Help me choose: 5DmkII 7D 60D

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alchemistkevin

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I was wondering if I could get some advice on what camera to buy please...
:help:

To cut my long story short, I've had various film & then digital & digital bridge cameras over the years including the

Fuji S9600
Fuji S200 EXR

and most recently the Canon 450D


I like F1 and the biggest task of my kit would be to take great F1 pictures.
I also travel to motor shows and love to photograph metal in the real world.
I would also like to photograph sports (local footie games) & portraits of my kids.

With an aim of achieving great pictures at above events and at various times through the day, can you please advise what cameras of the above should I go for please?

I've already discounted cameras priced any higher than the 5D as I think if I can't achieve good results with either of these, I wouldn't be able to buy quality by spending more.

I started looking at these by evaluting a mate's 60D with L series lens, while it produces great pictures, I'd like to know what better kit could buy me.

So while the 60D is in the list, it's (currently) the last choice.

I've read a lot over the last few weeks and the more I read the more I get confused :bang:

Should I buy a 5DmkII?

One of the main cons that I've read about it is the AF system - how bad is it and does the rest of the camera, quality of the images produced, eclipse its one con?

Should I buy the 7D?
Will it be better suited to my needs, will the fast AF make me produce more usable pictures (I'm assuming AF locks quicker on these as opposed to the 5D?)

Will the quality of pictures be similar to the 5D? Is having a crop sensor a negative, should I be looking at the FF 5D?

Other things I've read about (and I'm concerned with are):

4f glass on the 5D will produce similiar quality images as 2.8f glass on the 7D - is it true? If so, should I spend more money on the 5D and buy 4f lenses, will spending less money on the 7D be a folly as I'll need to get better glass to produce the same result?

Lots of questions but hoping someone patient will come along and help me choose

:thankyou:
 
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My (personal, simplistic) view.

If you want best image quality, 5D MK11
If you want fastest focus and take pictures of quick subjects, 7D
 
Hi

Any of the cameras that you have listed will do the job for you.What is your budget and what glass do you alrerady own?The above make a significant difference to any advice that you might be given.
An example is that I would rather have a 60D and 100-400L than a 7D and 70-300 is.I would also rather have a 5DMK2 and 500 F4L than either of the other 2 examples.

Cheers
Gary
 
PCPhil said:
My (personal, simplistic) view.

If you want best image quality, 5D MK11
If you want fastest focus and take pictures of quick subjects, 7D
Click to expand...
that's exactly where the problem stems from.

If the 5D had both it would've been easy but it doesn't :(

If I go for the faster AF, what's the difference in IQ between 5D & 7D?
 
vulcan2912 said:
Hi

Any of the cameras that you have listed will do the job for you.What is your budget and what glass do you alrerady own?The above make a significant difference to any advice that you might be given.
An example is that I would rather have a 60D and 100-400L than a 7D and 70-300 is.I would also rather have a 5DMK2 and 500 F4L than either of the other 2 examples.

Cheers
Gary
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Budget is not really a big problem (within reason and around what these cameras cost) hence bringing further confusion into the picture but to put a figure to it I'm guess I'd not want to spend more than the £2500 at this point in time.

Sold all my previous kit.

Got a few SD cards though ;)
 
Also,

How true is this:

4f glass on the 5D will produce similiar quality images as 2.8f glass on the 7D - is it true? If so, should I spend more money on the 5D and buy 4f lenses, will spending less money on the 7D be a folly as I'll need to get better glass to produce the same result?
Click to expand...
 
daugirdas said:
Best of the both worlds: 1Ds mkII
Click to expand...
My reading tells me, the 7D AF system is better and faster than the 1D although the 1D would provide better quality portraits, is this correct or am I reading it wrong?

Thanks for your input :) much appreciated.
 
