash with other bits and bobs relatively comfortably. However, my M6 with 35 and 50 are so much smaller and suit me more!

Isn't this essentially the deal with modular medium format systems anyway? I.e. digi back replacing film back on an RZ or 500cm blad and so on?

There's your answer....shoot medium format, and your idea is already an every day occurance

Because you would end up having spent M9 money and have backache!

 

[Nod]

If I get an overwhelming urge to use one of my film bodies, I'll dig it out of the cupboard and have a play. Been a while since I've been unable to resist the urge though.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

I have to agree re: DSLRs. My 7D is weightly, especially with a selection of lenses. Its made a little easier by having found a decent bag. My Tenba mini-messenger carries the 7D with 18-50, 70-200 and flash with other bits and bobs relatively comfortably. However, my M6 with 35 and 50 are so much smaller and suit me more!

Because you would end up having spent M9 money and have backache!

Man up! Lol

Check out leica r8

 

[MartynK]

This was quite a bit of discussion about this, but most of it was years ago IIRC.

Technically, I suppose it could be done. Most things are possible if you're prepared to spend enough money, but I can't see it being commercially viable. The cameras are ageing now, and the number of people who would want, and be willing to pay for, a digital 'insert' for an SRT101, F2 or Spotmatic is probably very small.

I used to like this idea, but I've gone off it. I might have bought an FM3D, if it had gone into production, but I'll just continue to use my F2 with film, the way is was designed.

 

[menthel]

Man up! Lol

Check out leica r8

If I just had a camera bag to carry it would be alright! Having a 2 year old son and a tiny wife mean that I am usually relegated to pack horse status!

As for the R8, its a beautiful camera in a wierdo futuristic kind of way but that mad digital back will just be crazy expensive. Also, I want somthing for my M6, not another SLR!

Edit: At least £2500 just for the back! The leica name does funny things to people's brains sometimes. Reading reviews the thing was outgunned by the 1DsII at the time, which is now probably half the price of the back second hand!

 

[Mahoneyd187]

If I just had a camera bag to carry it would be alright! Having a 2 year old son and a tiny wife mean that I am usually relegated to pack horse status!

As for the R8, its a beautiful camera in a wierdo futuristic kind of way but that mad digital back will just be crazy expensive. Also, I want somthing for my M6, not another SLR!

Edit: At least £2500 just for the back! The leica name does funny things to people's brains sometimes. Reading reviews the thing was outgunned by the 1DsII at the time, which is now probably half the price of the back second hand!

Aren't we all, lol. eeee-oooorrr

The R8 looks stunning I love that camera. I really don't think they'll ever be retro fitting sensors into old film cameras, switching menus, syncing the shutter etc...sounds like a mission and a half

 

[CT]

At least £2500 just for the back! The leica name does funny things to people's brains sometimes.

Spoken for truth. I must say though that the R8 is beautiful in a 'different' kind of way - one of the classic beauties from the film era I reckon.

 

[CT]

Aren't we all, lol. eeee-oooorrr

The R8 looks stunning I love that camera. I really don't think they'll ever be retro fitting sensors into old film cameras, switching menus, syncing the shutter etc...sounds like a mission and a half

Well there are no menus on my old Phase One back. Get the metering right - set shutter speed and aperture and it's on the money. Makes you wonder how much of the rest of it we really need.

 

[menthel]

Aren't we all, lol. eeee-oooorrr

The R8 looks stunning I love that camera. I really don't think they'll ever be retro fitting sensors into old film cameras, switching menus, syncing the shutter etc...sounds like a mission and a half

It has been done already. The Epson R-D1 was a voigtlander bessa RF body with all of the digital gumph in it! I think my plan is a little more elegant though, all of the digi controls, screen etc on your phone via an app and you could probably sync the shutter by using the frame advance lever in some way. Bear in mind I'm the thinker here and not the dooer!

Spoken for truth. I must say though that the R8 is beautiful in a 'different' kind of way - one of the classic beauties from the film era I reckon.

Agreed, they went their own way with the R8 and it is a beautiful looking camera!

 

[menthel]

Well there are no menus on my old Phase One back. Get the metering right - set shutter speed and aperture and it's on the money. Makes you wonder how much of the rest of it we really need.

