Had my first anti-photographers 'run-in'....

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specialman

specialman

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Pat MacInnes
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Had my first 'run-in' the other day at the CLA game fair at Blenheim with someone who's 'P**** radar' went wrong...

I work for the official press partner to the event, so my job on the day was to get general shots we could use for promoting next year's event, images that were specific to the magazines we produce (shooting and fishing) plus general stuff of people browsing, people enjoying themselves, and crowd shots.

Anyway, with the opportunity for people to have a free go at fishing on the river the kids were obviously going to be in their droves to catch a fish - good for me I'm thinking, because angling needs to push junior participation and with the likes of Bob Nudd on hand, plus the Angling Development Board (ADB) providing tackle to use, I could get great family-oriented shots that can hopefully help the sport grow.

I was taking shots of the kids being tutored by the ADB guys (and doing some 'arty' shots of them in the foreground and Nuddy in the background) when one of the ADB guys knelt next to me:

ADB guy: "I can't allow you to take pictures of the children".

Me: "Why?"

Him: "Because I can't."

Me: "Why? Is it against the law?.

Him: "I just can't. You need written consent from the children's parents."

Me: "Do I?"

Him: "Yes you do. Anyway, we're all police checked but you're not and I just can't let you take photographs."

Now, at this point I'm speechless, expecting him to ask me to delete the images, to which I'd refuse naturally. It's blazing hot, I'm feeling pooped from trekking round with a full complement of photo gear, plus I'm surrounded by people taking photos of the kids on their compacts who are doing so freely....

Me: "I think you've made a mistake - my job today is to take photographs with my press accreditation from the CLA organisers.

Him: "And I'm just doing my job. You can't take photos of the kids."

Me: "And I'm just doing my job and I'm employed to take photographs with permission from the organisers. I've taken photos of the kids opposite who are with Bob Nudd and I've taken photographs around the site of kids enjoying the show. That's my job today."

Him: "Well, you're taking photographs of the kid's backs." (at this point I'm behind them)

Me: "Yes I am but I'm also taking photographs of Bob Nudd opposite."

Him: "You can't take photographs."

Now I'm really, really annoyed because I'm getting flustered that someone is preventing my from doing my job because they think I have a 70-200mm, D2x and a flash so I'm a raging P****.

Me: "I appreciate that you are looking out for the kids, but there is nothing to worry about - I am here in an official capacity and it is NOT against any law or any rule to take a photograph from where I am shooting."

Him: "I'm just doing my job. I know it sounds preposterous but that's the way it is."

Me: "Who says it's that way?"

Him: "Err, it just is. I don't make the rule and to be honest, i think it's a load of rubbish but you have to be careful these days."

Me: "Careful of what?"

Him: pause.... "It's just one of those things we have to watch for."

Me: shaking my head... "So you're stopping me doing my job?"

Him: "Err, no - you just can't take photos of the kids."

Me: "You're wrong and you are stopping me from doing my job but I can see we're getting nowhere with this." (rattle a few shots off of a kid catching a big bream as I'm saying this)

Me: "Here's my card, proving who I am - I'll just go and shoot photos from the bridge then to get the kid's faces.

(meanwhile a little kid is beaming because he's had a massive fish but there's no-one to take his photo)

Him: "Err, I think his parents are around so I'll check with them." (they're sat about three feet away)

Me: "Well, I'm sure they won't have a problem - while you're there, give them my card."

(he goes off, talks to the parents and they stand up and smile their heads off at the opportunity of having a photo of their kid)

Me (to parents): "Are you okay with this?"

Parents: Of course Pat - we'd love to get a copy."

Me: "Of course. Just send me an e-mail and I'll organise that."

ADB guy: "That's great. Sorry about all that, you just have to be careful these days."

Me: "I'm sure you do. Thank you. I know you need to be careful when you're in charge of the kids but don't be so quick to judge people who are just doing their jobs"...

It was at this point where I'd totally forgotten everything I should have said to do with photographers rights and to be honest, I was annoyed at how easy it is to have people assume you're up to no good just because you have a big camera. Thankfully, I kept my cool because I didn't want a scene for the sake of professionalism and the reputation of my employers, but I can see why some people can get so riled it ends up getting nasty (towards the challenger), although it can't be condoned one bit.

One of the main things that wound me up though was the fact this guy (and his co-workers) are there to help regular kids in a society that often doesn't do much to make it easy for them. The game fair is an event where like-minded people support the trades and hobbies they live for, but it's quite easy for people's predjudices to eat into their professionalism and lay a foundation of mis-trust of everything.

