help with 7d focus issues with test shots

Willid1 said:
Hi Tony

I have had a 7D for just over a year now, and I do symapathise that you are having problems.

Coming from about 30 years of film SLR use I thought I knew how to take pictures but my 40D a few years ago and now my 7D have forced me to reasess ALL aspects of my photographic technique.

The 7D is indeed a great camera but is MERCILESS in exposing poor technique weather it be focusing or exposure and often a combination of both. I would say most of the "my 7D is not working properly" posts you see on the internet are user error.

It might have a brain the size of a planet but when you press the shutter the 7D has no more idea of what you are trying to take a picture of than it did before (ie none) I know they say it analyses several zillion possible likely subject possibilities and asesses all the colour data etc, and I think in certain situations that does help (some it does not!) but really it's up to you to TELL the camera what you want it to do, and even then you have to be on the look out for the camera slipping up.

Classic one is not realising that the focus points are are bigger than the squares in the viewfinder and some of the adjacent ones overlap considerably.

Read this

Using servo focus on static objects can also lead to problems as the camera is expecting the subject to move when infact is stationary.

To convince youself of the cameras capabilites get a sturdy tripod and take some pictures using live view to focus, use the lens at it's sweet spot F value and make sure you set the exposure suitable for the subject.

Looking at the pictures of the dog I don't think there is a problem with your 7D. Persevere - it's a great camera.

HTH

David
Click to expand...

very interesting link seems to explain the issue I am having and the issues that many others are having
what do you suggest is the best way to master this strange focus system
 
Tony,

What I did to learn the AF modes with my 7D was place a few objects around the back lawn, some very small a couple of feet in front of larger objects, some to the side and some overlapping but at different distances. I then tried to nail the focus on each one in turn, then on two at a time etc etc from a static position (in a chair with tripod). Every time I missed focus on one I could see from the grass around it where it had actually focussed plus I could use the grass to see the DOF I was getting.

Doing that got me used to how the different modes choose what they are going to focus on and of course the size of the sensors. After a couple of hours I'd pretty much grasped what it would do in what mode/circumstance. I then took that knowledge to a local pond and applied what I'd learned to slow moving groups of ducks to get how AI Servo etc would work etc..

It really was an eye opener of an exercise and taught me masses about the system. I do still make mistakes and miss stuff but at least I do generally know WHY I missed it.
 
to is there no way of setting it to focus exactly on the spot it high lights instead of around it
 
Rebel t3i said:
to is there no way of setting it to focus exactly on the spot it high lights instead of around it
Click to expand...

Oh yes. Depending on the size of the object use either Single Point AF (which some call Centre Point) or use Spot AF. If the subject is very small use Spot AF. Any other mode such as '19 Point AF', 'Zone AF' or 'AF Point Expansion' will give the system far more opportunity to miss your target so you limit it's choices by using Single Point or Spot.

NB: In 19 Point AF, Zone AF and AF Point Expansion the system will choose the closest point on which it can get a good focus so if there were a good contrasty area in front of your target, it would likely pick that area in front. By using Single Point or Spot you're telling it "don't look anywhere else, just here".
 
I am using single point and spot and still get out of focus shots
 
I'd contact canon and see what they suggest. They should know how to get the best out of the camera under different conditions.
 
going to try it again later when I get home after the battery and c mos removal
with the tips and education that William C has passed on
hopefully I will get it mastered
It really does seem strange to me that the 7d famous for it's sports and wild life ability can't focus on a still simple subject
maybe I am just to used to the more point and squirt ability of the my 600d
maybe it has too many user defined settings that require mastering
one day they may make a camera that is truly auto focus
perhaps I should jest sell it all and buy a point and squirt for 200 quid lol
 
Last edited:
Rebel t3i said:
going to try it again later when I get home after the battery and c mos removal
with the tips and education that William C has passed on
hopefully I will get it mastered
It really does seem strange to me that the 7d famous for it's sports and wild life ability can't focus on a still simple subject
maybe I am just to used to the more point and squirt ability of the my 600d
maybe it has too many user defined settings that require mastering
one day they may make a camera that is truly auto focus
perhaps I should jest sell it all and buy a point and squirt for 200 quid lol
Click to expand...