Exactly- ISO control is about all it would need. If you really wanted you could have it shoot jpeg with film 'simulation' modes but I would go for RAW to be converted at a later date!

 

[CT]

Exactly- ISO control is about all it would need. If you really wanted you could have it shoot jpeg with film 'simulation' modes but I would go for RAW to be converted at a later date!

That's what I do (shoot raw) and shoot tethered straight into Capture One.

 

[menthel]

That's what I do and shoot tethered straight into Capture One.

Shame it won't fit into my camera bag or be any good with a high speed toddler as a subject!

 

[CT]

Shame it won't fit into my camera bag or be any good with a high speed toddler as a subject!

LOL There is that - plus the laptop for tethered shooting.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

Well there are no menus on my old Phase One back. Get the metering right - set shutter speed and aperture and it's on the money. Makes you wonder how much of the rest of it we really need.

No menus sure, but a firewire cable and a desktop/MBP probably lol

 

[CT]

No menus sure, but a firewire cable and a desktop/MBP probably lol

LOL That's true, but get the basic exposure right and the images look surprising good right on opening in Capture One -although it's nice to be able to tweak a bit I must admit.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

LOL That's true, but get the basic exposure right and the images look surprising good right on opening in Capture One -although it's nice to be able to tweak a bit I must admit.

Totally off thread, what back do you use? I'm looking at getting a H20

 

[CT]

I have the H10 (11mp). Don't underestimate what these early backs are capable of - the H10 is full 16 bit and great for say product shots and even portraits where shooting tethered isn't too inconvenient The H20 would be a big improvement again. They need to be used at fairly low ISOs though for best quality.

 

[Mahoneyd187]

I have the H10 (11mp). Don't underestimate what these early backs are capable of - the H10 is full 16 bit and great for say product shots and even portraits where shooting tethered isn't too inconvenient The H20 would be a big improvement again. They need to be used at fairly low ISOs though for best quality.

I'm debating grabbing one soon, though a better scanner may be on the cards first. Thanks for that, I'll try and test one out soon when I've got the adapter for my rz

 

[TheBigYin]

I think my plan is a little more elegant though, all of the digi controls, screen etc on your phone via an app and you could probably sync the shutter by using the frame advance lever in some way. ...

I'm not sure about the "digital film" idea - though it could well be a cut-rate way of getting a 5Dii equivalent with better AF performance by using my EOS-3...

I DO like the idea of using the mobile as a screen though - but for my own nefarious purposes - if you could get a add-on camera that'd mount on the viewfinder, and transmit the signal via bluetooth/wifi/madjik to a smartphone or iPad say and provide a "liveview" equivalent for film cameras it'd make the macro and closeup or still life stuff I'm shooting more of recently a damned sight easier, and mean I'd have shot a little more film this year.

 

[menthel]

I'm not sure about the "digital film" idea - though it could well be a cut-rate way of getting a 5Dii equivalent with better AF performance by using my EOS-3...

I DO like the idea of using the mobile as a screen though - but for my own nefarious purposes - if you could get a add-on camera that'd mount on the viewfinder, and transmit the signal via bluetooth/wifi/madjik to a smartphone or iPad say and provide a "liveview" equivalent for film cameras it'd make the macro and closeup or still life stuff I'm shooting more of recently a damned sight easier, and mean I'd have shot a little more film this year.

See, my idea has something for everyone!

 

[joxby]

See, my idea has something for everyone!

Nope..

Captain misery here..

Using film cameras is nice but, if it doesn't put a picture on a roll of film, I can hardly see the point, I mean if you just want a mech v man experience, just shoot the thing with no film in it.

I'm kinda lost with the mech camera that produces digital pictures because I don't want digital pictures in the first place.

 

[menthel]

Nope..

Captain misery here..

Using film cameras is nice but, if it doesn't put a picture on a roll of film, I can hardly see the point, I mean if you just want a mech v man experience, just shoot the thing with no film in it.

I'm kinda lost with the mech camera that produces digital pictures because I don't want digital pictures in the first place.

I was right, it gave you something to moan about!

Seems like a daft plan to shoot empty. I would like the option for both digital and film in the same camera and one that I actively enjoy using. Each to their own I guess.