Help with legality.

Whilst I don't question the legality so long as the gym management advise their clientèle, I still think that there will be some people who may not be happy to be photographed in their gym gear etc. The gym management also won't want to upset it's punters. The gym calls the shots at the end of the day, I'd leave the notices etc up to them.
 
If you take photographs of anybody, anywhere and they have not signed a model release, you should only use them for editorial use. If you use them for commercial use, without a signed release, you could be in an unpleasant situation, if someone decides they don't like it.

It is not illegal to do what you're doing, just not good practice.
 
treeman said:
If you take photographs of anybody, anywhere and they have not signed a model release, you should only use them for editorial use. If you use them for commercial use, without a signed release, you could be in an unpleasant situation, if someone decides they don't like it.

It is not illegal to do what you're doing, just not good practice.
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Have you read what I'm doing?

I'll state again:

I've put many notices up around the gym and reception will tell all members on the day that there is photography going on, if they are in the photos they may be used online for the website and if they don't want to be photographed a simple gesture to the photographer will suffice.

Sounds ok to me.
 
Phil Young said:
Sounds ok to me.
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It might to you, but it wouldn't to a court!

On the day, they might be perfectly happy with you taking pics, but what happens if they change their mind when they're published?

I'm sure you'll be absolutely fine, and nothing bad will happen, and what I'm talking about is worst case scenario, but you did ask :)
 
treeman said:
It might to you, but it wouldn't to a court!

On the day, they might be perfectly happy with you taking pics, but what happens if they change their mind when they're published?
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Then the court we be presented with an email from me to reception with the notice which cclearlystates their presence means they are ok with the photography, to the team working on Saturday informing them that my notice is on every entrance, reception and also the changing rooms but to also let members know.

And on what grounds could they take it to court anyway? - that they are in a photo without permission? It's not illegal, it wouldn't even get into court.
 
Phil Young said:
And on what grounds could they take it to court anyway? - that they are in a photo without permission? It's not illegal, it wouldn't even get into court.
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As the photographer, they will have no claim against you. There is nothing to prevent you doing the actual photography.

However, people have the right not to have their likeness used commercially, i.e. in advertising, but any claim would be against the person who used the images, not the photographer.

In your position I would just do what was being asked and let the gym owner worry about the rest of it.


Steve.
 
Phil Young said:
Then the court we be presented with an email from me to reception with the notice which cclearlystates their presence means they are ok with the photography, to the team working on Saturday informing them that my notice is on every entrance, reception and also the changing rooms but to also let members know.

And on what grounds could they take it to court anyway? - that they are in a photo without permission? It's not illegal, it wouldn't even get into court.
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It doesn't matter how many times you've told them, you could even stamp the damn email on their heads, if they haven't signed, they could potentially sue you, or as Steve said it may fall on the club, but you would have a contract with the club to supply the images, and the only way I see that you'd be covered is if that contract stated the images were for editorial use only, then it would definitely be the clubs fault, if they are use differently.

And yes, as I said earlier its not illegal or a criminal offence, but as Steve said,
"people have the right not to have their likeness used commercially,...." and thats why they might choose to sue.
 
Phil Young said:
The marketing director is happy with it...as far as I'm concerned that's fine for me.
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At the very least, you should let the management know of the potential risks. They appear to me to be rather higher than you're inclined to accept. Show them this thread for a start.
 
I also don't understand why you're being so stubborn. You don't need anything as heavy handed as a full blown Model Release full of legalese.
 
HoppyUK said:
I also don't understand why you're being so stubborn. You don't need anything as heavy handed as a full blown Model Release full of legalese.
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...we don't "need" anything. If people want to go ahead with a model release form for whatever reason then that's their choice - I don't understand why everyone is creating such a big thing over it. We are letting people know, they can opt out if they wish, what's the problem??

I have to say, the response I'm getting is a bit like photographers advising other photographers not to take photos of children because of the ignorance of others thinking they are up to no good.
 
Okay, put any 'need' and legalities to one side. Now, since we've established that it's actually the Health Club that ultimately carries the can for whatever they put on their website etc, let them decide what their own risks might be. In the light of the manageress' original concern, and this thread, you have a responsibility to your client to make them aware of what they might be letting themselves in for. Then you've done your bit.
 
