Help with Hilite setup

landerson07

landerson07

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Hey all, finally got things setup today and tried my level best to get some pleasing results, but alas this never happened lol.

I've watched the videos and read the posts but it wasn't as easy as I thought it was going to be.

My process for setting up is:

1. Erect the hilite (6x7) and put a Yongnuo 468-ii in either side angled towards the rear half
2. Use my Sekonic l308-s and meter f8 across the majority of the Hilite
3. Turn the flashes off then meter the key light, a Yongnuo yn-560 ii in a shoot through westcott umbrella, to f5.6
4. Take some shots, I think I set my camera, Nikon d3100, to 1/160 shutter speed (any faster and it caused problems), aperture to f7.1/f8.0 and ISO to 400

The key light is to camera left (right of the subjects)

Now, if I closed down beyond f8.0 the blinkies for the hilite stopped but the resulting pictures at f8 seem over exposed.

I know I need to practice getting catch lights etc but for now I'm just trying to work on the basics.

I figured that given I had metered the hilite and the key light then things would just work :(

So, what am I doing wrong??

1. Hilite too bright or not bright enough?
2. Subject to close?
3. Key light too bright?
4. Key light too close?
5. All of the above and much more lol

I've posted some sample images SOC so you can see what I mean and hopefully help me

Thanks in advance
Lee

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One thing at a time,

Hilite too bright, I'm guessing your 308 was too near the hilite when metering. Try metering near where the subject is.
 
admirable said:
One thing at a time,

Hilite too bright, I'm guessing your 308 was too near the hilite when metering. Try metering near where the subject is.
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mike weeks said:
are you using a lens hood?

Mike
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Yeah I had the meter about an inch from the white side so will try holding it further away.

I'm using a Nikon 35mm 1.8G with the supplied lens hood. Thinking on now though the key light was ahead of me and so I would have got flair from the rear of the umbrella. Maybe the softbox would be better? or just try to stand so the rear of the umbrella isn't in my line of sight?
 
When metering the background, are you pointing the meter towards the background itself? Sorry if this sounds a bit dumbass question but the pictures look exactly like a friend of mines who was pointing the invercone at the camera when metering.
Dean
 
Yeah I was pointing it at the hilite. I was confident when setting it up that I had metered it all correctly, but the resulting pictures weren't what I had envisaged
 
Lots of light!! :)

I use hilites regularly... For a starting point, I meter the hilite for f11, right across, using two lights for both the 6x7 and 8x7, but you can get away with one light in the 6x7 and smaller...My subject gets metered at f9, and if I use an addition fill, that goes at f5.6. Camera at 200 iso, 1/125 speed at f9.... And tweak if need be. I meter about 4-5 inches away from the hilite.

But that's just me...
 
First things first. Forget the videos, some are completely wrong on how to light a Hi-Lite.

Turn on lights in Hi-Lite and meter as you have done ensuring that the back of your subject (lit by the Hi-Lite) is at whatever setting you want and add one third of a stop. For example F8.3.

Turn on your key light - which if you are only using only one needs to be central- otherwise you will get an imbalance of light across the Hi-Lite as the spill from an off centre key light will brighten the one side of the Hi-Lite too much (as per your image one). The reading to the front of your subject should then be metered at F8.

The Hi-lite only needs to be 0.3 - 0.5 of a stop brighter than the key light.

If you are going to have your key light off centre, then try this method above, but only have one light in the Hi-Lite; and ensure that light is diagonally opposite your key light.
 
I'll try f11 tomorrow! But wouldn't that give me more light?

Was I right in turning the hilite lights off when metering the subject?

How close can your subject be to the hilite?
 
The Noir Dude said:
First things first. Forget the videos, some are completely wrong on how to light a Hi-Lite.

Turn on lights in Hi-Lite and meter as you have done ensuring that the back of your subject (lit by the Hi-Lite) is at whatever setting you want and add one third of a stop. For example F8.3.

Turn on your key light - which if you are only using only one needs to be central- otherwise you will get an imbalance of light across the Hi-Lite as the spill from an off centre key light will brighten the one side of the Hi-Lite too much (as per your image one). The reading to the front of your subject should then be metered at F8.

The Hi-lite only needs to be 0.3 - 0.5 of a stop brighter than the key light.

If you are going to have your key light off centre, then try this method above, but only have one light in the Hi-Lite; and ensure that light is diagonally opposite your key light.
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Brilliant thank you! That makes much more sense!