This probably ranks as one of the lamest and least dramatic coming-togethers reported on TP, but nonetheless it's had me thinking hard over the past few days as to A) why people instantly get their hackles up towards photographers where kids are concerned, and B) just how easily it could have gotten out of hand if I'd have dug my heels in and let rip (despite me not quite being sure of laws etc).

I know I'll have events like this in future (one on August bank holiday in Evesham to be exact) and there will be no problem whatsoever, but it's got me on guard for something potentially bigger and more dramatic from someone who's not as 'normal' (for want of a better word) as the guy who challenged me.

Oh well, back to the daily grind of working with adults, but I thought I'd share that with you :)
 
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sounds like your typical, think he knows best idiot.

In future events could you not have either a written letter from the organisers or be in radio contact with them so they can basically tell them to eff off :)
 
I'd have been tempted to tell the guy to call the police and see how far he got! Jumped up arse. I mean kid fishing porn?? Is he demented?!

Did you ask whether he was CRB checked and to offer proof of it too?? Can't be too careful ;-)
 
Sadly this is the way it's going. I applaud you, had it been me I think he would have ended up in the drink. But saying that I have a situation of my own which needs thinking about. I take my dog for a walk most mornings through a park and along the river which borders the park. I have noticed a large grey heron sitting on the opposit bank which I would love to get a shot of, the only problem for me is to get to the riverside I have to walk past the childrens play area. Now only wanting to take a camera and 70-200mm lens to get the shot of the heron, am I leaving myself open to being challenged by some over protective parent. A couple of years ago when I was working as a press photographer I wouldn't have battered an eyelid, but it just make me wonder now !!!.:shrug:
 
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These people are the worst, parents don't care and are happy to have someone there to capture their kids enjoying themselves. I was asked to shoot a kids game by a parent so I asked them to contact the coach and get him to ok it with the opponents well eventually I had to call the coach and he said I needed to be CRB checked, he is the child welfare officer for the league so knows all about the CRB process and I need one.

Well my Dad is also the same position at a local primary school as a governor and said I didn't due to no contact or ability to build up any sort of relationship with a minor or person at risk. I even phoned the people at the league and they also confirmed I didn't need a CRB I got it emailed over and forwarded it but he insisted I did.

Well the same parent has asked me again to shoot a game in the new season so we will see how it goes this time.
 
Harvey_nikon said:
sounds like your typical, think he knows best idiot.

In future events could you not have either a written letter from the organisers or be in radio contact with them so they can basically tell them to eff off :)
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This should have been sorted out with the organisers right from the start, and they in-turn should have informed the likes of this chap that there were accredited photographers on site.
 
While i applaud your patience with dealing with the guy who tried to stop you doing your job the way you did i can't help but feel that your anger should largely be directed at the events organisers. I've worked events security quite a lot in my late teens to mid twenties and if i was working security at an event with official photographers present and roaming the site but i had no way of easily identifying them from the general public i wouldn't have been happy about it at all.

This could have easily been avoided with issuing you an "official photographer" t-shirt or pass on a lanyard that can be printed for £5 or less.
 
Little John, you do NOT need to be CRB checked as a casual visitor! Otherwise every parent watching the game supporting would have to be checked too.

Specialman - the ADB have CRB checked their people because as wualified leel 2 coaches we have to be...but a photograher there for a day does not have to be and there is nothing to stop public photography on the entrance ticket.

I was supposed to be on the TSF stand with Barney, with my fishing kayaks, but I was in Alaska, on an expedition to kite surf across the Bering Straight. Got back today. Next year for certasin - i am at the North Wales Boat Show ths weekend though, both doing a report on it and with the kayaks doing demos etc.

If anyone gets this kind of reaction again, you simply say to the person that he/she is not permitting you to take pictures, the show organisers are. It is not in his durisdiction to say who can or cannot take photographs. I admire your stoicism in remaining cool. I am not quite so level headed, even after all these years. I tend to get a bit more forceful, verbally and stand my ground - working for Streetfighters I get a lot more confrontation than with fishing issues! People tend to take exception to burnouts and wheelies and loud exhaust pipes, even though they save lives!:lol:
 
I have just had a similar issue shooting my son's football match (U13).

I have been involved with the football club since my son was 5, and have managed the team from U8, standing down last year as my son had started playing for a different side to the one I managed. I have my FA Level 1 (for whats its worth, but thats a different story) and am CRB checked.

At an away friendly I wanted to take a few pics so I approached the opposition manager's/coaches and they said no problem, and they quickly told the parents, again no problem.

I took my camera out and was just about to start shooting and an angry small man came over and the following exchange took place.