If that doesn't work, maybe it's time to do another AF check and make sure the camera is right, and working properly. Lots of threads on this, try a search against my user name.
 
HoppyUK said:
If that doesn't work, maybe it's time to do another AF check and make sure the camera is right, and working properly. Lots of threads on this, try a search against my user name.
Click to expand...

I used a tripod and a tree last time
took shots at 0 MA default and went down by -5 -10
then +5 +10
checked the images on the pc and ended up with +3 on the 70-200 but 0 on the 17-55 f 2.8
does that sound a good enough technique
the prob I am having is the randomness of the out of focus shots
it really does appear to be random but frequent
 
Last edited:
this link that william C posted up seems to conform to the issue I am having
blogs.stonesteps.ca/showpost.aspx?pid=54
and I am reading this at the moment and trying to get to grips with the tips and settings on there http://www.garyluhm.net/bio/tips_0310.html
I also have the 7d for dummies book that came free with the camera which confirms my thoughts that the old guy sold it as he too couldn't get to grips with the 7d's focusing system
 
Last edited:
If you CAN get in focus shots from a tripod with the 7D AND 600D I'd respectfully suggest technique is probably to blame here, don't take offense, I am no better myself :(

I have found that with back button focussing, AV mode, AI servo, single point AF, auto ISO, I can get decent shots of toddlers rushing about in fairly dingy rooms.

I also set AF tracking to one step slower than the middle setting, if you get what I mean.

Have you ever tried back button focussing? Doesn't take long to master and gives you instant switching from AI servo to one shot as you lift your thumb off the back button, will search you a link or two.

Steve

PS I used Gary Luhm's tips too, excellent article.
 
Last edited:
You could well be right Steve mastering the 7d does seem to be a challenge
cmos and main battery back in
Just done some sample shots and the first few seem fine
the next few don't so I would say that has made no difference
What I would say from the shots I have just taken of the dogs is that spot focusing worked fine on the images where the dog is the only thing in it
When the dog was in the bushes the camera had focused on the tree around the dogs head rather than the dogs head where the focus point was at
if that makes sense
Will sort some examples of what I mean and post them shortly
 
Last edited:
Have you tried using DPP which came with your 7D to view these shots & show you where the focus point actually is?

Load up the jpegs & press Alt+L to show the focus point.
 
test images
using p mode and spot focus
focus point centre on the dogs face

7880810012_4e2bf4447c_z.jpg
[/url] IMG_4394.jpg by Tony Turbo, on Flickr[/IMG]

7880805566_0cb46acb17_z.jpg
[/url] IMG_4391.jpg by Tony Turbo, on Flickr[/IMG]

7880812086_866c443193_z.jpg
[/url] IMG_4403.jpg by Tony Turbo, on Flickr[/IMG]

7880816158_9206c1b198_z.jpg
[/url] IMG_4408.jpg by Tony Turbo, on Flickr[/IMG]
 
Last edited:
Mad Badger said:
Have you tried using DPP which came with your 7D to view these shots & show you where the focus point actually is?

Load up the jpegs & press Alt+L to show the focus point.
Click to expand...

done that before but will do it for these specific test shots
 
What mode did you shoot those dogs in? Flickr says Program AE - is that P mode??

The focus seems ok except the last one, they're all a little underexposed, but not much, could do with getting a bit closer to fill the frame more, but ok they're test shots.

You used f/3.5 which will make DOF pretty shallow & make spot on focussing even more vital.....doesn't look too bad to me, others may differ ;)
 
To micro adjust a lens Canon recommend that the distance from camera to test target should be ideally 50 times the focal length that you are testing although 25 times seems a more practical distance that will still give confidence in the results.