HoppyUK said:
Okay, put any 'need' and legalities to one side. Now, since we've established that it's actually the Health Club that ultimately carries the can for whatever they put on their website etc, let them decide what their own risks might be. In the light of the manageress' original concern, and this thread, you have a responsibility to your client to make them aware of what they might be letting themselves in for. Then you've done your bit.
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Come on Richard, don't insult their intelligence by thinking they didn't have the same concerns.

I showed them the same documents I put forward here since I knew it was just a case of ignorance, and they are fine with it. The manageress had concerns over the legalities. That's been put to rest.

If you researched you'd find this is actually a very common way to do things... people are going on really blinded to the method.

If people didn't want to be photographed they can let me know, what's the beef?
 
If you take a picture of me in a gym and then use it for advertising, then I will wait a couple of weeks or so until you have it all printed up and then ask you for a large sum of money for use of my image as an endorsement of your business.

Your alternatives then are to

1. Pay up
2. Negotiate
3. Assume that I won't follow through on my attempts to get this money off you - it would be hard for me to make it work but it will cost you time and aggravation defending yourself.
4. Show me the signed paper work that says I explicitly agreed to this in advance and so won't have a leg to stand on.

THAT is what a model release is for.

"Negative ticking" is dubious at best in this case. I can simply say I didn't see the signs. Very hard for you to prove I did.
 
JonathanRyan said:
If you take a picture of me in a gym and then use it for advertising, then I will wait a couple of weeks or so until you have it all printed up and then ask you for a large sum of money for use of my image as an endorsement of your business.

Your alternatives then are to

1. Pay up
2. Negotiate
3. Assume that I won't follow through on my attempts to get this money off you - it would be hard for me to make it work but it will cost you time and aggravation defending yourself.
4. Show me the signed paper work that says I explicitly agreed to this in advance and so won't have a leg to stand on.

THAT is what a model release is for.

"Negative ticking" is dubious at best in this case. I can simply say I didn't see the signs. Very hard for you to prove I did.
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Likewise if a model release was signed, one could say it was forged.

You wouldn't get very far though because it's not against the law to make money frok someone else's face without their consent. Plus, in terms of awareness on private property, it's is enough just to have a sign up that's all that would need to be said. Ignorance to that isn't the property owner's concern.
 
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I'm baffled why you're asking for advice......

Anybody remember when Diana (yes that Diana) was photographed in a gym? Bizarrely I used to go to that gym....
 
JonathanRyan said:
I'm baffled why you're asking for advice......
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Annoyingly, I wasn't. I was asking about the legalities, I got opinions that wasn't very helpful and a load of advice that I didn't ask for.

I had a plan of action already, just needed confirmation of the legal side of things. Other people would have a model release, fine, but that's not what I this thread was about - it was a simple question of is it legal to take photos of members of a private gym...
 
JonathanRyan said:
If you take a picture of me in a gym and then use it for advertising, then I will wait a couple of weeks or so until you have it all printed up and then ask you for a large sum of money for use of my image as an endorsement of your business.
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Then you will be asking the wrong person. You would need to direct your request towards the user of the image - in this case, the gym owner.


Phil Young said:
it was a simple question of is it legal to take photos of members of a private gym...
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Simple answer - Yes.


Steve.
 
Phil Young said:
Annoyingly, I wasn't. I was asking about the legalities, I got opinions that wasn't very helpful and a load of advice that I didn't ask for.

I had a plan of action already, just needed confirmation of the legal side of things. Other people would have a model release, fine, but that's not what I this thread was about - it was a simple question of is it legal to take photos of members of a private gym...
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if you want a definitive legal answer, speak to a solicitor. also your OP says that the gyms general manager oposes the idea because they think its not legal - they aren't going to change their mind because a bunch of people on a forum say he's wrong - a definitive legal answer might actually sway him
 
I have to agree with what Pete and some of the others say, maybe your professional insurance comes with a legal advise line you can contact for advise on the issue, since if this were to develop into a court case in the future it's likely they will be the company responsible/liable for any awards
 
FWIW, I think that legally you're on very thin ice at a gym where there is a high level of privacy expected.

Suggestion. Have a pile of these forms at reception, make sure everyone signs it one way or the other, brief all staff on exactly how the photos might be used in case they're asked (they will be), and make sure you get the names of everyone included in all images on the day.

And even when you've got this agreement in place, it would be prudent for the gym to get specific further permission in some situations, eg the post-Xmas Fight The Flab ads in the local paper that run under the headline "Get rid of that fat arse and bingo wings".

