HELP!!! Sold 35 L.... now a problem

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cressers

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OK - I have had a 35L with my 40d for a while, never any problems.

I sold it locally to someone, and they tried it out with their 5d. They took calibration shots, took some other shots. I left and the person examined the pictures they took for about 4 hours. He called and said he would take it.

Fast forward 4 days. He is now saying that the lens does not focus about 1/10 shots and wants his money back.

Now I have no idea what this person has done, or if this is actually an issue.

I feel that I did everything to let him make an informed decision, and never had any issues myself, and used goods are sold "as is".

I offered to pay for canon to check it out and if they say something is wrong, i will give him his money back, but he says he wants his money back.

We went round in circles on the phone and I agreed to meet him in person tomorrow.

HELP! what would you do?
 
cressers said:
I sold it locally to someone, and they tried it out with their 5d. They took calibration shots, took some other shots. I left and the person examined the pictures they took for about 4 hours. He called and said he would take it.
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On that basis alone, I wouldn't refund him....but, that's just me.
 
Tell them to stick it personally. Who knows what they did to it in those 4 days?!?

When you see the person inspect the lens very carefully, look for any marks that weren't there before, try it out yourself.

Is this the first fast lens the buyer has used? If it is it might be focus technique rather than a fault.
 
He has other primes, but smaller aperture version. This is his first L lens. He said he never had problems with other lenses.

He says this one is out of focus 1/10 times, when on tripod etc.

I am inclined to think nothing is perfect and he is looking TOO close for problems.
 
he is now saying that the test shots he took, some were out of focus, but he thought that it was user error.

In addition that it slightly back focussed in the test shots - but he knew all this before he bought it, and as back focussing can be calibrated out, I am slightly confused.
 
This is an awkward one but at the end of the day he bought the lens and I personally probably wouldn't refund it, this is an unfortunate situation but if I was the buyer I wouldn't expect a refund, maybe if I complained within one day of recieving it but not 4.
 
if he was angry, it may make my choice easy, but he is so whiny on the phone.

My proposal is -send it to canon - if they say something is wrong, I will pay the fee for the check and refund your money.

If they say nothing is wrong. I do nothing.
 
cressers said:
if he was angry, it may make my choice easy, but he is so whiny on the phone.

My proposal is -send it to canon - if they say something is wrong, I will pay the fee for the check and refund your money.

If they say nothing is wrong. I do nothing.
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Yes nice gesture, but if he has damaged it,you end up paying
 
TBH if you can convince yourself the lens hasn't been abused (take some shots and compare them with what you know), then I would refund.

He's probably an idiot, but its a lens you'll have no problem selling again, and life is too short.
 
after this, not on here though :)
 
cressers said:
after this, not on here though :)
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can't see why not - hand any fast lens to someone who doesn't know what they are doing and they will have focus problems. ref: Sigma 30mm f/1.4
 
just ******es me off that I know there is nothing wrong with it.

Legally I am ok to tell him to go jump, right?
 
I'm not sure what the legal position is with private sales - and hopefully you'd be able to resolve it amicably anyhow.

Legalities aside, if you were a buyer and after only 4 days you thought you had a problem, would you be happy if the seller told you to "go jump?"

Answer that honestly and you know what to do.
 
Yeah, I know, but its the fact somebody I do not know, has had this for 4 days that worries me.

For example it was -20oC on wed night. What if he left it in the car, then brought it inside - and there is some moisture in it???

I agree its unlikely, but I DONT KNOW. Before I took it, i knew everything, now I dont.
 
AFAIK you are not obliged to refund on a private sale. Back to "buyer beware" again.

Given that it is his first fast lens it may be that he just isn't managing the DoF correctly and mucking up the photo.

Anything you do for him is up to you but I really don't think you should feel obligated. Like others have said, I would be concerned that the purchaser had damaged the lens and was now looking to offload it. If you have any hint of that then politely inform him that it is no longer "as-sold" and you can't take it back.

A shop wouldn't make an exchange under such circumstances and they ARE bound by law to do such things.

Good luck with it.
 
trouble is I am a nice guy. And I dont want to be a git if I dont have to be.

But on the other hand, i am slightly worried.

I will meet him tomorrow and look at it, and if I even suspect there is something wrong, I will refuse to take it back.

