Help with lighting please?

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Wellie

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Ellie
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Hiya! I am new to this- so sorry if I ask some very stupid questions!

I have been researching lighting for some time now, but different places are telling me different things, and I am not sure that what I am reading will suit what I want to do.

I am looking into doing high key (hope that is the correct term... is that the right term for white background photos? Haha.. said I was new to all this technical and lighting stuff!) photography from my own home. I have some old white duvet covers I am using as a backdrop, and a speedlite 430EX II flash for my camera. Now I am looking into buying some lighting, softboxes I think, but I want to know if they will do what I want them to do, and also how many I would need.

So, currently my main issue is shadows... when I take photos I end up with these horrible annoying shadows all the way around one side of my model. If I buy lights will it stop this for good? It takes up so much editing time and annoys me so much! And how many would I need to achieve this if it would work?

So yeah, basically just looking for some guidance on what to buy! I don't want to spend too much, because this is just a hobby of mine haha (an expensive one as my brother keeps pointing out to me!)

Thank you!
 
Righty, hopefully I can shed some light on your problems :)

The white background stuff is what a lot of people refer to as high-key, its not what I would understand high-key lighting to be... however, we don't need to argue about that now ;)
The reason you are getting harsh shadows, is becasue your using a single small (in comparison to your subject) harsh light source (your 430 on camera). The way to avoid the shadows would be to get the flash off your camera to one side at an angle. The easiest way to do this would be to get a lightstand and trigger the flash via sync chord or radio triggers.
The next thing to do if your after nice even soft lighting, is to somehow diffuse the light from your flash to create a more 'wrap around' effect. the best ways to go about doing this would be to invest in a softbox, or a shoot through umbrella. The softbox will give more control, but the umbrella will be cheaper, but less controllable due to light spill

If your trying to create pure white blown out backgrounds - your really need two separate lights to light the background nice and evenly - usually one from each side.
You then need at-least one more light to light your subject. I would suggest a 3 light kit to start of with, then you can expand from there, they usually come with a reflector and various light modifiers.

Since you mention working at home, I would suggest looking at the Lencarta Smartflash kits, they are great value for money.

Oh and a light meter would be a VERY good investment :)
 
Thank you so much! You have been the most helpful person so far in my lighting research haha (been looking for some info for about 2 months!)

Ok, so if I buy these softboxes, will I still need to take the flash off my camera?

And the two lights to light the background- would these also be softboxes? And what shape softboxes would be good? I don't really know the advantages of these different shapes they offer.

Thanks! I like the look of those lights- they are cheaper than a lot I have seen and will probably buy from there!

Lightmeter... sounds like a good idea haha!

Thanks so much!
 
Your very welcome - I was once in a similar situation as yourself :)

You will defiantly 100% want to take your flash off camera - if your buying studio lighting, then you will have no choice anyway. The only time you would really need a flash on the camera axis directly in-front of a model would be to provide fill light, but even then its shouldn't be directly in front (generally speaking - there are no real 'rules')

As far as softboxes are concerned, the bigger the softbox, the softer the light source due to having a larger diffusion area. for head/shoulder shots you can get away with 60x60cm softboxes, up to 150cm Octa boxes for full length work. some kind of principle for umbrellas. Reflective brollys provide a slightly harsher light.

Not sure why he would do that... unless he was using a ring flash or something, maybe he was using it to trigger the studio heads who knows :p

If you got that lencarta kit, they come with a radio trigger - so its win, win.

The lights on the background don't have to have softboxes, you can get background reflectors to help evenly distribute light, a lot of people use reflective brollys (they are cheap)

You get square and octa softboxes, theres not a huge amount of difference really, square boxes offer more scope for control as far as I'm concerned, but the octa offers a very large light source providing a very attractive catch-light in the eyes. I use a 150cm Octa for my main key light on subject, then smaller square softboxes for hair/rim lights :)

Hope that helps.
 
Ok thanks... think I understand now...

Hmm.. now I am going to have to work out where to get the money from I guess... haha...
 
Lighting is a very, very broad subject. There is always more than one way to achieve something, and not everyone will do things the same way. Best thing to do, is keep having a read around, maybe give Garry Edwards a message, he works for Lencarta and offers sound advice - he can better advise you on buying your kit :)

Keep in mind though, there are no set rules, only guides - some things will always look better than other, its just a case of try and try again until it works out for you :)
 
Yeah haha... wish there was somewhere I could just try a load of things out... would make life a whole lot easier!

Thanks!
 
Everything Rob has said above is right.
Take a look at the free tutorials on the Lencarta website, they may help to get you going
 
Wellie
The tips here are great however I must stress the best thing to do is get a book on lighting. These generally tell you all about background lights and what's needed, your fill light, hair light and main light.