Dear Member,

You may notice that that we have a photographer here today, to take some photos for use on our website and other promotions. If you would prefer not to be included in any photos, please tell a member of staff and we will ensure your wishes are respected.

Please tick one of the tick boxes below, and add your signature.

Many thanks for you cooperation.

Please tick one:
I am happy to have my photo taken and for any images to be used in gym promotions.
I would prefer not to have my photo taken, or to be included in any images.

Signed............................... Print Name................................
 
Phil Young said:
Annoyingly, I wasn't. I was asking about the legalities, I got opinions that wasn't very helpful and a load of advice that I didn't ask for.
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It's an internet forum. Amazing that such things happen.

Your OP.

Phil Young said:
Hi folks. Bit of help needed if you please :)

I'm need to photograph members of a gym (private property) and the general manager has it in her head that it's illegal to then publish photos with people in without written consent frist from that or those people.

I intend on putting a notice up saying there is photography going on and your presence means acceptance blah blah blah, but can anybody point me in the right direction of something in writing that backs up my advice of not needing permission.

Thanksin advance,
Phil.
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So, no, I can't point you at something in writing that says you don't need permission (largely because the way the law works it's not likely - usually it says what you cannot do) but I have provided you with several things in writing saying that you should get permission - i.e. that it's highly advisable. Some of them say you must get permission for some of the uses to which your photos may be put.

At this point, I'm out.
 
I find it amazing that so many photographers here have no idea about the difference between editorial and commercial photographs.
 
HoppyUK said:
FWIW, I think that legally you're on very thin ice at a gym where there is a high level of privacy expected.

Suggestion. Have a pile of these forms at reception, make sure everyone signs it one way or the other, brief all staff on exactly how the photos might be used in case they're asked (they will be), and make sure you get the names of everyone included in all images on the day.

And even when you've got this agreement in place, it would be prudent for the gym to get specific further permission in some situations, eg the post-Xmas Fight The Flab ads in the local paper that run under the headline "Get rid of that fat arse and bingo wings".

Dear Member,

You may notice that that we have a photographer here today, to take some photos for use on our website and other promotions. If you would prefer not to be included in any photos, please tell a member of staff and we will ensure your wishes are respected.

Please tick one of the tick boxes below, and add your signature.

Many thanks for you cooperation.

Please tick one:
I am happy to have my photo taken and for any images to be used in gym promotions.
I would prefer not to have my photo taken, or to be included in any images.

Signed............................... Print Name................................
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Richard,

I appreciate you going to such an effort in a bit to help - your opinion comes with respect and normally carries a lot of knowledgeable weight to it.

However...

In your proposed method, the logistics are just too complicated.

In my method, all somebody has to do is let me know they don't want to be photographed, in yours, against 200 people, it's just too complicated and again I stress - unnecessary.

Pete:

The GM saw the same thing posted earlier by me and can see there isn't a problem with it - the owner of a private establishment can impose rules RE photography and it is for the public to go along with them.

Bottom line is - members are aware, they can easily opt out and in response to the op, it's not illegal. Why make a problem when there isn't one??
 
Phil Young said:
Can you elaborate please?
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Sure. Taking a "news" photo, or should I say one in the interest of the public, is very different to using it for commercial gain. Someone mentioned photographing Diana in a gym; that has absolutely no relation to taking photos in a gym and then using them for marketing.

To your original question, it's legal to take photos pretty much anywhere but there are some exception. However it is certainly not legal to publish any type of photo. If your contact at the gym has cleared it then great but I can say if I found a photo of me in my gym's marketing material then I would be leaving that gym ASAP.
 
You're asking the wrong question. It is not whether 'it is legal to take photos in the gym' but whether 'is it legal to take photos in the gym and use those images for commercial purposes without the explicit and written consent of the people used in the images'.
 
Steve Smith said:
Simple answer - Yes.
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If only that were true.

It's easy to think of laws that could potentially be broken by taking pictures in a gym. It also seems that it's very unlikely that Phil will do any of those things. But the only clear cut answer to

"Is it legal to take pictures is a gym?" is "it depends".

@Phil Young - you're getting some good advice and some frankly dubious advice. But the idea that it is "too hard" to get explicit consent isn't one that will hold water.
 
srichards said:
You're asking the wrong question. It is not whether 'it is legal to take photos in the gym' but whether 'is it legal to take photos in the gym and use those images for commercial purposes without the explicit and written consent of the people used in the images'.
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This is where the thread has gone and as far as I can see...it is definitely legal, perhaps morally wrong if people wasn't aware though...
 
