Help choosing Wide-angle lens

Frostlord

Suspended / Banned
Messages
14
Name
Mark
Edit My Images
Yes
Hi guys, I'm quite new to all this and have recently purchased a Nikon D3300 with a 18-55 VR II Lens.

I'm hoping to purchase a wide-angle lens because I would like to be doing a lot of landscape photography, but I need help deciding which one to buy.

After a bit of research I have come across the Sigma 8-16mm f/4.5-5.6 DC HSM and the Nikon AF-S 10-24mm f/3.5-4.5G ED DX.

Are these good options? Is there any other cheaper or alternative ones I should consider?

Any help would be appreciated, Thanks
 
In a similar range of focal lengths are the Sigma 10-20 (a couple of versions IIRC) and the Nikkor 12-24 Dx. TBH though, I would wait until you run into the limitations of the kit lens before spending too much more money on extra lenses.
 
Sigma 10-20 is a winner or the tokina 11-16mm
 
I've the Sigma 10-20mm for my Canon and it's a great lens, i'd certainly recommend it - I've been very pleased with the results I've got with it - certainly worth a look...
 
Thanks guys, sigma seems like a good choice. Is the Tokina 11-16mm just as good?
How does it compare?
 
The tokina is supposed to be better....... But I think it costs more! I loved my sigma!
 
I'm not sure! Get yourself on the bay of e....
 
First word of advice, for Landscape, more land don't make more photo.

I am working on a tutorial on this topic, having finally acquired something with an angle of view over 70 Degrees that's not a fish, but having lived without an ultra-wide angle lens for quarter of a century, I can say fairly emphatically that you probably don't need one, and that its almost certain not to give you what you think you want. If you Google UWA photography artcles will all tell you they aren't about getting wider, they are about getting closer and dramatic perspective.

If you are taking 'boring' landcapes, a UWA wont get that BIG LANDSCAPE into your camera, 'cos it will still be being displayed at whatever size your screen is! It will just compress even more 'boring' into that space, and you will get even less 'impact' from your shots.

Now, using software stitching with a BIT of care, attention, and judicious restraint.... you can, in just a simple three-shot 'stitch', get the same side to side and top to bottom angle of view from your 'kit' 18-55 at 18, as you would get from an UWA used at 10mm.. about as wide as most will go.....

Stitching is NOT, I repeat not, a substitute for an Ultra-Wide lens, but stitching software is cheap tending to 'free'.. UWA's are expensive tending to wallet-heart-attack inducing! And while it's not ideal or without 'issues' for taking large landscapes, stitching is much more in its comfort-zone and viable.

On a Nikon APC-C, the Kit 18-55 offers, 66-Degrees across the wide-side, 47-Degrees across the low-side. A 10mm UWA aprox 88 Deg on the wide, 66 on the low... so if you turn your camera on it's side to the 'portrait' orientation, you are getting the top to bottom Field of View of a 10mm UWA from a kit at 18, and one shot n the middle, and one either side with a god half a shot over-lap, you have that same 88-Degree side to side coverage of a 10mm UWA.

This means you can get UWA shots, with the kit you got now, without spending any money and just using a little care and technique. And in Landscape Photography, developing that care ad technique will take you a awful lot further than trying to 'buy' better photo's from more gear. As said, if you are taking boring landscapes, then an UWA will just pack more boring into them.

To get better, more interesting Landscapes, you need to learn to look for the interest, the little details. As said, easy to stand under a big sky and go "WoW" awed by the scale of the scene you see before you, but you don't get that a photo, where its reduced to an 8x10" print or computer monitor! While, before we go 'wide' we tend to be pretty 'bad; pointing the camera at the thing of interest in or scene, putting that slap in the centre of the frame, and not noticing distracting foreground detail at the bottom, or the edges and corners.. and an UWA will give a heck of a lot more of that.. a milder angle of view lens, not packing so much scene in the frame is often helping you, not including these in the first place.

Working with the it 18-55 you actually have a lot more versatility to lean to take better landscapes, using it to find the interest and frame on that interest and concentrate the viewers attention on it.. learn to use it, learn to get 'intersting' landscapes from quality over quantity, you may NEVER want or need an UWA Lens, and if you do.... probably NOT for Landscapes.