Hi

The aperture of the lens makes no difference to the "quality" of the images.I think you might be getting a bit confused with the depth of field characteristics of a crop sensor camera and a full frame camera here.
£2500 isn't really a lot of money.If you were to pick up a 5D2 and a 24-105 F4L you wouldn't have much money left to pick up something longer for your sports/motorsports shots.
Something like the 7D,100-400 and a 15-85 or if you could stretch to it a 17-55 F2.8 might be a more realistic aim. I would think the 7D would be the better camera for your needs.I certainly wouldn't rule out the 60D either.All 3 cameras have their good and bad points.I'm basing that on having owned 3 x 5DMK2's,2 x 7D's and a 60D.

Cheers
Gary
 
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For motorsports (specially F1) The king and queen are the 1DMKIV and The EF 500mm f/4 L IS.
both for sale here
Having said that, you will do well to settle for the 7D and a fast L 300/400/500/600/800mm prime.
Zooms are great for general purposes but, for F1 and fast paced Motor sports you will find a prime lens locks focus faster and produces more keepers.
For images showing what you can expect from the 1DMKIV and the 500mm look here
 
alchemistkevin said:
My reading tells me, the 7D AF system is better and faster than the 1D although the 1D would provide better quality portraits, is this correct or am I reading it wrong?

Thanks for your input :) much appreciated.
Click to expand...

Wrong. 1Ds has the best AF, and best IQ. 7D af comes close, but IQ is far away in a straight comparison
 
daugirdas said:
Wrong. 1Ds has the best AF, and best IQ. 7D af comes close, but IQ is far away in a straight comparison
Click to expand...

Get real. The 7Ds AF system is streets ahead of a 1DsII (and a 1DII for that matter) and better than the 1DsIII. It's equal to the 1DIII (and in some ways superior) and is beaten by the 1DIV. Having said that, there are aspects of the 7D's AF system that I wish Canon had included on the 1DIV.

Given the budget stated originally I'd be looking at either a 7D or a 1DIII; the deciding factor would be how much I'd need to crop the images v IQ v the need for high ISO speeds.
 
DemiLion said:
Get real. The 7Ds AF system is streets ahead of a 1DsII (and a 1DII for that matter) and better than the 1DsIII. It's equal to the 1DIII (and in some ways superior) and is beaten by the 1DIV. Having said that, there are aspects of the 7D's AF system that I wish Canon had included on the 1DIV.

Given the budget stated originally I'd be looking at either a 7D or a 1DIII; the deciding factor would be how much I'd need to crop the images v IQ v the need for high ISO speeds.
Click to expand...

I've got both the 7D and 1Ds2 and whilst the 7D is more feature rich when it comes to AF it is not far and away better when it comes to performance. There is very little in it. My old 1D3 was better than the 7D.
 
How urgent is your decision and purchase? Because all the talk about the 5D MKIII due soon is that it will have all the best from the 5DMKII and the 7D.

It may be worth the wait for one with such high expectations.
 
First of all - Thank you so much for your posts, much appreciated. I just want to say I've read up quite a bit about these cameras, it too much reading and not being able to translate to my understanding's making me out of focus on what to buy, sorry for pun :P

I'll get to responding all the points individually now. :)
 
IGADIZ said:
For motorsports (specially F1) The king and queen are the 1DMKIV and The EF 500mm f/4 L IS.
both for sale here
Having said that, you will do well to settle for the 7D and a fast L 300/400/500/600/800mm prime.
Zooms are great for general purposes but, for F1 and fast paced Motor sports you will find a prime lens locks focus faster and produces more keepers.
For images showing what you can expect from the 1DMKIV and the 500mm look here
Click to expand...
I can't see the classifieds but I'm not tied on my budget, can you please tell me how much it's up for please?

MODS: I don't want to bend the rules and won't be buying until I can access the classifieds just want to know how much it's up for.
 
vulcan2912 said:
Hi

The aperture of the lens makes no difference to the "quality" of the images.I think you might be getting a bit confused with the depth of field characteristics of a crop sensor camera and a full frame camera here.
Click to expand...


Thanks, since one of my primary gripes with the 450D was the DoF this might be something I need to look into...

So you're saying, if I buy a full frame I'll be able to get a much shallower DoF as opposed to a crop? One of the things I like in my pictures (in layman terms) is background blur.