Small Man - What the hell do you think your doing
Me - Taking a couple of photo's
S.M - Put your camera away
Me - Why?
S.M - Because I Said so
Me - Can I ask who you are
S.M - No, who are you
Me - I am a parent of one of the children, I have checked with both teams managers and parents and I have permission.
S.M - I am involved with XX Football Club, and it is illegal to photograph kids
Me - Really, thats news to me, at the last FA Child Protection workshop I went to providing that I have permission from coaches and parents, and I am happy to disclose the pictures I take if asked, then the FA have no issues.
S.M - It's illegal, put your camera away.
Me - OK, I will, but your wrong, and I suggest if you are an official of the footbal club, you speak to your welfare officer, or contact the County FA to discuss.

The man was an idiot, but not wanting a confrontation, and also wanting to get rid of him so I could watch the game I agreed.
 
That would have got my heckles up, and I would have dug my heels in for an argument... Twerps like that cause problems! And by putting your camera away he probably saw it as a win for him...

Sam
 
sam_cat said:
That would have got my heckles up, and I would have dug my heels in for an argument... Twerps like that cause problems! And by putting your camera away he probably saw it as a win for him...

Sam
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It did feel like I had lost, but it was a really rough area anyway, and this bloke just looked the type who would kick off I just thought it was easiest all round.
 
Lensflare said:
Little John, you do NOT need to be CRB checked as a casual visitor! Otherwise every parent watching the game supporting would have to be checked too....
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That's what I was thinking tbh. The direct.gov site states:

Why criminal record checks are needed

When you apply for certain types of job you may be asked to apply for a criminal record check. These are generally jobs that mean you:

will be working regularly with children or vulnerable people
will be working in an establishment that is wholly or mainly for children
will be working in healthcare
have applied to be a foster carer, adoptive parent or childminder
will be working in certain other professions (details of all these professions are provided on the link below)
If you do need a criminal record check, your prospective employer will let you know and tell you what to do next.
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Which might be worth remembering if a situation like this arises again

EDT: Wouldn't there be something about photograph's being taken and permission to use them for publicity be a condition under the T&C's of entry?
 
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ste1010 said:
It did feel like I had lost, but it was a really rough area anyway, and this bloke just looked the type who would kick off I just thought it was easiest all round.
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Fair enough, no point in getting into a scuffle/shouting match unless you have to.
I probably would have kept on shooting, and told him to call the police if he thought it was a problem as you have permission from all the people you need it from.

Sam
 
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Again I applaud you for keeping your cool. Had it been me he would have been turned around and given a sharp kick up his rear end. I remember roughly when all this started, it was around 2006. We used to do a first day's in school supplement in the paper I worked for where we would get a group shot of the kids who had just started school, we would also get a couple of candid shots, a nice one for the front page and a few inside to break up the groups. Every year prier to 2006, we could use the childs name for the candids but when we did the shoot in 2006 we were not allowed to use names.

When my editor enquired with the local education authority as to why we could no longer use names she was told that a parent had sued a local education authority in London, for allowing her son to be photographed without her permission and had been awarded £54,000. Since then it seems to have gone all to pot.
 
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To be CRB checked is a load of rubbish, and an absolute waste of time. Why? simple, a foreigner may have committed dreadful crimes in an obscure country never prosecuted yet can work over here with children. There would be absolutely no way any checks could be done. On top of that a person can change their name by deed poll and a CRB check would come up clean against that name. Its a case of over panic and bad press that has driven this country into what it is today.
As an employer I can't have a CRB check done by myself either by the way.

Its like that guy in Norway, never killed before, so he was an ordinary person up until he committed that dreadful act. No check would have picked him out as a murderer.

Realspeed
 
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Pat, I've respected your great work since I first came across it, it's a shame what you experienced this weekend but you handled it perfectly IMO I'm not sure I would have been quite so restrained :bat:

This kind of experience is why I have stuck to senior rugby teams even though some of those teams have requested I attend the junior matches :bang:

Matt
MWHCVT
 
I had a run in with a pompous idiot the other weekend. It was half past six in the morning and I was at my local beach when Mr Pompous appears and demands "What's going on here then?"

Me: Sorry, what do you mean?
Him: That's a camera!"
Me: Yes it is.
Him: So what are you doing with it?
Me: Taking photographs.
Him: Oh are you! Well, I'll have to check.
Me: Check what?
Him: The photographs. There's a school near here.
Me: It's half past six on a Sunday morning.
Him: I don't care. I need to check to see what you are up to.
Me: Okay, but can I see some identification officer.
Him: What do you mean?
Me: I assume as you want me to hand over my property you are a police officer.
Him: er.. No of course I'm not.
Me: Well in that case **** off.
He then threated to call the police so I took out my phone and said that's exactly what I was doing. Before I pressed the first button he stormed off after muttering something about "don't let it happen again!"