So if you are new to the game, that's where advise you to start. Forget the adverts and the brochure. Look at books, look at other folks 'interesting' landscapes, and what makes them interesting. Work on your composition and finding the interest, not on the camera. Camera is significantly unportant and it cant do this job for you. Some of the best landcapes I have ever taken have been with a 35mm compact film camera with a fixed 35mm lens that, these days isn't even considered a 'wide-angle' any more, but a slightly wide standard! Took some damned fine candids and 'event' shots folk praise UWA's for, with that little camera and its 'standard angle' lens, too!

So, for now, my advice is get some more practice, not some more gear. Work with what you got, and get the best from it you can. More gear wont get you better photo's, know how will.Work on the know-how.
 
For academic interest, checking DigitalRev's webby, choices (for Nikon DX) are:-

Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 10-24mm F3.5-4.5G ED...........£ 509.00
Tokina AT-X 11-20mm F2.8 PRO DX .........................£ 309.00
Tamron SP AF10-24mm F/3.5-4.5 Di-II.......................£ 249.00
Sigma 10-20mm f3.5 EX DC HSM..............................£ 299.00
Sigma 10-20mm f/4-5.6 EX DC HSM...........................£ 249.00
Sigma 8-16mm F4.5-5.6 DC HSM .............................£ 389.00
Voigtlander Heliar Ultra Wide 12mm f/5.6 II.................£ 469.00

Dealing with the last first, the Voigtlander 12 is almost the most expensive in the list. Its also got the slowest max aperture, and its not a zoom. Very highly rated lens for optics, BUT, on a DX format camera its not all that amazingly wide, and its incredibly expensive!

Sigma 10-20?, well priced almost the cheapest in the list, in fact if you got a deal on the f4.5 version, it probably would be. Ken Rockwell doesn't like sigma, and gave it luke warm priase in review, but others like it, and reckon its possibly a tad 'better' than the newer faster version.

Tokina 11-20. Its cheaper than the Sigma 8-16, but more expensive than the Sigma 10-20. Reviewers rate it higher than either tough and some suggest its a seriouse rival for the more expensive Nikkor.

Nikkor.. most expensive in the list, and probably not the best. Discrepancy in prce between it and equally vanuted Tokina and the budget Tameron probably shows how much premium is placed on the Nikkor badge as it does anything else.

Tameron 10-24, offers a bt more coverage back at the bottom end of the kit lens,like the Nikon, but is half the price! Fastest aperture equals the Sigma but not quite the Tokina, if fast apertures are important, which for Landscape they shouldn't. Rivals the Sigma well, and reviews dont offer compelling reason to go one way or 'tother.

Sigma 8-16.. almost as expensive as the Nikkor... and if you do some digging, its optically a little 'iffy' if you want to start getting into pixel peeping detail. You also cant fit a filter to one, which is possible worth consideration for landscapes.. It IS however the 'widest' with a field of view of almost 114 Deg. on the wide-side I think its about 130 ish diagonal? Reviews? Ken still dont like Sigma's and grudgingly concedes its field of view is 'impressive'.. Other's suggest that it should be the estate agents favourite for internal architecture, but extra wide not worth the extra distortion to any-one else, or Wow at the creative potential it offers.

Voting with MY wallet, untested, I plumped for the Sigma 8-16,last week. It was a close call between the 8-16 and the F4.5 version of the 10-20, which is an awful lot cheaper... enough fact I could have bought that and a Nikon 35mm f1.8 prime as well... making call even tougher! Head said the 10-20 'cos 'VFM', heart said 8-16, just cos.. wide! But ultimately spending that much money, in for a penny, in for a wallet pounding! Might as well get what I really 'want' rather than make do.. I wont get away with it very often, so make the most of it! I've been wanting something 'wider' than 28mmn a 35mm film camera since that was all we had, so, after this long think I deserve it!

Practically, the 10-20 and ability to fit filters, would have been wiser if I expected to predominately use it for Landscapes, where with such a wide field of view grabbing lots of sky and an awful lot of potential high contrast scenery would have meant I could exploit graduated filters.. but I dont expect to be taking that many landscapes with it, I rarely use filters, and less grads, so something I can live with.

Sigma? Well, I dont have Ken Rockwells bias, and I dont rely on my income from using them, or promoting them. As an ameteur, I doubt that I will use it hard enough for the build quality to ever be an issue, while as even a keener ameteur I doubt will ever push the limits so far at the minute differences in optical properties will ever be apparent to me let alone significant to my photo's! Tameron would probably have done the job just as well as the Siga 10-20.. Nikon would have been 'nice' to keep to the system, but? More expensive still, still not as wide, and the badge not really worth twice the price, to me at least.