Can't wait to try it tomorrow

Sorry, just to clarify do I turn the hilite off when I meter the front light?
 
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Stick with your F8 so you don't get confused. Meter the back of your subject at F9. Leave your Hi-Lite lights on and then meter the front of the subject and adjust key light output until you get a reading of F8. Then set your aperture to F8.

As Mike Weeks mentioned earlier you seem to be getting an incredible amount of flare into the image. Get your lighting balanced first and then look at the flare issue. One step at a time.

The subject can be a matter of inches away from the Hi-Lite
 
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The Noir Dude said:
Stick with your F8 so you don't get confused. Meter the back of your subject at F9. Leave your Hi-Lite lights on and then meter the front of the subject and adjust key light output until you get a reading of F8.

The subject can be a matter of inches away from the Hi-Lite
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Back of my subject? Sorry new to all this! Do you mean meter the hilite like I have been?

Edit: just checked how I had my room setup and the key light was setup by some shiny cupboard doors! Is it likely that this caused the flare? Light bouncing back into my scene and camera?
 
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Yes. You are measuring the amount of light that is falling on to the back of your subject. Then when you add your key light and meter it you want to ensure that you get a reading of F8 at the front of your subject.

To make sure it is all balanced properly (with ALL lights switched on) check the rear of the subject is still metering at F9. If it's not you need to adjust all the lights until you get a reading of F9 behind the subject and F8 at the front (again with all lights switched on).

Position your key light centrally though!
 
The Noir Dude said:
You can also use this method for the 8'x7'
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Hmmmm... Sure but not without pp to even the light out. I aim for minimal if no pp.. Suppose it depends on what you're willing to settle for really.
 
sunnyside_up said:
Hmmmm... Sure but not without pp to even the light out. I aim for minimal if no pp.. Suppose it depends on what you're willing to settle for really.
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I've seen it done with no pp straight from the camera
 
sunnyside_up said:
Hmmmm... Sure but not without pp to even the light out. I aim for minimal if no pp.. Suppose it depends on what you're willing to settle for really.
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With two lights do you offset them? i.e one higher than the other? If so how do you position them?
 
Sorry, I thought you were referring to one light in a 8x7
 
As above, take one step at a time, ignore the videos made by 'experts' who don't even understand the basics and only very slightly overexpose the Hi-Lite. It needs to be just white, that's all.

Flare is a big problem. Part of it is almost certainly caused by over lighting the Hi-Lite but not all.

You mentioned using a shoot through umbrella in your first post, if this is in front of the camera then a lot of light will hit the lens and cause flare. TBH, shoot through umbrellas are a pretty poor choice unless they are behind the camera, used for on axis fill.

What you didn't mention was your lens hood - if you aren't using a lens hood, or if it's a poor, petal-shaped one that is more ornamental than functional then this, coupled with the use of the shoot through umbrella, will create flare.
 
This is 8'x7' Hi-Lite lit with one light in the Hi-Lite (pictured right) As shot, no post processing. Subject standing almost against the background.
Background is one third stop higher than front light.


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Garry Edwards said:
As above, take one step at a time, ignore the videos made by 'experts' who don't even understand the basics and only very slightly overexpose the Hi-Lite. It needs to be just white, that's all.

Flare is a big problem. Part of it is almost certainly caused by over lighting the Hi-Lite but not all.

You mentioned using a shoot through umbrella in your first post, if this is in front of the camera then a lot of light will hit the lens and cause flare. TBH, shoot through umbrellas are a pretty poor choice unless they are behind the camera, used for on axis fill.

What you didn't mention was your lens hood - if you aren't using a lens hood, or if it's a poor, petal-shaped one that is more ornamental than functional then this, coupled with the use of the shoot through umbrella, will create flare.
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I'm using the lens hood that came with my Nikon lens! I'll try the softbox tomorrow or reposition the umbrella!

I'll post some new pics then
 
landerson07 said:
I'll try f11 tomorrow! But wouldn't that give me more light?

Was I right in turning the hilite lights off when metering the subject?

How close can your subject be to the hilite?
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This was taken at the settings that I mentioned above, and that I normally start with... I used a wee bit of exposure compensation on this.


Photobooth party by BethBotterill, on Flickr

The kids were standing about 6-8 inches away from the Hilite. Personally, I always meter my lights individually, but as you can see from this thread and any advice regards to the HiLite, everyone has their own way, and as long as the outcome is what you want to acheive, then you do what works for you.
Now you have options to try. :)
 
landerson07 said:
Is that with a key and fill light? What diffusers do you use?
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That was just a key, using a 90x90 softbox just to my right.
 