I'm a regular at that beach but it's the first time I've met him - hope it's not the last :)
 
Just remember folks as soon as they touch you "It's assault" even if they attempt to grab your camera "It's attempted robbery"
 
Grayo said:
Just remember folks as soon as they touch you "It's assault" even if they attempt to grab your camera "It's attempted robbery"
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I had to explain that a few years ago to a security guard who wanted to "confiscate" my camera in case I took any photographs in a shopping centre (despite the fact the camera was in a bag and I was pushing a wheelchair).

Never had any bother with the police though. I've only been approached twice and on both occassions it was to ask me advice about photography.
 
i feel left out, i havent had a single person complain at me.

i really thought we were going to have our first one on saturday when we were shooting a couple and their two horses on a public grassy area when a lady with dog came marching over shouting "excuse me..." only to ask "is this your dog?"

:shrug:
 
I had it once when taking pics of my sons football team. I always ask for permission before the game starts and, the other teams manager said I don't think you can take pics but he checked with his parents who all said okay. Cheeky sod then asked for copies !
 
crb, crb, crb blah blah blah thats all we blooming hear about these days and in truth they aint worth the paper they are written on and in any case unless you are in sole charge of looking after kids then you dont need one.

I had the same attitude from a coach of a boys football team, he insisted that I have a CRB and even admitted to taking cameras off photographers in the past.

Boy it winds me up!!!
 
redmonkee said:
crb, crb, crb blah blah blah thats all we blooming hear about these days and in truth they aint worth the paper they are written on and in any case unless you are in sole charge of looking after kids then you dont need one.

I had the same attitude from a coach of a boys football team, he insisted that I have a CRB and even admitted to taking cameras off photographers in the past.

Boy it winds me up!!!
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Too bl***y true!
 
gm43uk said:
I had a run in with a pompous idiot the other weekend. It was half past six in the morning and I was at my local beach when Mr Pompous appears and demands "What's going on here then?"

Me: Sorry, what do you mean?
Him: That's a camera!"
Me: Yes it is.
Him: So what are you doing with it?
Me: Taking photographs.
Him: Oh are you! Well, I'll have to check.
Me: Check what?
Him: The photographs. There's a school near here.
Me: It's half past six on a Sunday morning.
Him: I don't care. I need to check to see what you are up to.
Me: Okay, but can I see some identification officer.
Him: What do you mean?
Me: I assume as you want me to hand over my property you are a police officer.
Him: er.. No of course I'm not.
Me: Well in that case **** off.
He then threated to call the police so I took out my phone and said that's exactly what I was doing. Before I pressed the first button he stormed off after muttering something about "don't let it happen again!"

I'm a regular at that beach but it's the first time I've met him - hope it's not the last :)
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I dont condone this, it is not the answer:

Kill him, strip him naked, fold his clothes nice and neat on the beach. Drag his cold dead body into the sea.

Happens all the time :D

Then go about your day sir :lol:

Job done
 
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gm43uk said:
I had a run in with a pompous idiot the other weekend. It was half past six in the morning and I was at my local beach when Mr Pompous appears and demands "What's going on here then?"

Me: Sorry, what do you mean?
Him: That's a camera!"
Me: Yes it is.
Him: So what are you doing with it?
Me: Taking photographs.
Him: Oh are you! Well, I'll have to check.
Me: Check what?
Him: The photographs. There's a school near here.
Me: It's half past six on a Sunday morning.
Him: I don't care. I need to check to see what you are up to.
Me: Okay, but can I see some identification officer.
Him: What do you mean?
Me: I assume as you want me to hand over my property you are a police officer.
Him: er.. No of course I'm not.
Me: Well in that case **** off.
He then threated to call the police so I took out my phone and said that's exactly what I was doing. Before I pressed the first button he stormed off after muttering something about "don't let it happen again!"

I'm a regular at that beach but it's the first time I've met him - hope it's not the last :)
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He was trying to rob you.

Hope this helps. ;)
 
gm43uk said:
I had a run in with a pompous idiot the other weekend. It was half past six in the morning and I was at my local beach when Mr Pompous appears and demands "What's going on here then?"

