Help, am I being stiched up?

TriggerHappy198 said:
I wish there was a compromise, I am happy for the B&G and there families to receive the images, in full resolution as thats whats what I agreed, I just cant think of a way to ensure the guests and friends don't get hold of the images for free aswell
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What are they planning to do with the images.? Probably going to get some printed somewhere. Just tell them you dont mind getting them printed for them at cost price so there is no chance of copies (except for scanning later)

I think you can sort this out ammicably without upsetting anyone just by being honest and not making any money for the B&G prints. I'm sure some guests will be slightly upset that they cant get them for free but remember that you are not a charity.

Offer them the full res pics on cd once you have made enough to cover your costs and a bit more.
 
Heh maybe your point was lingering around cyclone and my repeat just whaped it in with a sledgehammer touch ?
 
cyclone said:
I'm sure I suggested something similar about 40 mins ago lol.
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sorry, I'm quite overwhelmed with the amount of replies I have received and must have missed yours lol
 
Headless Lois said:
I agree with everyone who has indicated that you need to let it go on this occasion. You are going to annoy the b+g if they don't get what they think they're getting, surely? At this point, what's more important - building a good customer relationship that could get you referrals in the future, whilst you've added to your portfolio, or getting a few quid?

L
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Yeah you are right.

Its not so much the money, or how much I get that I care about now, its the principal that no one seems to want to pay anything, almost like they all deserve the images for free
 
Sadly its the case of, pick up a camera and your instantly a photographer, people dont realise the work and practice that goes into the shoot let alone the PP
 
TriggerHappy198 said:
Yeah you are right.

Its not so much the money, or how much I get that I care about now, its the principal that no one seems to want to pay anything, almost like they all deserve the images for free
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I completely feel your pain, and have been in a similar, non wedding related, situation recently. However, it's almost always down to not being clear at the start what exactly the terms are.

L
 
I'd say put it down to experience and learn from it. You may get a few referrals from guests/the family and if you do, take the experience into consideration for next time. I think good word-of-mouth is more important than getting a (albeit minor) reputation for being protective over images from your first ever wedding (even though I do, in princple, agree that the "burn and copy" mentality is a bit naughty).
 
Yeah, and at least I will be more prepared next time and I can make sure something like this doesn't happen again, I will probably watermark the images of groups of guests, as the only people likely to purchase them, if anyone, would be the guests. Also would I need to seek their permission before using the images in my portfolio?

Thanks for all your help guys :thumbs:
 
As far as im aware you wouldnt need their permission, but it couldnt hurt to ask, maybe sell them a discount print for them letting you use pics of them :D
 
Not for your portfolio, website or whatever. To use for stock or commercial gain then yes.
 
cyclone said:
Not for your portfolio, website or whatever. To use for stock or commercial gain then yes.
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ok, does the same apply for children? One of the bridesmaids was about 5, and there was also a baby there which I have a couple of pictures of
 
Same, just the consent for Stock etc. would have to come from the parent or guardian.
 
ok thankyou

I have no intention of using them for stock but they will prob end up on my website, once ive finished it
 
Put a massive COPYRIGHT sign on the CD and it's box - forget about watermarks - then, two weeks later, subtly ask a couple of the guests if they received a CD of the photos and whether they liked the images etc... If they do have a copy, then go to the B+G and point out the copyright symbol - then I suppose it's up to you as to what/if any action you take. :thumbs:
 
thanks theres a lot of handy info in there :clap:
 
TriggerHappy198 said:
Maybe if I supply a dvd disk with a slideshow of all the images, which will be playable on there DVD players, but make it so they cant copy/save/print the images, and also supply a disk of heavily watermarked JPGs I wont be doing anything wrong
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Playable dvd sounds good, but do you need supply anything else?
 
This seems to have polarised opinion into two camps: Take it on the chin or try to outsmart them.

Well you didn't charge a fee for this, so they have no rights to the pics, just your goodwill. On the basis that you are not a pro and not experienced, it's probably also clear that you didn't agree to give all the guests free access to the pictures. I would definitely suggest that a chat to the B&G to clear this up would be worthwhile.

Why not consider a photobox pro album where you can post the pics and people can order what they require. You can specify the markup on their standard price and make a few quid that way. Perhaps suggest that you can produce them an album if you sell enough prints to relatives (obviously make sure your markup covers that!).

I do hope you can sort this out.

Graham
 
ha ive only just realised I spelled "stitched" wrong in the title

Maybe it is best if I speak to the B&G, although I think its the Grooms mum that going to be the tough one, shes the one who told the guests she would give them pics for free, and at the beginning of the evening party I forgot she was part of the family and gave her an order form for the images, to which she then turned around and said (quite rudely) I thought I didn't have to pay for any of the pics.
 
another option is to foret about the cd with images on ... and create a photobook for them with their images in if they want individual images then sell them on a per photo basis .... explain to the B&G the conversation the Brides mother had about the giving away of your images... if you are to giv a disk away to the B&G as mentioned put awatermark across the images, not a real horrendous one but a subtle one , that will be seen on any prints. put txt files on the disk with a copyright notice on and one saying how to contact you for clean copies.... if they have a copyright file then the processing places shouldn't (Tongue in cheek) agree to print any pictures .... best to speak to the B&G first *** before you do anything else
 
One question springs to mind.