You can us one of the printed ruler type targets at 45 degress or set up your own. The important point is that each step of the target is exactly the same distance in front of or behind the next one. This way you can see where your point of focus is and the equal distances will tell you if it is front or back focusing.

I have a home made setup where each step is 33mm behind the one in front. it is made up of 5 segments and i focus on the middle one. I do a rough +10 +5 0 -5 -10 to see roughly where i am and then start to fine tune it from there. Use the widest aperture as changes are more easily seen.

I have the camera on a tripod and try and get a shutter speed of 1/500. I use one shot AF and defocus the lens the same way before the next shot. In my case i go towards infinity. I take 3 images at each setting and then view them at 100% on the PC.

I notice that you have gone from +3 to -3 on you 70-200. Obviously one of those is incorrect because that range at f2.8 will change the depth of field enough to see it easily.

Setting up micro adjustment on a lens is not a five minute job. It needs a methodical approach to getting good results. As an example i can clearly see the difference on my 500mm between 0 and +2 on it.

Regards
 
if you go to the image on my flickr and view it as a large image you'll see what I mean about the OOF considering I focused on the dogs faces
 
Gaz J said:
To micro adjust a lens Canon recommend that the distance from camera to test target should be ideally 50 times the focal length that you are testing although 25 times seems a more practical distance that will still give confidence in the results.

You can us one of the printed ruler type targets at 45 degress or set up your own. The important point is that each step of the target is exactly the same distance in front of or behind the next one. This way you can see where your point of focus is and the equal distances will tell you if it is front or back focusing.

I have a home made setup where each step is 33mm behind the one in front. it is made up of 5 segments and i focus on the middle one. I do a rough +10 +5 0 -5 -10 to see roughly where i am and then start to fine tune it from there. Use the widest aperture as changes are more easily seen.

I have the camera on a tripod and try and get a shutter speed of 1/500. I use one shot AF and defocus the lens the same way before the next shot. In my case i go towards infinity. I take 3 images at each setting and then view them at 100% on the PC.

I notice that you have gone from +3 to -3 on you 70-200. Obviously one of those is incorrect because that range at f2.8 will change the depth of field enough to see it easily.

Setting up micro adjustment on a lens is not a five minute job. It needs a methodical approach to getting good results. As an example i can clearly see the difference on my 500mm between 0 and +2 on it.

Regards
Click to expand...

purely a typo error on my part edited to read correctly now +3
 
1st two look ok to me, but the last two the focus seems to be on the hedge by the dogs left ear.
I have had issue with my 7D the other week at cricket. Using a 1.4 TC and 70-200mm 2.8 Non IS lens with fast shutter speeds and on a monopod most of my shots were soft. Can't remember if I was using center point or the one above, but was focusing on the players body using back button focus and servo mode.

Amesbury CC v Compton CC-11 by Dave Cavanagh, on Flickr
 
Rebel t3i said:
test images
using p mode and spot focus
focus point centre on the dogs face

7880810012_4e2bf4447c_z.jpg
[/url] IMG_4394.jpg by Tony Turbo, on Flickr[/IMG]

7880805566_0cb46acb17_z.jpg
[/url] IMG_4391.jpg by Tony Turbo, on Flickr[/IMG]

7880812086_866c443193_z.jpg
[/url] IMG_4403.jpg by Tony Turbo, on Flickr[/IMG]

7880816158_9206c1b198_z.jpg
[/url] IMG_4408.jpg by Tony Turbo, on Flickr[/IMG]
Click to expand...
the first two images are fine it is 3 and 4 that when zoomed in to 1:1 seriously show the dogs face out of focus and the bush branches are in focus yet I was set to spot focus and focussed centre on the dogs head
 
In the 'bush' shots the AF seems to have picked up the twig on the bush to the right of the dog's head. If you were using Single Point AF or Spot AF then you'd want the square in the viewfinder right between the dog's eyes, if that's exactly where you put it then I would suspect that either your lens is focussing to the rear or you have adjusted (MA'd) the lens incorrectly to the rear or that's not actually where you put the square.
 
spot focus spot and focus sqaure smack on the dogs head
this is the problem I have been experiencing ever since I got the camera it seems to focus around the centre unless the only thing in frame is the subject as in examples 1 +2
 
Willid1 said:
Using servo focus on static objects can also lead to problems as the camera is expecting the subject to move when infact is stationary.
Click to expand...