JonathanRyan said:
If only that were true.

It's easy to think of laws that could potentially be broken by taking pictures in a gym. It also seems that it's very unlikely that Phil will do any of those things. But the only clear cut answer to

"Is it legal to take pictures is a gym?" is "it depends".

@Phil Young - you're getting some good advice and some frankly dubious advice. But the idea that it is "too hard" to get explicit consent isn't one that will hold water.
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But Jon this is where people aren't listening I feel.

Their consent is them being there and having their photo taken. This is what the notixe says "your presence means you acknowledged this notice and agree to having your photo used for our website".

In the event of the worst case scenario it isn't for the gym (a private establishment) to show signed consent, it's to prove their was a notice that could be easily seen.

"I didn't sign anything" means nothing.
 
You clearly want to do this regardless of what anybody says so I'd suggest going ahead. It's very unlikely there will be any trouble. Even if you were breaking a law, the police have far better things to worry about.

Phil Young said:
Their consent is them being there and having their photo taken. This is what the notixe says "your presence means you acknowledged this notice and agree to having your photo used for our website".
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No. My presence in a gym means I want to go to the gym and work out (or maybe just chat over a cross trainer, or eat masses of cake at their juice bar). But nobody got up that morning and thought "I know, I'll go to the gym and be photographed". Worse, when they get there they don't get to go "oh, it's photoshoot day, not to worry. I don't want my picture taken so I'll just go home". They have already paid for their membership and already committed to going on that day.

That's very different from buying a ticket for an event and being told at time of purchase that you will be filmed/photographed. In that case you can decide you don't want to go after all and not pay for the ticket.

But like I say, do it. What's the worse that could happen?
 
Phil Young said:
But Jon this is where people aren't listening I feel.

Their consent is them being there and having their photo taken. This is what the notixe says "your presence means you acknowledged this notice and agree to having your photo used for our website".

In the event of the worst case scenario it isn't for the gym (a private establishment) to show signed consent, it's to prove their was a notice that could be easily seen.

"I didn't sign anything" means nothing.
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It sounds like you will go ahead with this no matter what anyone here says and without attaining any proper legal advice.
 
Phil, with respect I think you're being naïve.

And the more I think about this, the potential (even likely) repercussions and the logistical difficulties of working around them (my guess is a lot of members will opt out, given the choice, making the whole shoot impractical), the more I think you'd be better off getting the gym to select a few good looking members and have them properly signed up with a Model Release and arrange a specific shoot. Some members will welcome the chance to show off their fitness, others will tell you to FO.

Offer them a free month extension to their membership and a couple of free prints.

Good luck bud :)
 
Steve Smith said:
If it's that easy, please list some of them (real laws, not imaginary).


Steve.
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Srsly?

OK, photographing banknotes (there's a specific law - I can't remember which one and CBA to Google) - I think there is some odd legislation around credit cards as well. Concealed cameras in showers (covered in indecency legislation also human rights violation - yeah, really), indecent picture of minors (ditto indecency act), photographs of pretty much any illegal act if the photographer encouraged or abetted the act itself, photographing the posters on the wall could be a civil offence (copyright) but if that's part of a commercial enterprise then it can become criminal.

Like I say, I'm not suggesting any of these are going to happen but there are plenty if you've a mind to it. Some of them possibly aren't even silly.
 
I was really thinking about laws relating to the OP's case of taking photographs of members of a gym with the owner's permission. Not some fanciful nonsense like taking a banknote in and photographing it. That is completely irrelevant to this case.

And the OP isn't planning on taking photographs in the changing rooms or showers so that too is irrelevant, as is the bit about photographing the posters.

Now. Any laws which might restrict what he is actually planning to do?..... No, I didn't think so!

graphilly said:
It sounds like you will go ahead with this no matter what anyone here says and without attaining any proper legal advice.
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Which is exactly what I would do in the same scenario.


Steve.
 
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Steve Smith said:
Now. Any laws which might restrict what he is actually planning to do?..... No, I didn't think so!
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No, and what you miss often in these sorts of discussion is the gym owner presumably wants to maintain a good relationship with their clients. Steaming in all pugnacious quoting legalities is not the way to do that (just IMHO)
 
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