So quite central for the softbox then like the noir dude recommended? I've got a 60cm softbox I will try tomorrow
 
To be honest the bottom of that Hilite looks darker that the top?

sunnyside_up said:
This was taken at the settings that I mentioned above, and that I normally start with... I used a wee bit of exposure compensation on this.


Photobooth party by BethBotterill, on Flickr

The kids were standing about 6-8 inches away from the Hilite. Personally, I always meter my lights individually, but as you can see from this thread and any advice regards to the HiLite, everyone has their own way, and as long as the outcome is what you want to acheive, then you do what works for you.
Now you have options to try. :)
Click to expand...
 
I use blinkies to set exposure for the HiLite, easier and more accurate than a meter. Good for positioning the lights for most even brightness too.

Set up the HiLite so the exposure is there or thereabouts, then tweak aperture/ISO/power so that it's just on the brink of blowing, then push it 1/3rd stop over. The important area is immediately behind the subject and it doesn't matter if the corners are a touch grey - easy to clean up in post processing.

Then adjust the front/main subject light to balance - basically just keep turning it up until it looks right. If you then meter that correctly, ie meter facing the HiLite right against the surface, then meter immediately in front of the subject's face, towards the camera, you should find there no more than about half a stop between them. Don't be surprised if the actual numbers don't tally exactly with camera settings, meters are like that (another story) but go by the blinkies and histogram.

To minimise flare, screen off all areas of the HiLite outside the subject area and ensure no light from any other source is hitting the lens. Remove any protection filter and fit a good lens hood - not that it'll do much if the screening etc has been done properly.
 
OK, so set up again today but changed the room around. On the previous photos there was an open window camera left that I thought could be contributing to the flare.

Here are two photos, the first is without flash showing that there is no ambient light affecting the shot, the second was with my willing subject sat only inches from the hilite. There is no other lights other than the hilite lighting this. I think they look better but still bright on his paws.

Settings were hilite at f9, iso 400, 1/160 ss, f5.6 aperture to ensure the background blinkies remained.

The wall camera left is cream coloured and literally 10" from the hilite. Will putting a black divide along the wall make things better?? or hanging a black sheet?

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Still tons of flare. Have you read my post above? Why is the background 1.3 stops brighter? Are you metering correctly? Have you screened off all areas of the HiLite outside the subject area? Have you got a filter on the lens? Any smears on the lens?
 
No smears, not screened off (see my comments above), no filter!

And for metering I'm firing the flashes with the meter facing the hilite!

I've just tried again and metered the hilite at f8! If I then put my camera aperture at f8 but the blinkies don't flash at all, I have to open up to f5.6 for the background to be white?

I'm maybe doing something blatantly wrong but with this being my first attempt I'm struggling to see what!

Sorry for being so newb
 
landerson07 said:
No smears, not screened off (see my comments above), no filter!

And for metering I'm firing the flashes with the meter facing the hilite!

I've just tried again and metered the hilite at f8! If I then put my camera aperture at f8 but the blinkies don't flash at all, I have to open up to f5.6 for the background to be white?

I'm maybe doing something blatantly wrong but with this being my first attempt I'm struggling to see what!

Sorry for being so newb
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Assuming the HiLite is no too far over-exposed, ie blinkies only just flashing then the problem is not screening off the HiLite. It cannot be anything else, if you have also eliminated all other light sources that could possibly be falling on the lens (even if they're outside the image area) and the lens is clean and without a filter.

What lens is it? Some are prone to flare than others.
 
HoppyUK said:
Assuming the HiLite is no too far over-exposed, ie blinkies only just flashing then the problem is not screening off the HiLite. It cannot be anything else, if you have also eliminated all other light sources that could possibly be falling on the lens (even if they're outside the image area) and the lens is clean and without a filter.

What lens is it? Some are prone to flare than others.
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It's the Nikon 35mm 1.8g with lens hood attached! The lens is only 4 months old!

The flashes are bare in the hilite and angled towards the back! Is that correct?
 
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landerson07 said:
It's the Nikon 35mm 1.8g with lens hood attached! The lens is only 4 months old!
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Lens is a bit wide, meaning that it will include more of the HiLite. Have you got something longer, and move back a little?

If that doesn't fix it, you have got to screen off the unused areas of the HiLite. Should do that anyway.
 
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