I use AI Servo most of the time, with no problems. Indeed, if a user can get good, properly focused, images with a tripod but has problems when using the camera handheld then they may find that switching to AI Servo can help fix that error.

I use One-Shot whenever both the subject and the camera aren't moving and aren't going to move. If either the subject or the camera are moving, or might move, then I use AI Servo.

A friend of mine was having problems taking pics of butterflies with her 100-400, they were all out of focus. I got her to take another few shots while I watched and I noticed that she was framing the shot, half-pressing the shutter and then, just before fully pressing, she was doing a final adjustment to the composition. With the narrow depth of field she had it just required a small movement back or forth to ruin the shot. She refused to believe me until she switched to AI Servo and her problems were solved.
 
Frank might have a point. Servo AF is not everyone's favourite unless you need it (it can bring it's own issues) but it's looking as if something is moving between focusing and shooting. There is zero room for error when DoF is that shallow.

And focusing on the dog's head is not good enough - on the eyes.
 
As the last pictures are taken with your phone (and very nice they are too), I recommend you sell the 7d to me. It's obviously broken so shall we say £20 posted? :p :D
 
what surprises me is the quality of the phone pics
I have some better pics with the phone I will load a couple of the best ones later
Seriously impressed with the S3's camera
The phone pics are taken by my son
perhaps I should use my glalaxy note and sell the 7d
does your 20 quid offer include rmsd very tempting offer lol
 
WilliamC said:
In the 'bush' shots the AF seems to have picked up the twig on the bush to the right of the dog's head. If you were using Single Point AF or Spot AF then you'd want the square in the viewfinder right between the dog's eyes, if that's exactly where you put it then I would suspect that either your lens is focussing to the rear or you have adjusted (MA'd) the lens incorrectly to the rear or that's not actually where you put the square.
Click to expand...

There is nothing to focus on between the dogs eyes though.

We have to remember that focus needs an area of contrast to work. In those examples there's very little contrast in the dogs face - that makes it a tricky subject to focus on despite what we might believe the camera ought to be able to do. The camera will look for an area of contrast within the focus point - as it has here; and focussed on the bush.

Whilst we're questioning technique it's really important we understand what it is that the camera wants to do; what it thinks we're telling it to, to the best of its ability. So we have to be clear with our instructions, My guess is that it'd have been tricky to focus on that dogs face manually with good MF gear - there's no lines, So I'd have gone for a smaller aperture and picked the dogs ear (just behind the eye and hopefully contrasty enough) or just the edge of the dog.
 
camera was set to P and chose that aperture I am going to do some shots setting the aperture manually to f4 and upwards and try and establish what works best
I was surprised at the large apertures the camera chose considering how bright it was
the weather is slightly over cast with the odd shower today roflol so I doubt I will be taking any shots for comparison today
and I don't have waterproof test in mind for my equipment
I am a fine weather camera hobbiest
 
Last edited:
I don't want to sound condescending, but how would anyone think they can perform accurate focus tests without choosing a constant aperture.

Photography is a 3 dimensional wobbly thing, if you can't pin it down tightly with solid technique you're on a hiding to nothing.
 
Phil V said:
I don't want to sound condescending, but how would anyone think they can perform accurate focus tests without choosing a constant aperture.