Studio lights and camera flash like the 430 are pretty different and although you can mix, I'd suggest you don't.

The hardest style of lighting to start with is high key as you call it. A high Key image is one where the majority of tones are brighter than an average grey so it's not just white backgrounds that create a high key image.

To create the white background you need to be able to light the background evenly at around a stop or two brighter than your subject (light meter comes in handy at this point). What you may find in small places is that there is spill coming from those lights onto your subject so be careful of that (it's not easy but you can use a flag to block the light hitting the subject - a flag or gobo is something you place between the light and the subject to stop light hitting the subject.

Once you have your even background (normally a couple of lights will do that with just the standard reflectors) you can then look at the lighting on your subject. If you go for a softbox, the size is important as that determines a couple of things.

Larger the light source (in comparison to the subject), the softer the light will be. Small boxes will be soft when used very close to the subject. Also size determines how much of an area is lit. A softbox is a more directional light than a brolly and therefore more controllable. A large box will allow you to light a larger area like full length body shots and groups. I use an Elinchrom 53" Octa now and it is a far better box than the standard one that came with the kit but does cost a few quid! Lighting can very quicly deplete your pocket!!! By the way what is your budget?

As well as a main light you may require a fill light which subtly fills in the shadows, a hair light that provides a pop to your subjects hair and provides separation from the background (although I use that more on low key images).

I could go on and on!

Regards the 430 you have. Normally when you use that you use it in Auto ETTL mode. If you want to add it to your lighting you'll need to use it in Manual mode. Also if you are using studio lighting the camera MUST be in manual. THis is where the meter comes in handy and you can meter each light and get an overall exposure which you just dial into the camera.

Your choice of lights are down to budget. The lencarta lights look good value although the likes of Elinchrom and Bowens are bigger brands with a huge amount of light modifiers. I use 3 elinchrom lights but now am starting to feel like I need more (although space is my big issue).

Think about the bvackdrop you are using. You may need a background system to hold up your sheet or if you have some extra to spend look at something like the Lastolite HiLite (there's a cheaper version of it on here - see the threads from Flash In The Pan.

Regards a radio trigger, don't use your flash on the camera. Better to try a radio trigger and you can get very cheap ones on ebay or from FITP too.

Hope this helps a little too.

Cheers
JD
 
Wellie said:
Yeah haha... wish there was somewhere I could just try a load of things out... would make life a whole lot easier!

Thanks!
Click to expand...

YouTube has loads of videos too!
 
Hi Wellie, where are you based? I recently attended a workshop at Park Cameras in E.Sussex for studio lighting (portrait & product) learned so much for £119. You can only learn so much from books, and I did have a lot of it figured out from trial and error, but the little things I learned have made such a difference. I use Elemental 'B' 320w and just bought one of there booms and stand (product shots ideally need softbox directly above). But there starter kit had everything I needed to get going. Don't know if this is suitable but my product shots can be seen at www.jasmineway.co.uk.
 
Mod - if link is unsuitable then I will pm poster.
 
EOS_JD said:
Wellie
The tips here are great however I must stress the best thing to do is get a book on lighting. These generally tell you all about background lights and what's needed, your fill light, hair light and main light.

Larger the light source (in comparison to the subject), the softer the light will be. Small boxes will be soft when used very close to the subject. Also size determines how much of an area is lit. A softbox is a more directional light than a brolly and therefore more controllable. A large box will allow you to light a larger area like full length body shots and groups. I use an Elinchrom 53" Octa now and it is a far better box than the standard one that came with the kit but does cost a few quid! Lighting can very quicly deplete your pocket!!! By the way what is your budget?

Your choice of lights are down to budget. The lencarta lights look good value although the likes of Elinchrom and Bowens are bigger brands with a huge amount of light modifiers. I use 3 elinchrom lights but now am starting to feel like I need more (although space is my big issue).
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Hmmm ok... I just feel I am going to end up very lost in a lighting book!

Yeah.... your photos are stunning by the way (looked on your website)

Yeah haha! So I see from all these websites... my budget... haha... urrrrm... well, I had a budget, saw how much it all was and realised I would have to rethink LOL. I don't know to be honest.... I want to get good lights, as I know it will cost me less in the long run, but still, after my camera and extras, I don't have all that much to spare... I guess I will wait and see how much I can raise in the next few weeks!