Tokina? Now there's the googlie. Its slap in the middle of everything. It doesn't win on price, it doesn't win on 'wide', it doesn't have any overlap back to the normal range, on all the specs it just doesn't quite make it, but over-all? Everyone rates it far higher than the numbers suggest... and for only a little more than the f3.5 version of the Sigma 10-20? I seriously considered it... but, nudging the price up over £300 rather than keeping it under, polarised my ideas between the two Sigmas; for VFM the 10-20, or for 'Wide' the 8-16.

But that was MY reasoning... For some-one starting out, for land-scape photography? There would be an awful lot of gear I would rank more important than a UWA; a tripod for starters, a reliable cable or radio release after that, and practice, more practice, and even more practice still, before anything else!

£250, the cheapest of these lenses, would for me be a long week-end in the Lake-District, 'all in' in a B&B, and opportunity to find 'interesting' landscapes to get pictures of, no lens would find for me sat here in a dreary industrial town near Coventry! Heck, take the bike, take the tent, and I could make that money stretch to a fortnight of photo-indulgence! OR? Make it a long-week-end, take er nibs, chuck in a steak dinner and a Maccy-D's and win some brownie points rather than getting moaned at to "put that damned camera down!" But you get the idea. Lenses wont find you photo-ops! You still have to do that, whatever glass you stick on the front of the camera.

Now.. I wonder whether I can sneak out to the kick-back show at Stonleigh next month....lol.
 
After a quick scan I didn't see any mention of the Sigma 12-24mm, so I've mentioned it :D

It's worth a look as it's an excellent lens with minimal distortion, and it's full frame compatible. I used one on my Canon 20D (APS-C) and then 5D (FF.) It's a very good lens.

And as per Mike... and reinforcing that stitching will not give you the same perspective and look I'll also say that wide angle lenses are arguably some of the most difficult to use well. IMO they require thought and care but get it right and they can give a quite unique and even stunning look.
 
First word of advice, for Landscape, more land don't make more photo.

I am working on a tutorial on this topic, having finally acquired something with an angle of view over 70 Degrees that's not a fish, but having lived without an ultra-wide angle lens for quarter of a century, I can say fairly emphatically that you probably don't need one, and that its almost certain not to give you what you think you want. If you Google UWA photography artcles will all tell you they aren't about getting wider, they are about getting closer and dramatic perspective.

If you are taking 'boring' landcapes, a UWA wont get that BIG LANDSCAPE into your camera, 'cos it will still be being displayed at whatever size your screen is! It will just compress even more 'boring' into that space, and you will get even less 'impact' from your shots.

Now, using software stitching with a BIT of care, attention, and judicious restraint.... you can, in just a simple three-shot 'stitch', get the same side to side and top to bottom angle of view from your 'kit' 18-55 at 18, as you would get from an UWA used at 10mm.. about as wide as most will go.....

Stitching is NOT, I repeat not, a substitute for an Ultra-Wide lens, but stitching software is cheap tending to 'free'.. UWA's are expensive tending to wallet-heart-attack inducing! And while it's not ideal or without 'issues' for taking large landscapes, stitching is much more in its comfort-zone and viable.

On a Nikon APC-C, the Kit 18-55 offers, 66-Degrees across the wide-side, 47-Degrees across the low-side. A 10mm UWA aprox 88 Deg on the wide, 66 on the low... so if you turn your camera on it's side to the 'portrait' orientation, you are getting the top to bottom Field of View of a 10mm UWA from a kit at 18, and one shot n the middle, and one either side with a god half a shot over-lap, you have that same 88-Degree side to side coverage of a 10mm UWA.

This means you can get UWA shots, with the kit you got now, without spending any money and just using a little care and technique. And in Landscape Photography, developing that care ad technique will take you a awful lot further than trying to 'buy' better photo's from more gear. As said, if you are taking boring landscapes, then an UWA will just pack more boring into them.