£2500 isn't really a lot of money.If you were to pick up a 5D2 and a 24-105 F4L you wouldn't have much money left to pick up something longer for your sports/motorsports shots.
Something like the 7D,100-400 and a 15-85 or if you could stretch to it a 17-55 F2.8 might be a more realistic aim. I would think the 7D would be the better camera for your needs.I certainly wouldn't rule out the 60D either.All 3 cameras have their good and bad points.I'm basing that on having owned 3 x 5DMK2's,2 x 7D's and a 60D.

Cheers
Gary
Click to expand...


Agreed, I'll up my budget if I get a 5D then, this would've been my next question if I settle for a 5D - do I buy it with the L series lens from Jessops for £2149 or just get the camera from them for around £1500 and then look at another lens?

The lens on it's own is up for around £800, at £2149 they seem to be offering a tidy saving over the RRP of both products.

Your 7D kit options make sense to me, do you (off the top of your head) know how much it would cost?

Thanks for your inputs.
 
iPhoto said:
How urgent is your decision and purchase? Because all the talk about the 5D MKIII due soon is that it will have all the best from the 5DMKII and the 7D.

It may be worth the wait for one with such high expectations.
Click to expand...

I'm an impatient man :bonk::bonk::bonk: and since no one can call a date to 5DmkIII it doesn't make a lot of sense (I mean people have been talking about it since 2010)
 
alchemistkevin said:
I'm an impatient man :bonk::bonk::bonk: and since no one can call a date to 5DmkIII it doesn't make a lot of sense (I mean people have been talking about it since 2010)
Click to expand...

Or predict the AF specs before release! ;)
 
yes, that's another thing, some people are saying it'll be 7D AF System with FF sensors other are saying that's the next 1D :thinking:
 
alchemistkevin said:
yes, that's another thing, some people are saying it'll be 7D AF System with FF sensors other are saying that's the next 1D :thinking:
Click to expand...

Its all about cost and model separation. How would canon sell then 1D models if the 5D was FF and had AF like the 7D? It would make their life difficult to say the least!
 
Hi

At the same aperture you will get less depth of field on a full frame camera than on a crop sensor camera.That's why most of your portrait shooters go for the full frame bodies.Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I think the difference is about 1 and a bit stops.So basically a F2.8 lens will give the same depth of field on a 1.6 crop camera as a F4 lens on full frame(not exact but a rough guide).

It makes good financial sense to pick up the kit with the 24-105L lens if you get the 5DMK2.It's a cracking lens but if you really want the F2.8 then the 24-70L is the way to go.

Prices tend to fluctuate up and down so I'm not sure what the prices are at the minute.Someone like Kerso(advertises on here) would do you a good price on any of the gear you want.Quite a good saving on buying from Jessops.

Have you considered 2nd hand.Popular lenses like the 24-105L,24-70L,100-400L and 300 F4Lis tend to sell for quite a bit below their shop selling prices.The 24-105/70 tend to be about £200 cheaper and the 100-400 & 300 F4 are in the £300-£400 cheaper range.
A 5DMK2 in good nic will be around the £1300 mark 2nd hand(7D's around the £850 mark).

Cheers
Gary
 
vulcan2912 said:
Hi

At the same aperture you will get less depth of field on a full frame camera than on a crop sensor camera.That's why most of your portrait shooters go for the full frame bodies.Someone will correct me if I'm wrong but I think the difference is about 1 and a bit stops.So basically a F2.8 lens will give the same depth of field on a 1.6 crop camera as a F4 lens on full frame(not exact but a rough guide).

It makes good financial sense to pick up the kit with the 24-105L lens if you get the 5DMK2.It's a cracking lens but if you really want the F2.8 then the 24-70L is the way to go.

Prices tend to fluctuate up and down so I'm not sure what the prices are at the minute.Someone like Kerso(advertises on here) would do you a good price on any of the gear you want.Quite a good saving on buying from Jessops.