Thanks- read through it all and it helps a lot again!

jim_j said:
Hi Wellie, where are you based? I recently attended a workshop at Park Cameras in E.Sussex for studio lighting (portrait & product) learned so much for £119. You can only learn so much from books, and I did have a lot of it figured out from trial and error, but the little things I learned have made such a difference. I use Elemental 'B' 320w and just bought one of there booms and stand (product shots ideally need softbox directly above). But there starter kit had everything I needed to get going. Don't know if this is suitable but my product shots can be seen at www.jasmineway.co.uk.
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I am in the south west of England... my local photographer offers courses also, but on top of the costs for the lights, there is no way I will be able to afford a course as well! Yeah, that's the thing- on stuff like this I like learning through trial and error, and would love to just go and test everything out! Thanks though :)
 
Talking with the pro on the course he mentioned that there are some really cheap deals on studio hire at the moment - so might be worth looking into, or any shops selling lighting might have a studio setup that you could try.
 
The problem with most books is that they often fail to explain the thinking behind good lighting, and do little more than provide examples of setups. Example setups aren't necessarily a bad thing in themselves, but they tend to encourage people just to work to a formulae, which creates technically acceptable results that are lacking in creativity and which take little or no account of the qualities of the individual subject - or, in other words, painting by numbers.

I say 'most books' because not all are the same. Light:Science & Magic doesn't bother with that sort of thing, it explains what light is, how to create it and how to use it - not the easiest read but probably the best, and by a considerable margin. And I hope that my own tutorials, in which I also try to cover lighting as a subject rather than as a recipe book, are also helpful.

Courses of course can be an ideal learning method, but you need to choose your course carefully. It's probably true to say that some course leaders, like some authors, only have time to provide courses because they can't hack it as photographers - a classic case of 'Those that can't do, teach'. And I came across a website a few days ago that is advertising for a badly paid trainee, and one of his/her many jobs will be to teach studio lighting:)

Trial and error can work but it works much better for some people than others. The problem with trial and error is that error is much more likely than trial unless you have the right tools to trial - there's an old saying that if the only tool you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.
 
Wellie said:
Hmmm ok... I just feel I am going to end up very lost in a lighting book!

Yeah.... your photos are stunning by the way (looked on your website)

Yeah haha! So I see from all these websites... my budget... haha... urrrrm... well, I had a budget, saw how much it all was and realised I would have to rethink LOL. I don't know to be honest.... I want to get good lights, as I know it will cost me less in the long run, but still, after my camera and extras, I don't have all that much to spare... I guess I will wait and see how much I can raise in the next few weeks!

Thanks- read through it all and it helps a lot again!
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Thanks for the kind words. I know I'm not an expert in lighting and am taking some online training myself. I will get some live training in portraits at some point. I'm a little beyond a beginner but still have a lot to learn :)

I read forums, read books and watched you tube videos and that was it! I played around and realised that the kit I had wasn't good enough so spent A LOT of cash buying gear. And I think I've still a few pounds to spend yet!!

Good luck an d keep posting here with your questions. No such thing as a stupid question and we're all here to help. Gary is the most experienced here I'd guess so listen to him :)

Regards lights, you don't need the most expensive. Elinchrom's D-Lites get a great write up and the new ones being launched now have Skyports (radio triggers) built in I believe! THis is very handy and the range of modifiers is fantastic - although can be dauntiung and expensive

I'm maybe a little biased because I use Elinchrom' lights (the 400BX units) - good power and consistent output. Lencarta lights are a great budget choice oo and Gary can offer advice on those - probably does everythoing the others do too and you have a personal contact for support) :)

The number of lights you need depends on what you're shooting and as stated earlier, white backgrounds require light so it can take two lights to create that with an additional light for your subject. If you rethink that and look at low key, you could get away with just one or two llights then add to that later.

Such a hard choice :)

My advice is get at least two lights and build from that. Learn what you can and can't do and when you feel you've outgrown what you have just add.
 
Thanks everyone.. you are all being very helpful :)

Ok, so, here is another question! How many watts will I need my lights to be? I am planning on getting three... my urm.. studio (haha... I just convert my kitchen!) is only very small (but can just about fit the lights in correctly I think!)

Thank you!
 
Wellie said:
Thanks everyone.. you are all being very helpful :)

Ok, so, here is another question! How many watts will I need my lights to be? I am planning on getting three... my urm.. studio (haha... I just convert my kitchen!) is only very small (but can just about fit the lights in correctly I think!)

Thank you!
Click to expand...

It's actually Watt Seconds (W-s) or joules (j), not watts, and as it explains in this article that I pointed you too, it depends on the type of photography you're doing, the amount of space you have etc - but something like 200 - 300 will be right for you.
 
Yes if you only have a small area to shoot in you don't need a lot of power at all. My space is vary small and I use 400W/s lights but I don't really need that power. The only time I'd need more is if I'm using outside and trying to overpower the sunlight!

200W/s is plenty in a small area.
 