To get better, more interesting Landscapes, you need to learn to look for the interest, the little details. As said, easy to stand under a big sky and go "WoW" awed by the scale of the scene you see before you, but you don't get that a photo, where its reduced to an 8x10" print or computer monitor! While, before we go 'wide' we tend to be pretty 'bad; pointing the camera at the thing of interest in or scene, putting that slap in the centre of the frame, and not noticing distracting foreground detail at the bottom, or the edges and corners.. and an UWA will give a heck of a lot more of that.. a milder angle of view lens, not packing so much scene in the frame is often helping you, not including these in the first place.

Working with the it 18-55 you actually have a lot more versatility to lean to take better landscapes, using it to find the interest and frame on that interest and concentrate the viewers attention on it.. learn to use it, learn to get 'intersting' landscapes from quality over quantity, you may NEVER want or need an UWA Lens, and if you do.... probably NOT for Landscapes.

So if you are new to the game, that's where advise you to start. Forget the adverts and the brochure. Look at books, look at other folks 'interesting' landscapes, and what makes them interesting. Work on your composition and finding the interest, not on the camera. Camera is significantly unportant and it cant do this job for you. Some of the best landcapes I have ever taken have been with a 35mm compact film camera with a fixed 35mm lens that, these days isn't even considered a 'wide-angle' any more, but a slightly wide standard! Took some damned fine candids and 'event' shots folk praise UWA's for, with that little camera and its 'standard angle' lens, too!

So, for now, my advice is get some more practice, not some more gear. Work with what you got, and get the best from it you can. More gear wont get you better photo's, know how will.Work on the know-how.
That's a great read and some great advice in there. However, the 18-55 kit lens is just not sharp.
 
However, the 18-55 kit lens is just not sharp.
Just as well, I might cut myself! ';) 'Sharp' is a bit subjective. - It's rather off topic, but I am inclined to agree with you, up to a not particularly 'sharp' point.. which hinges on the 'importance' of this 'sharpness' every-one puts so much store by.

Kit 18-55.. no.. it's not, by quite a long stretch a fantastic high grade lens. But, its far from a 'Bad' lens. By definition of 'quality' being fitness for purpose, rather than any specific and potentially redundant 'excellence', its actually a very 'good quality' bit of kit. An Aston Martin is a very good car but, it's no better for going to the shops than my Honda Civic, while neither will do my shopping for me!

Shipping with the camera body, and retailing with it as a 'kit' often cheaper than the body-only, it's almost a 'free' lens, so damned good value for money. It covers an incredibly useful range of focal lengths around the 'normal' angle of view. It's acceptably 'fast' at f3.5/5.6, has a fairly good close focus, and it's optically pretty 'reasonable' for most situations. And for expected users, it's actually very very well tailored and few are going to be let down by it, and learning to 'look', ought be able to get a lot of very good photo's with it, that a 'higher grade' lens wont get for them, or make much if any 'better', if they do.

Nikon, upping the game in their sensors, I think have probably run ahead of their 'kit' lenses a little, and it's not that the 18-55 is 'poor' just not as good as the 24Mpix+ sensors used in cameras developed since they designed it. I have 24Mpix D3200, my daughter has 16Mpix D3100. Both shipped with the 18-55, and for the most part the lens is pretty darn good, and a 'newby' buying an entry level DSLR is unlikely to be disappointed by it or notice any particular 'fault', especially without anything else to compare it to.

I do, and using 'legacy' M42 screw primes lenses on either camera...yeah... there's a 'difference'. It's not obvious, and a little less so on the lower sensor-res D3100. Daughter has the 'hobby' f1.8 35 & 50's for her camera, and intriguing to compare them to using my Pentacon 29 and Zeiss 50 Legacy lenses, as well as kit 18-55 covering the same rage.. Still a 'difference', but particularly used at wider f-stops, it's not really 'sharpness' or lack-of that is being shown up, apertures wider than f3.5 reducing Depth of Field and softening the image anyway. You have to be shooting over about f8 and at longer subject distances to get front-to-back sharpness across the frame where it might, at quite significant pixel peeping magnification be observed. And THEN, I am not convinced that what is perceived as 'sharpness' by many, is actually the optics of the lens and the size of the circles of confusion rendering small detail in the scene, so much as digital processing sampling the tones and making a 'harder' cut-off between levels, creating more clinical 'contrast' , generating an 'illusion' of sharpness from dumping detail and 'subtlety' in tonal rendition. And so the subject and lighting is likely to as often to be responsible for whether we 'see' a picture as 'sharp' or not, as the lens or f-stop.