Have you considered 2nd hand.Popular lenses like the 24-105L,24-70L,100-400L and 300 F4Lis tend to sell for quite a bit below their shop selling prices.The 24-105/70 tend to be about £200 cheaper and the 100-400 & 300 F4 are in the £300-£400 cheaper range.
A 5DMK2 in good nic will be around the £1300 mark 2nd hand(7D's around the £850 mark).

Cheers
Gary
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Dust and other issues are stopping me from buying from eBay and other places.

I don't have access to TP classifieds yet... so I'm kinda stuck on 2nd hand stuff.

Yes 1 stop is what I've heard - does that mean I'll to buy 2.8f lenses on the 7D to get the same shallow DoF that a 5D2 will give me?

If so, doesn't it make sense to buy 5D now, spend more money and save on the lenses going forward? (as 2.8f lenses are much more expensive than 4f and will give me a similar DoF) or is that too simple a way to look at it?

I will be picking up better lenses in the future but at the moment if the 24-105 is £800 and the body is £1500 then surely it makes sense to buy them for £2149 now and then I won't be taking a lot of hit when selling either on?


How much better is the 7D AF system? Is it much faster than the 5D, is the camera too compromised with it's AF system right now?
 
jonneymendoza said:
yea exactly, if nikon can produce one ie d700 why cant canon?
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you reckon i should be looking at Nikon???? serious question.

I just want a camera as an end to my means, while I'd prefer a Canon, I won't let the preference handicap me.
 
alchemistkevin said:
Thanks, since one of my primary gripes with the 450D was the DoF this might be something I need to look into...

So you're saying, if I buy a full frame I'll be able to get a much shallower DoF as opposed to a crop? One of the things I like in my pictures (in layman terms) is background blur.

Agreed, I'll up my budget if I get a 5D then, this would've been my next question if I settle for a 5D - do I buy it with the L series lens from Jessops for £2149 or just get the camera from them for around £1500 and then look at another lens?

The lens on it's own is up for around £800, at £2149 they seem to be offering a tidy saving over the RRP of both products.

Your 7D kit options make sense to me, do you (off the top of your head) know how much it would cost?

Thanks for your inputs.
Click to expand...

Your problem with the 450d was it's dof??

Really, the camera has little to do with that, the lens you use has a far bigger impact on dof.

Put a 50mm f/1.8 on the front and you'll have all the dof you'll ever need on a 450d. Forget about sensors affecting dof for now and take that out of the equation as this shouldnt be a factor in changing bodies.

What lenses have you been using?
 
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odd jim said:
Your problem with the 450d was it's dof??

Really, the camera has little to do with that, the lens you use has a far bigger impact on dof.

Put a 50mm f/1.8 on the front and you'll have all the dof you'll ever need on a 450d. Forget about sensors affecting dof for now and take that out of the equation as this shouldnt be a factor in changing bodies.

What lenses have you been using?
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kit lens mainly and occasionally the 70-200L.

no, that wasn't the only gripe, I wasn't happy with the IQ difference between my prosumer bodies and the 450D.

Get your point about the lenses though.

hence the choice gets more confusing.

Buy 7D and f2.8 lenses or 5D and f4 lenses to get similar DoF in images?
 
alchemistkevin said:
kit lens mainly and occasionally the 70-200L.

no, that wasn't the only gripe, I wasn't happy with the IQ difference between my prosumer bodies and the 450D.

Get your point about the lenses though.

hence the choice gets more confusing.

Buy 7D and f2.8 lenses or 5D and f4 lenses to get similar DoF in images?
Click to expand...

Not really... I don't think its that simple. And Don't forget youll still get more light through to the sensor with the f/2.8 lens than the f/4, no matter what body they're on.

If you want good dof just buy a couple of fast primes. You can get a used canon 50mm f/1.8 and canon 35mm f/2 for about £250 all in, and all the dof you could ever need!
 
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I went with a 7D (still lusting over a 5D MKII) due to costs and spent the saved money on a lens. I don't shoot motor sports but I'm guessing the 7D would serve you well. Why not buy second hand? A 7D will cost around £850 -£900 which leaves a healthy budget for a zoom lens (70-200mm 2.8 IS, £1350) and a prime for portraits (50mm 1.4, £250)? See how you get on and if you think you are missing something from that setup later on then re-evaluate your kit then?

