Hajj stampede: At least 220 killed in Saudi Arabia

ST4 said:
In other words, you cannot justify your comments or posts and you are resorting to personal abuse to retaliate. Good on you. Have a good evening.
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I can justify them fine thanks but I would have to use words of more than two syllables and I'm pretty sure your head would melt.

Have a nice evening also. If the weather is anything like it is down here then there should be somenice sunset photographs waiting to be taken. I look forward to seeing them.
 
norters said:
I can justify them fine thanks but I would have to use words of more than two syllables and I'm pretty sure your head would melt.

Have a nice evening also. If the weather is anything like it is down here then there should be somenice sunset photographs waiting to be taken. I look forward to seeing them.
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The weathers rubbish here but if you pop onto the landscapes section of the forum you can see some of my photographs there to see.
 
dejongj said:
I sort of get the point. If you are religious in that sense, then you can't get away from it that God must have had a hand in these tragic events as well. The question to ask is then; why? Why would God allow that to happen to so many people?
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Philosophers and theologians answered that centuries ago.
 
sphexx said:
I referred to the stonings and beheadings in Saudi earlier. These too are religious ceremonies. They are so popular and attracted such excited crowds that the Saudis have taken to not announcing them in advance.
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I'm still not seeing what relevance stonings and beheadings have to a tragic stampede at the Hajj.
Are you trying to suggest that because some Saudi Muslims stone people, that all Muslims deserve to die in stampedes?
 
I would suggest that they attempted to answer that. Surely there is no conclusive answer to it. Or is there?
 
BBC is reporting that the Saudis are blaming the pilgrims. Personally I think they should give Mecca back to the Hashemites.
 
dejongj said:
I would suggest that they attempted to answer that. Surely there is no conclusive answer to it. Or is there?
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Theology tells us that as mortals we cannot know the mind of god, so no, not a conclusive answer.
But the question of 'why does God let bad things happen?' is the most basic of theological conundrums so there's a wealth of discussion on it - of which I am ill-equipped to teach, but I'm sure there'll be a trove on the www.
 
sphexx said:
Personally I think they should give Mecca back to the Hashemites.
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Ooh, look who just found Wikipedia! :p

Still, credit to you for recognising when you were ill-informed and going away and doing some research. If more people took that approach the world would be a better place.
 
According to the Saudi's it was God's will .................... :thinking:

That's fine. Saves the cost of an enquiry and any remedial measures.
 
arclight said:
According to the Saudi's it was God's will .................... :thinking:

That's fine. Saves the cost of an enquiry and any remedial measures.
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All things that happen are the will of God, so are enquires and safety measures :-)
 
arclight said:
According to the Saudi's it was God's will .................... :thinking:

That's fine. Saves the cost of an enquiry and any remedial measures.
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Which was my point yesterday, it can be the only logical explanation in this context. The point is now, what are they going to do about it? What will the self reflection bring up? How will they move forward? It will be very interesting to see how this tragedy will be interpreted and dealt with.
 
dejongj said:
Which was my point yesterday, it can be the only logical explanation in this context. The point is now, what are they going to do about it? What will the self reflection bring up? How will they move forward? It will be very interesting to see how this tragedy will be interpreted and dealt with.
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After the last major tragedy they spent millions improving the infrastructure and security arrangements, including replacing the "pillars" with walls in 2004.. Apparently there hadn't been an incident for 7 or 8 years. Early reports stated that a couple of gates were locked that should have been open - this may prove to be an exacerbating factor or even the cause.
The crane incident was just bad luck. You get fatalities by falling cranes everywhere - even in the UK, with our more stringent health & safety rules/culture.
 
I am sure that detailed reports will come out and the families will be able to get some closure on this terrible incident.
It will be with great sadness that these people will have lost their lives on a deeply holy pilgrimage.

Looking at some of the diagrams of the flow of such enormous flows of people I cannot understand how these accidents can be prevented easily at all, all it takes is these 100s of thousands of people to just move one way or another and 100s of people will be instantly impacted. Personally I think they will have to look at overhauling the way they move the people to break up such large swathes into much smaller manageable groups..
 
Mr Bump said:
once dived on a ship out in the red sea called the Salem Express quite a few years after it sank, i
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I stayed on the boat for that dive. It would have freaked me out too much. I can remember it happening
 
Llamaman said:
After the last major tragedy they spent millions improving the infrastructure and security arrangements, including replacing the "pillars" with walls in 2004.. Apparently there hadn't been an incident for 7 or 8 years. Early reports stated that a couple of gates were locked that should have been open - this may prove to be an exacerbating factor or even the cause.
The crane incident was just bad luck. You get fatalities by falling cranes everywhere - even in the UK, with our more stringent health & safety rules/culture.
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For deeply religious people in a religious place does something like "just bad luck" exist? I don't think it does...
 
boyfalldown said:
I stayed on the boat for that dive. It would have freaked me out too much. I can remember it happening
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It was a tough call for the dive I do remember it well, the dive guards were all Egyptian and had only started diving on it a few years before. They were ok with the diving on it, it was a long time ago for them as well. I did the part which included the swim through the long tunnel where so many lost there lives through into the car deck then if memory serves me up through the funnel I think. I do have some video footage I shot somewhere which I have watched from time to time to remind me of the event.

I don't think I would dive it again though.
 
boyfalldown said:
I stayed on the boat for that dive. It would have freaked me out too much. I can remember it happening
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If you want I can find the footage and supply a link for you to watch it?
 
dejongj said:
For deeply religious people in a religious place does something like "just bad luck" exist? I don't think it does...
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I was talking about a secular discussion of the causes of these accidents and the measures taken to prevent them.