You say you would like the B&G to give recommendations, word of mouth etc, but would you really like recommendations along the lines of

"the photographer was really good AND DIDN'T EVEN CHARGE US"?

Think about it.
 
TriggerHappy198 said:
I dont mind supplying the B&Gs family with the images, I think its really cheeky that the grooms mum told the guests not to buy my prints as she will give them copies for free.
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You own the copyright it would be un lawful for her to do so I think
 
TriggerHappy198 said:
Hi all

*snip*

I agreed to do it for her for free, after all it was going to be my first wedding. I told her I would provide her and her direct family with a CD of the images, and my mum was going to pay for one of the images to be printed as a wedding gift. I was planning to make money from the friends and guests purchasing prints from me

*snip*

This has left me feeling betrayed, as although I agreed to do the wedding for free and I can use the day as good experience, I put a lot of effort into taking the pictures and editing them, and think its right that the guests/friends should pay to have the images

*snip
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Hi TriggerHappy, I've picked out what I consider to be the important points in your first post namely that you promised to provide her and her direct family with a CD of the images. Hopefully you will have learnt an important lesson here in that once you release images on to a CD you lose control of those images, it doesn't matter what the law says because it is human nature you have to deal with and whilst I understand you feel betrayed you must remember that not everyone is as honest or ethical as you.

It appears you have entered into this verbal contract without thinking it through completely and if you now renege on the deal you will probably do a lot of long term damage to your fledgling business. I don't mean to sound harsh as I am just speaking as I find but it is your business naivety that is partially to blame, we've all done it and I've made some monstrous cock ups in my time :D but I have learnt from these errors.

I would strongly advise that you supply the CD as agreed but ask the woman not to give copies to other people, it will probably fall on deaf ears. I would also put a text document on the disc with your copyright info and stating that it is licensed to [insert name] only, it probably won't do any good but you never know :). So move on, take it on the chin and make sure you don't make the same mistake again!
 
pbucks said:
One question springs to mind.

You say you would like the B&G to give recommendations, word of mouth etc, but would you really like recommendations along the lines of

"the photographer was really good AND DIDN'T EVEN CHARGE US"?

Think about it.
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Which means any prospective clients would be told, I hope, that things have changed! I think you can fairly attribute a "free" service down to the fact that it was his first wedding (though expenses or a small fee would've been nice). No point stirring the pot when terms were not laid out from the get-go. All a learning experience I would say.
 
Hacker said:
Hi TriggerHappy, I've picked out what I consider to be the important points in your first post namely that you promised to provide her and her direct family with a CD of the images. Hopefully you will have learnt an important lesson here in that once you release images on to a CD you lose control of those images, it doesn't matter what the law says because it is human nature you have to deal with and whilst I understand you feel betrayed you must remember that not everyone is as honest or ethical as you.

It appears you have entered into this verbal contract without thinking it through completely and if you now renege on the deal you will probably do a lot of long term damage to your fledgling business. I don't mean to sound harsh as I am just speaking as I find but it is your business naivety that is partially to blame, we've all done it and I've made some monstrous cock ups in my time :D but I have learnt from these errors.

I would strongly advise that you supply the CD as agreed but ask the woman not to give copies to other people, it will probably fall on deaf ears. I would also put a text document on the disc with your copyright info and stating that it is licensed to [insert name] only, it probably won't do any good but you never know :). So move on, take it on the chin and make sure you don't make the same mistake again!
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:agree:

Better than I could put it - nail on head!
 
Hi TriggerHappy,

Hackers post pretty much sums it up - Live and learn

If you are not prepared to "live and learn" you could look at placing some sort of DRM software on the CD's to stop them being copied etc.
 
Hiya

Not read the entire thread from top to tail, but most of the first few pages - so apologies if what I suggest has already been discussed.

Firstly I quote from your original post.

TriggerHappy198 said:
I agreed to do it for her for free, after all it was going to be my first wedding. I told her I would provide her and her direct family with a CD of the images, and my mum was going to pay for one of the images to be printed as a wedding gift. I was planning to make money from the friends and guests purchasing prints from me

I displayed the images on a large TV at the evening party, and there seemed to be a lot of interest, however, I think I overheard the groom's mum telling a group of the friends/guests that she would provide them all with copies of the CDs and that they didn't need to buy them. Guess what, I've received no orders

This has left me feeling betrayed, as although I agreed to do the wedding for free and I can use the day as good experience, I put a lot of effort into taking the pictures and editing them, and think its right that the guests/friends should pay to have the images