I spent too much time thinking about what kit to buy and went round in a huge circle. Time I could have spent learning how to use my kit properly! :bang:
 
Shoot Em Up said:
I went with a 7D (still lusting over a 5D MKII) due to costs and spent the saved money on a lens. I don't shoot motor sports but I'm guessing the 7D would serve you well. Why not buy second hand? A 7D will cost around £850 -£900 which leaves a healthy budget for a zoom lens (70-200mm 2.8 IS, £1350) and a prime for portraits (50mm 1.4, £250)? See how you get on and if you think you are missing something from that setup later on then re-evaluate your kit then?

I spent too much time thinking about what kit to buy and went round in a huge circle. Time I could have spent learning how to use my kit properly! :bang:
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Why do you lust after a 5D2 when everyone says you've got the better AF?

fair about about buying used but my avenues are limited - I need to trust the seller and the other forums I'm on, there's nothing towards the pro end of DSLR's being put for sale.

I'll take a look at those lenses though
 
odd jim said:
Not really... I don't think its that simple. And Don't forget youll still get more light through to the sensor with the f/2.8 lens than the f/4, no matter what body they're on.

If you want good dof just buy a couple of fast primes. You can get a used canon 50mm f/1.8 and canon 35mm f/2 for about £250 all in, and all the dof you could ever need!
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fair point.
 
OK guys, one more twist.


After the Nikon was mentioned earlier in the thread I've spoken to a mate who's a pro & uses Nikon's. He's got two D700 (He sells his photos for good money) & says that's all the camera I need.

Is he right, does that get me the best of FF & AF world?

I've never considered Nikon before but I'm researching it now.
 
alchemistkevin said:
you reckon i should be looking at Nikon???? serious question.

I just want a camera as an end to my means, while I'd prefer a Canon, I won't let the preference handicap me.
Click to expand...

Yes because the d700 is FF and has AF system comparable to 7d. And this is coming from someone who curently owns canon gear. if i was starting over again i would consider a nikon.

tbh ask youself this question.

whats more important to u? noise free shallow depth images or a focused shot?
 
alchemistkevin said:
Why do you lust after a 5D2 when everyone says you've got the better AF?

fair about about buying used but my avenues are limited - I need to trust the seller and the other forums I'm on, there's nothing towards the pro end of DSLR's being put for sale.

I'll take a look at those lenses though
Click to expand...

I don't really shoot fast moving objects (yet!) so the AF isn't an issue for me. I had a 5D MK I and loved the FF goodness. Still, I'm happy with the 7D and maybe I'll pick up a 5D MK II in the distant future. I've started investing in EF-S lenses so I know I'm sticking with the 7D for a while. I may even pick up a 5D MK I body again just to curb my FF craving.
 
alchemistkevin said:
OK guys, one more twist.


After the Nikon was mentioned earlier in the thread I've spoken to a mate who's a pro & uses Nikon's. He's got two D700 (He sells his photos for good money) & says that's all the camera I need.

Is he right, does that get me the best of FF & AF world?

I've never considered Nikon before but I'm researching it now.
Click to expand...

Why not ask him if you can have a play? Its the best way to answer your question. If it does what you want then you will know the answer! ;)
 
The Nikon D700 is a great camera but Nikon lenses are more expensive and the range of lenses is smaller. If you are not interested in video, it is probably better suited to your needs than the 7d or 5d.
 
jonneymendoza said:
Yes because the d700 is FF and has AF system comparable to 7d. And this is coming from someone who curently owns canon gear. if i was starting over again i would consider a nikon.

tbh ask youself this question.

whats more important to u? noise free shallow depth images or a focused shot?
Click to expand...
Thanks, tbh, I assumed one meant the other with FF cameras, if it focuses correctly and quickly (and I've set everything else right) I'll get a shallow DoF with proper focussed images? or am I missing something?
 
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