From a religious point of view, Islam would hold that the suffering is as a result of human failure. In this case, it would be inadequate safety precautions related to cranes.

There is a secondary explanation that Allah also allows suffering to be a test of the faith and charity of others.

Both of these are almost identical to the explanation offered by Christianity, which is hardly surprising, given their shared ancestry.


Edit: found this on an "ask the scholar" website;
"So to summarize, we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to Allah’s natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah’s natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, “Have we broken any law of Allah?” Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. “Could it be a punishment?” Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. “Could it be a test and trial for us?” Let us work hard to pass this test."
Almost identical to the explanation I was given at my CofE primary school.
 
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dejongj said:
For deeply religious people in a religious place does something like "just bad luck" exist? I don't think it does...
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It must be like the joke about the boss indiscriminately binning a proportion of job applicants CV's without even looking at them, "to avoid employing unlucky people."
 
Llamaman said:
I was talking about a secular discussion of the causes of these accidents and the measures taken to prevent them.

From a religious point of view, Islam would hold that the suffering is as a result of human failure. In this case, it would be inadequate safety precautions related to cranes.

There is a secondary explanation that Allah also allows suffering to be a test of the faith and charity of others.

Both of these are almost identical to the explanation offered by Christianity, which is hardly surprising, given their shared ancestry.


Edit: found this on an "ask the scholar" website;
"So to summarize, we can say that sufferings occur to teach us that we must adhere to Allah’s natural and moral laws. It is sometimes to punish those who violate Allah’s natural or moral laws. It is to test our faith in Allah and to test our commitment to human values and charity. Whenever we encounter suffering we should ask ourselves, “Have we broken any law of Allah?” Let us study the cause of the problem and use the corrective methods. “Could it be a punishment?” Let us repent and ask forgiveness and reform our ways. “Could it be a test and trial for us?” Let us work hard to pass this test."
Almost identical to the explanation I was given at my CofE primary school.
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Yup that is exactly what I meant from my first post in this thread....There is no point approaching a religious matter/event from a secular perspective in my opinion. Hence I also don't think it fair to alienate some as being without compassion, as if you do that, then surely by that measure than God is guilty as charged. As such none of this makes sense to approach in a secular manner, that level of rationality doesn't equate in my opinion.
 
or as one Muslim Cleric local to me stated on the radio this morning, "The Saudi Government are quite wrong, it has nothing to do with the will of God and everything to do with the carelessness of people"
 
gramps said:
or as one Muslim Cleric local to me stated on the radio this morning, "The Saudi Government are quite wrong, it has nothing to do with the will of God and everything to do with the carelessness of people"
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Hmm so they want their cake and eat it. I guess the same as choosing to have a bacon sandwich when they feel like it, and not when in the mosque.

To me this is not unique to Muslim, it is the hypocrisy linked to all organised religion.
 
dejongj said:
Hmm so they want their cake and eat it. I guess the same as choosing to have a bacon sandwich when they feel like it, and not when in the mosque.

To me this is not unique to Muslim, it is the hypocrisy linked to all organised religion.
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Who do you define as "they"?
 
dejongj said:
Hmm so they want their cake and eat it. I guess the same as choosing to have a bacon sandwich when they feel like it, and not when in the mosque.

To me this is not unique to Muslim, it is the hypocrisy linked to all organised religion.
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Islam has no pope or Archbishop of Canterbury to fix doctrine. It is up to individual imams to teach their own interpretation, so it is not surprising that there isn't consistency.
You wouldn't believe Catholics and Lutherians had the same holy book!
 
Llamaman said:
Islam has no pope or Archbishop of Canterbury to fix doctrine. It is up to individual imams to teach their own interpretation, so it is not surprising that there isn't consistency.
You wouldn't believe Catholics and Lutherians had the same holy book!
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But they still all have the same God. Surely if you believe in God then you believe in his actions and will. I mean if you pick and choose and fit it to the situation then what is the point?
 
If God/god/the gods didn't want us to interpret his/her/their words in completely different ways, he/she/they wouldn't have made us so daft.
 
"It was God's will" is a very bewildering concept. If you are a believer in a god how do you know it was god's will. If everything that happens is god's will then how can people that commit crime be blamed - it was god's will.

Other thing - 700 plus killed is suddenly a big fuss. Ten times that in air pollution related deaths in London every year.
 
arclight said:
"It was God's will" is a very bewildering concept. If you are a believer in a god how do you know it was god's will. If everything that happens is god's will then how can people that commit crime be blamed - it was god's will.

Other thing - 700 plus killed is suddenly a big fuss. Ten times that in air pollution related deaths in London every year.
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I think there is a subtle difference. Though shall not kill is rather universal. Event like these and what happened a few weeks ago are a force majeur and happen to happen in what some people have classed as the holiest of sights. Surely if you come from a perspective of faith then it's relevant in that context.

How people can be blamed, well most of us don't belief in a God, as such why would we blame such external forces. To me it is natural that people are to blame for this. People do so many stupid things, Muslims are not excluded from that club.
 
arclight said:
"It was God's will" is a very bewildering concept. If you are a believer in a god how do you know it was god's will. If everything that happens is god's will then how can people that commit crime be blamed - it was god's will.

Other thing - 700 plus killed is suddenly a big fuss. Ten times that in air pollution related deaths in London every year.
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It's the in the one go bit that's newsworthy.
 
dejongj said:
But they still all have the same God. Surely if you believe in God then you believe in his actions and will. I mean if you pick and choose and fit it to the situation then what is the point?
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Oh there's plenty of christians who pick and choose what choice parts of the testaments they wish to mould to serve their own particular 'beliefs'!
 
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