To make matters worse I now have the bride constantly nagging at my mum at work asking for me to hurry up and give her the CD
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  • Create several copies of a wonderful looking slideshow on DVD, complete with menus et al, but ensure that the 1st slide is an image you created that has text (created in Powerpoint or CS/PShop) that clearly says that all the images are copyrighted, and all orders for prints should be placed with you.
    • Include your email address and mobile number so that anyone who watches the DVD can easily contact you.
    • Have this particular slide display for a long time.
    • State that you have happily provided copies of the DVD free of charge
    • Perhaps say you were more than happy to take an unpaid day off work to do their wedding shots as you very much enjoyed the experience and maybe offer a thank-you to the B&G for allowing you to do this as your first wedding and for agreeing to allow you to sell prints through you. (Put this across politely and gratefully; this way, anyone - including the G's Mum - seeing the images will know what you agreed with the B&G beforehand)
  • Don't provide a CD of images, multiple copies of the DVD will suffice. Ensure a copy of this gets to the B&G and their families.
  • Speak with the B&G and ask them which image off the DVD they would like to get printed - the one your Mum offered to pay for. Ask for which size they want. Once they have provided this, set delivery expectations.
  • Speak with the B&G about an album. Offer to prepare an album for them containing whatever images they choose from the DVD, and say you will find out about a price for this. Or, offer them prints of what they choose and then get them a price for those. You don't have to add a significant mark-up to the prints really, and maybe offer to get them done for them at print cost plus your costs (unpaid day off work + £10 to friend) and then explain this to them so that the B&G understand all is fair, and that nobody is out of pocket.
  • If you are sure you heard the G's Mum say what you thought you overheard, you might want to mention this to your Mum. Also mention that you were slightly confused about this, as images cannot be copied from a DVD slideshow so she (or you) might want to inform the B&G of this.
How's that for a starter for 10... :)
 
I can't help feeling some of the wedding party's family think they've got freebies all round.

Jeez. You're not going to make any money out of this but if the mum thinks she's gonna get FREE prints that's out of order. At the end of the day you can't give prints away - it costs you money and time to get them printed.

Seriously go and have a chat with the bride and groom. The time and processing you're going to have to take on the chin but any expenses for prints etc. Someone has to pay for materials. Surely they don't expect you to give paper prints away?

I'd also have a chat with with the B&G and ask that they don't tell people you did it for free. Tell them to say 'mate's rates' or whatever.

I've done a 'loss leader' or two in my time but I always ask the people I've done it for to keep that bit quiet ;o)
 
i sympathise with you on this one.
but sadly, offering to do a shoot for free is pretty much shooting yourself in the foot, if nothing is agreed in writing.
if you provide the b&g with watermarked pics, then all theyre gonna do is slag you off to any future clients.
put this one down to experience.
personally i'd be tempted to ensure cd has SUBTLE watermarks (in a corner or something) that will at least get your name up there, for future clients.
as for the nagging bride.
ring her directly.
tell her that you are making sure the photos are edited to a quality she will be pleased with, and remind her you did the job FOR FREE.

if you do another free wedding for the experience, but want to sell the images to friends /family, tell them they will receive a slideshow and NOT a printable cd.
and sort some from of written contract, before agreeing to the job.
the moral of this sad story.
people will take the pi......... if you let them.

well done for being brave enough to have a go in the first place.
 
I think i would reduce the size of the images so that they can only print 6X4 prints.

Tell them you have supplied the "free disc" for them to choose larger prints that they can have printed professionally by yourself for a small fee.(At least to cover your day off and friends payment).

If they are happy with the small prints, well you will have to write this off as experience...
 
Interesting read as i have been in the same situation.
I agreed to give the B+G a CD for their own personal use and had no orders, then found out that the family had large prints up on the wall of the photos i took.
I wasnt bitter as i should have had it written down, but then again even if i did, what was i going to do ? Take them to Court ? not happening.

Nowadays i know that people want all the photos and print them themselves so i bit the bullet and just charge a set fee for all the photos on a CD and make some money if they want an album. Or i can print them (most people go the CD route), making sure i get enough money from either package without sales of prints.

Sounds to me you have been stitched up, so lesson learned, dont let anyone else do that.
 
Why worry about getting future recommendations from people who steal your images - is that the sort of client you'd want in the future?
 
I'm with Cyclone and a couple of others on this.

Get about 10 8x10" prints done in high quality (pick the 10 best of the bunch). You could even stretch to a decent album without breaking the bank. Call it your wedding gift ;) On the inside sleeve pop a disc in which contains only copyrighted shots on, with a piece of paper stating your prices (keep them cheap) for prints of any other shots. Don't forget a small copyright notice to.

Not only will they be chuffed to have a little album out of it, but you could still earn from prints. Give them something they weren't expecting to make them smile. It will lessen the blow of the copyrighted disc.

In future, think very carefully about how you do business. Treat this as a learning curve.

BTW, where are these pictures? :D
 
awp said:
Why worry about getting future recommendations from people who steal your images - is that the sort of client you'd want in the future?
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you think they will probably only know image stealing freebie hunters?

L
 
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