If all looks ok, its going to ebay - unless someone on here wants it :)
 
cressers said:
Legally I am ok to tell him to go jump, right?
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it's alive said:
AFAIK you are not obliged to refund on a private sale. Back to "buyer beware" again.
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Many years ago I had a buyer go through the Citizens Advice Bureau after buying a 2nd hand item - it came down to wording in the advert and the fact the law is usually on the buyers side. I had to refund all money otherwise I would have had to go to court. :(

The only way out of this would have been if the advert stated "sold as seen" or he signed a disclaimer/piece of paper as "sold as seen". Something to consider in future maybe?
 
Out of interest, see if he can take shots with the lens in front of you to see if he can re-create the issue. Then take shots with your camera (maybe even let him as well) - this could then rule whether it's the lens or his camera playing up.

Just a thought. :)
 
Be aware that in less than good lighting, the 5D also isn't the worlds best focusing body, so it could well be that.

After 4 days, I'd tell him to take a running jump. At the end of the day, he was given ample time to verify that it meets his needs. Post that, it's his problem.
 
ok, if it is ok with my camera, its his camera. He says he has tried it with 2 different 5D'.

I am just fed up, hate people being unhappy, but I feel that he is just pixel peeping and not understanding how to use the lens he has.

He says on focus charts he can "make it not focus" at f2 as well.
 
DANG - dont think so - he IS a nice guy, and genuinely sounds distressed.

I guess he is getting his money back.
 
here is latest communication


I said - I am sorry, but it was sold as seen. You tested the lens extensively, and as you said, this is a combination of the lens with the camera. I had no issues with my 40d.

He said - Sure, I shot test shots with it, but what puzzles me about this lens, is the inconsistency of the focus error. Sometimes shots are tack sharp, sometimes they are completely out of focus. And the consistency of the focusing cannot be tested in a few minutes' testing session.
 
sold as seen has no legal basis in the sale of goods act.

if you sold him a lens and answered all his questions, he tested it and these chose to buy it then he has no come back.

he is not entitled to a refund.


cressers said:
here is latest communication


I said - I am sorry, but it was sold as seen. You tested the lens extensively, and as you said, this is a combination of the lens with the camera. I had no issues with my 40d.

He said - Sure, I shot test shots with it, but what puzzles me about this lens, is the inconsistency of the focus error. Sometimes shots are tack sharp, sometimes they are completely out of focus. And the consistency of the focusing cannot be tested in a few minutes' testing session.
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POAH said:
sold as seen has no legal basis in the sale of goods act.

if you sold him a lens and answered all his questions, he tested it and these chose to buy it then he has no come back.

he is not entitled to a refund.
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Sale of goods act barely touches on private sales - you can only seek a refund or claim for damages if the seller does not have the rights to sell the item, there is money still owed on the item or if the goods were security on a loan.

Goods also only have to be as described, they do not have to be totally free of faults.
 
Please note that if it could have been left in a car overnight at -20 then we are not talking UK law re SOGA etc.
I assume the private sale took place in Finland.
I have no idea as to the law regarding private sales thre, however my ownopinion is it is tough luck for the buyer if, in fact thre is fault.
 
We all take a risk buying second hand and it sounds to me that he had plenty of opportunity to see and use the lens before purchasing. If he wanted the ability to return it or have a guarantee then he should have paid full price from a merchant. My concern would be that he has damaged the lens in the time that he has had it, or had one with focusing issues and is using yours in a switch to get a good one (both concerns already mentioned in the thread). I am the same as you and find it hard to be the bad guy, but if he has damaged the lens and you refund him, now you have a lens with issues by no fault of your own. Rock and a hard place you are between.
 
certainly sounds like the sale took place in Finland, in which case who knows what laws apply (unless you have the requisite knowledge?).

Personally I would adopt the "sold as is" stance until I saw a legal document begging to differ. By all means be sympathetic and tactful if you see fit, but given what you say you gave the buyer all opportunity to assure himself of what he was buying. If he chose to buy it regardless you have every right to assume he was satisfied with what he was getting.

One thing I always do when I conduct a private sale (not a purchase, a sale) is supply a receipt with the following wording included: Sold as seen, no warranty supplied or implied. That normally covers it and makes sure everyone involved knows where they stand.
 