Meanwhile, I said that sharpness is subjective. Regardless of what it is that's delivering this 'sharpness', do we actually WANT it? Does it really make photo's 'better'? Like said, what we perceive as sharpness, I think is as often as not a lack of tonal subtlety, a contrast reduction making the image more clinical, harsher and colder. We didn't have this obsession about 'sharpness' when all we had was film, and rendering of silver halide was inherently that much more subtle and less 'sharp', and folk praised slow film or for that subtlety or different emulsions for the 'warmth' of skin-tones they rendered, or the colour saturation they delivered, irrespective of the grade of optics that put them there!
 
Just as well, I might cut myself! ';) 'Sharp' is a bit subjective. - It's rather off topic, but I am inclined to agree with you, up to a not particularly 'sharp' point.. which hinges on the 'importance' of this 'sharpness' every-one puts so much store by.

Kit 18-55.. no.. it's not, by quite a long stretch a fantastic high grade lens. But, its far from a 'Bad' lens. By definition of 'quality' being fitness for purpose, rather than any specific and potentially redundant 'excellence', its actually a very 'good quality' bit of kit. An Aston Martin is a very good car but, it's no better for going to the shops than my Honda Civic, while neither will do my shopping for me!

Shipping with the camera body, and retailing with it as a 'kit' often cheaper than the body-only, it's almost a 'free' lens, so damned good value for money. It covers an incredibly useful range of focal lengths around the 'normal' angle of view. It's acceptably 'fast' at f3.5/5.6, has a fairly good close focus, and it's optically pretty 'reasonable' for most situations. And for expected users, it's actually very very well tailored and few are going to be let down by it, and learning to 'look', ought be able to get a lot of very good photo's with it, that a 'higher grade' lens wont get for them, or make much if any 'better', if they do.

Nikon, upping the game in their sensors, I think have probably run ahead of their 'kit' lenses a little, and it's not that the 18-55 is 'poor' just not as good as the 24Mpix+ sensors used in cameras developed since they designed it. I have 24Mpix D3200, my daughter has 16Mpix D3100. Both shipped with the 18-55, and for the most part the lens is pretty darn good, and a 'newby' buying an entry level DSLR is unlikely to be disappointed by it or notice any particular 'fault', especially without anything else to compare it to.

I do, and using 'legacy' M42 screw primes lenses on either camera...yeah... there's a 'difference'. It's not obvious, and a little less so on the lower sensor-res D3100. Daughter has the 'hobby' f1.8 35 & 50's for her camera, and intriguing to compare them to using my Pentacon 29 and Zeiss 50 Legacy lenses, as well as kit 18-55 covering the same rage.. Still a 'difference', but particularly used at wider f-stops, it's not really 'sharpness' or lack-of that is being shown up, apertures wider than f3.5 reducing Depth of Field and softening the image anyway. You have to be shooting over about f8 and at longer subject distances to get front-to-back sharpness across the frame where it might, at quite significant pixel peeping magnification be observed. And THEN, I am not convinced that what is perceived as 'sharpness' by many, is actually the optics of the lens and the size of the circles of confusion rendering small detail in the scene, so much as digital processing sampling the tones and making a 'harder' cut-off between levels, creating more clinical 'contrast' , generating an 'illusion' of sharpness from dumping detail and 'subtlety' in tonal rendition. And so the subject and lighting is likely to as often to be responsible for whether we 'see' a picture as 'sharp' or not, as the lens or f-stop.

Meanwhile, I said that sharpness is subjective. Regardless of what it is that's delivering this 'sharpness', do we actually WANT it? Does it really make photo's 'better'? Like said, what we perceive as sharpness, I think is as often as not a lack of tonal subtlety, a contrast reduction making the image more clinical, harsher and colder. We didn't have this obsession about 'sharpness' when all we had was film, and rendering of silver halide was inherently that much more subtle and less 'sharp', and folk praised slow film or for that subtlety or different emulsions for the 'warmth' of skin-tones they rendered, or the colour saturation they delivered, irrespective of the grade of optics that put them there!

Wow thanks for the replies Teflon-Mike.
Very informative and a good read.
It gives me a lot to think about and consider.
Appreciate it mate
 
My second lens on a nikon DX would always be the 35mm f/1.8. I did exactly what the OP is doing and bought the Sigma 10-20mm early on and sold it on not long after.
 
Back
Top