Photography is a 3 dimensional wobbly thing, if you can't pin it down tightly with solid technique you're on a hiding to nothing.
Click to expand...

why would I want to pick a constant aperture
it was a quick set of simple spur of the moment shots in an attempt to demonstrate the issue I am having
I picked just a few examples from the shots I took which best showed the focusing issues I am experiencing which seems purely random to my untrained abilities
Are you recommending I should select a different aperture if so what

sometimes the camera gets it right often it gets the focusing wrong this is what I am trying to get to the bottom of
It has already been suggested that the camera will struggle at such wide apertures on the subject matter at this range so I am going to try some shots at smaller apertures when the monsoon stops
I took 3 shots last night in low light of the cameras I have focusing on the canon logo
whilst the pics were quite good the 600d had perfectly focussed on the 7d's canon logo as did the galaxy s3, the 7d pic was out of focus on the 600d's canon log and the logo was the spot focus centre point on all 3 test shots the 7 d had clearly focused perfectly on another part of the image
I used my 17-55 f2.8
std camera flash was used and the 600d and 7d were both set to p and the cameras had selected identical aperture iso and shutter speed
 
Last edited:
Rebel t3i said:
why would I want to pick a constant aperture
it was a quick set of simple spur of the moment shots in an attempt to demonstrate the issue I am having
I picked just a few examples from the shots I took which best showed the focusing issues I am experiencing which seems purely random to my untrained abilities
Are you recommending I should select a different aperture if so what

sometimes the camera gets it right often it gets the focusing wrong this is what I am trying to get to the bottom of
It has already been suggested that the camera will struggle at such wide apertures on the subject matter at this range so I am going to try some shots at smaller apertures when the monsoon stops
I took 3 shots last night in low light of the cameras I have focusing on the canon logo
whilst the pics were quite good the 600d had perfectly focussed on the 7d's canon logo as did the galaxy s3, the 7d pic was out of focus on the 600d's canon log and the logo was the spot focus centre point on all 3 test shots the 7 d had clearly focused perfectly on another part of the image
I used my 17-55 f2.8
std camera flash was used and the 600d and 7d were both set to p and the cameras had selected identical aperture iso and shutter speed
Click to expand...

Tony, can you post up screenshots of those test pics of the logo viewed in DPP and showing the highlighted focus point, as it is a screengrab could you supply the exif to each shot as well?
 
I experienced very similar issues to OP's with my 70-200mm F/4 IS on a 7D. Every other lens worked fine on the 7D, and the 70-200 worked fine on other bodies but the two would not work well together. I tried every focus setting and adjustment possible, but even shooting a static subject with a tripod would still produce random front or back focussed images. Bizarely, shooting in Live View nailed focus every single time.

After weeks of frustration, I found the simple solution. I removed the the Pro 1D UV filter from the end of my 70-200 and everything just worked. For some reason this particular filter + lens + body combo simply did not work together.

Strange but true.
 
I have no filters on any of my lenses
will post up the pics later when I get in
my focus issues aren't lens related the 600d is fine with all my lenses the 7d well it just likes to take random occasional perfect in focus shots and many out of focus shots
 
I think that you need to try the lens on another 7D to confirm whether the body is at fault are requires adjustment. Perhaps take it to Jessops along with a memory card and ask to try one out. Shoot people walking past the window to see whether the borrowed 7D images are fine.
 
it's not lens specific IMO the problems I am experiencing with the 7d are the same no matter which of my many lenses I use
don't get me wrong my 7d does take some super sharp impressive images but those seem random
the shots where I take the time to compose and focus them are the ones that are often disappointing or should I say the ones I am most disappointed in
it does appear this is a slight front or back focus issue
 
Last edited:
Tony. I think earlier that you said that you had done a reset.

The expanded focus isnt set is it? So that it is using the point either side of the manually selected point or something similar. Sorry if this has already been asked. I did have a quick trawl but couldnt see it mentioned.
 
pretty sure I checked that and am using spot focusing
just checked and it is on spot focusing
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top