You did let him try it out beforehand, so you remind him of that and not refund!
 
cressers said:
ok, if it is ok with my camera, its his camera. He says he has tried it with 2 different 5D'.

I am just fed up, hate people being unhappy, but I feel that he is just pixel peeping and not understanding how to use the lens he has.

He says on focus charts he can "make it not focus" at f2 as well.
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Is it that notorious one which uses an A4 sheet of paper shot at 45degs? Chances are it's a combination of an inappropraite test coupled to user error that is the problem.

I would guess that the lens performs perfectly under normal conditions. Tell him that if he regularly shoots test charts at zero distance then he should have bought a macro.

Sounds like the guy is a gadget lover and pixel peeper. They seem to be drawn to L lenses! He won't be happy if it doesn't pass his tests, no matter how irrelevant they are, or how wrongly he is conducting them and interpreting them. I think you could play it either way, depending on how you feel (unless he has damaged it of course). He could sell it on himself of course, and the way prices are right now, he might make a profit :)
 
HoppyUK said:
Is it that notorious one which uses an A4 sheet of paper shot at 45degs? Chances are it's a combination of an inappropraite test coupled to user error that is the problem.

I would guess that the lens performs perfectly under normal conditions. Tell him that if he regularly shoots test charts at zero distance then he should have bought a macro.

Sounds like the guy is a gadget lover and pixel peeper. They seem to be drawn to L lenses! He won't be happy if it doesn't pass his tests, no matter how irrelevant they are, or how wrongly he is conducting them and interpreting them. I think you could play it either way, depending on how you feel (unless he has damaged it of course). He could sell it on himself of course, and the way prices are right now, he might make a profit :)
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This is EXACTLY what I think is going on. I know from using these lenses how precise the focus can be and how easy it can be to throw off the focus through self movement.

It was in finland - and from discussions the law is even more in my favor here.

I will meet him in a few hours, but I am afraid I am going to say no. I will try it with my camera and if it works ok, no refund.
 
sold as seen ! no refund

I wouildn't even try it with your camera , who knows what he may have done to it ?
 
Tough on the buyer. He tested it for that amount of time and no court on the land is going to side with him.

A focus error of 1/10 tells me he's shooting it at f1.4 and seeing issues. I'll bet he's using focus and recompose as well.
 
He was using focus and re-compose. (star button on 5d)

I tested the lens, we went to the local camera store. No issues. I refunded his money minus 15% :)

The lens fine...but I just felt sorry for him. But I dont think he understood the difference in focal systems between this and the 35mm F2 he was using before.
 
hepburn said:
certainly sounds like the sale took place in Finland, in which case who knows what laws apply (unless you have the requisite knowledge?).

Personally I would adopt the "sold as is" stance until I saw a legal document begging to differ. By all means be sympathetic and tactful if you see fit, but given what you say you gave the buyer all opportunity to assure himself of what he was buying. If he chose to buy it regardless you have every right to assume he was satisfied with what he was getting.

One thing I always do when I conduct a private sale (not a purchase, a sale) is supply a receipt with the following wording included: Sold as seen, no warranty supplied or implied. That normally covers it and makes sure everyone involved knows where they stand.
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Yes, that's the right way.
I think the buyer is a chancer.
I'd tell him the lens was working normally when sold and refuse to have anything else to do with it.
 
He focussed using the focus ring, then focusses using the secondary button, then took the shot. But I could see the camera move between focus and taking the shot when he did this.

"look, its out of focus".......

As there was nothing wrong with the lens, I checked thoroughly, as did the dealer, it was the same lens - no switching;) and as I kind of work for the same company as this guy, and he was so miserable, I refunded. (minus fee)

As I said, we went to local dealer, and I stayed after he left. The dealer was chuckling, and said that half the "returns" they get with L primes are people with focus charts complaining about back focus.

Most, have taken few actual shots in daylight, and are taking low light shots in the evening at home to "check the lens".

They get sent to canon, and suprise, suprise, no issue.
 
I am glad you were able to work it out. Sounds like everyone was happy in the end and if he was willing to accept the 15% then it seems fair.
 
for sale if anyone is interested :)
 
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