Garry Edwards said:
It's actually Watt Seconds (W-s) or joules (j), not watts, and as it explains in this article that I pointed you too, it depends on the type of photography you're doing, the amount of space you have etc - but something like 200 - 300 will be right for you.
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Yeah.. sorry.... should know that haha. Ok read the section of the article about W-s... would 180 be ok or not? I am not sure how much of a difference 20 W-s makes... it is generally a light room anyway (cream walls, white ceiling and of course I will have my white background etc set up).... just found a good deal for a kit that comes with 3 180 flash heads, 2 softboxes, one silver umbrella, one white umbrella and a few other things...

Thanks :)
 
Regards the room, the brightness should not matter - you do not want ANY ambient light in your image. When you set your lights, you set say f8 for your subject, switch off all your lights and you should have a black image. If you have ambient light in ytour image, you need to increase the shutter speed to remove it (up to the cameras max sync speed) Ambient light will interfere with the exposures and colour balance of the image which you don't want.

What kit are you looking at? Don't spend your money on rubbish then regret it. You pay for what you get!
 
EOS_JD said:
Regards the room, the brightness should not matter - you do not want ANY ambient light in your image. When you set your lights, you set say f8 for your subject, switch off all your lights and you should have a black image. If you have ambient light in ytour image, you need to increase the shutter speed to remove it (up to the cameras max sync speed) Ambient light will interfere with the exposures and colour balance of the image which you don't want.

What kit are you looking at? Don't spend your money on rubbish then regret it. You pay for what you get!
Click to expand...

Ah ok.. thanks- will make sure to shut all the blinds etc then.... that really helps- thanks :)

Well, looking at some reviews I have changed my mind haha.. yeah.... that's just it I guess.... I am rubbish at making decisions as well, so I hate looking to buy something because I am always changing my mind!
 
Wellie said:
Ah ok.. thanks- will make sure to shut all the blinds etc then.... that really helps- thanks :)

Well, looking at some reviews I have changed my mind haha.. yeah.... that's just it I guess.... I am rubbish at making decisions as well, so I hate looking to buy something because I am always changing my mind!
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So do I :) Buy the best you can afford. But it's not just about the lights - Modifiers make a big difference too but it's amazing what mnany can do wih a couple of small flash units and a couple of cheap brollies!
 
So I am looking at the lencarta 2 head (umbrella and soft box) kit at the moment... I know I won't be able to light up the background with only 2 lights, but if I use the two lights, will it still look ok if I just dodge the background to make it white on photoshop? Or will it look out of place or something? Sorry, I am so new to all this! And what exactly can I achieve with reflectors? They say a few things on the website but is anyone able to explain the effects of these please? And also how I would set them up to do these things? Thanks...
 
You really do need an extra light on the background, and preferably two. Wasting a lot of time messing around in PS to solve a problem that's so easily avoided in the first place doesn't make sense to me...

Reflectors - Provided that the light is a broad light source (for example a softbox or an umbrella NOT a narrow light source such as a honeycombed light or a spotlight) always 'spills' some light that can be picked up by a reflector and bounced back onto a different part of the subject to lighten shadows. Used with care, reflectors can often do the job of an extra light.
 
Garry Edwards said:
You really do need an extra light on the background, and preferably two. Wasting a lot of time messing around in PS to solve a problem that's so easily avoided in the first place doesn't make sense to me...

Reflectors - Provided that the light is a broad light source (for example a softbox or an umbrella NOT a narrow light source such as a honeycombed light or a spotlight) always 'spills' some light that can be picked up by a reflector and bounced back onto a different part of the subject to lighten shadows. Used with care, reflectors can often do the job of an extra light.
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I haven't got the money to buy more lights.... :( I have photoshop- and just wanted to know if I just dodged the background, would it create the same effect?

Thanks
 
2 lights are more than enough. One light at 45deg. to the background (and behind your subject) and a reflector in the same position on the other side. I usually use a shoot through umbrella just to control the lighting a little bit more. Repeat the same process with your lights for the product. Good separation between product and background is also a good idea. If you need more light then you still have the speedlight. Cheap radio/infrared trigger and hotshoe attachment works well, plus the flash from the speedlight will also fire the heads. Being a fairly small room I would imagine 2 heads to be more than enough. In the middle of reading 'Light, science & Magic' which I highly recommend. Good luck and experimenting is still one of the best ways to learn.
 
jim_j said:
Why?
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Because they are trying to do the impossible - the main subject and the background are in fact two separate subjects, and they need to be lit separately. By trying to use 'spare' light to bounce off of a background that is far too close anyway, what they have done is to destroy edge detail, put highlights where they are not wanted and not put them where they are wanted.

The problem with the internet is that literally anyone, regardless of the level of their skills or knowledge, can claim to be an expert - and can even sell courses on how to do it! A classic case of a lost sheep masquerading as a sheepdog:'(
 
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