Me: Sorry, what do you mean?
Him: That's a camera!"
Me: Yes it is.
Him: So what are you doing with it?
Me: Taking photographs.
Him: Oh are you! Well, I'll have to check.
Me: Check what?
Him: The photographs. There's a school near here.
Me: It's half past six on a Sunday morning.
Him: I don't care. I need to check to see what you are up to.
Me: Okay, but can I see some identification officer.
Him: What do you mean?
Me: I assume as you want me to hand over my property you are a police officer.
Him: er.. No of course I'm not.
Me: Well in that case **** off.
He then threated to call the police so I took out my phone and said that's exactly what I was doing. Before I pressed the first button he stormed off after muttering something about "don't let it happen again!"

I'm a regular at that beach but it's the first time I've met him - hope it's not the last :)
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:thumbs: well said that man!
 
Those of you that are, need to stop worrying about CRB checks, its a red herring.
As with all types of photography, if its in a public place (and not subject to bye laws, conditions of entry or OSA's), you can photograph what you like. CRB check or not.

Photographing kids is an emotive subject, and has been since the 80's when Amateur Photography was ranting about it, mostly on the basis of somewhat incorrect evidence (one of their rants involved me, and it wasn't as reported, then again, why let the truth get in the way of a good moan!).

While you have every right, in that there's nothing in law to prevent you, a parent or responsible person has just as much right to question what your doing it for. But when it comes down to them not being happy about it, then they have no powers to prevent you. The only recourse is to call the Police.

If however you are on private property, then the owner can invent any rules he wants, even if its not in the terms and conditions of entry. In that case, its a case of oh well, you get days like that.

I'm afraid you have to look at the cause of the problem, which is the over active imagination of the press, who'd have you believe there's a pedophile behind every tree. The truth is its no more prevalent now that 30 years ago. Thats perhaps where you need to aim your anger.

And before the usual suspects start their ranting, yep, happened to me a couple of years ago in Bournemouth.

Pier attendant asked me what I was taking photos of
Me. Why?
PA. Its against the law
Me. really, what law's that then?
PA. I don't know it was passed last year though.
Me. In which case you'd better tootle off and call the Police then.
At which point I snapped him smiled and carried on doing what I was doing, and he went away never to be heard of again.
 
AdamK said:
He was trying to rob you.

Hope this helps. ;)
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Don't think that was his plan. He was in his 60s, smartly dressed and had a walking stick. He was more of the pompous busybody type - a sort of Captain Mainwaring in civvies :)
 
OP do you get paid set amount or per shot?

If you got paid a set amount I wouldn't have wasted me breath on the donkey.
Sent your shots off to whoever if they asked where's the photos of the kids fishing then explain 'Numpty Nuts' stopped me taking them.

Sometimes sad individuals like that aint worth wasting your breath on.
 
ste1010 said:
Small Man - What the hell do you think your doing
Me - Taking a couple of photo's
S.M - Put your camera away
Me - Why?
S.M - Because I Said so
Me - Can I ask who you are
S.M - No, who are you
Me - I am a parent of one of the children, I have checked with both teams managers and parents and I have permission.
S.M - I am involved with XX Football Club, and it is illegal to photograph kids
Me - Really, thats news to me, at the last FA Child Protection workshop I went to providing that I have permission from coaches and parents, and I am happy to disclose the pictures I take if asked, then the FA have no issues.
S.M - It's illegal, put your camera away.
Me - OK, I will, but your wrong, and I suggest if you are an official of the footbal club, you speak to your welfare officer, or contact the County FA to discuss.

The man was an idiot, but not wanting a confrontation, and also wanting to get rid of him so I could watch the game I agreed.
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Because I said so...my reply to this would not get past the swear filter!

It's illegal, put your camera away.....Are you threatening me? You are a ****. **** off.

That is the kind of reaction he would have got from me, if I was being restrained.:gag:
 
gm43uk said:
I had a run in with a pompous idiot the other weekend. It was half past six in the morning and I was at my local beach when Mr Pompous appears and demands "What's going on here then?"

Me: Sorry, what do you mean?
Him: That's a camera!
Me: Yes it is.
Him: So what are you doing with it?
Me: Taking photographs.
Him: Oh are you! Well, I'll have to check.
Me: Check what?
Him: The photographs. There's a school near here.
Me: It's half past six on a Sunday morning.
Him: I don't care. I need to check to see what you are up to.
Me: Okay, but can I see some identification officer.
Him: What do you mean?
Me: I assume as you want me to hand over my property you are a police officer.
Him: er.. No of course I'm not.
Me: Well in that case **** off.
He then threated to call the police so I took out my phone and said that's exactly what I was doing. Before I pressed the first button he stormed off after muttering something about "don't let it happen again!"

I'm a regular at that beach but it's the first time I've met him - hope it's not the last :)
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That's a camera..........the depth of your knowledge astounds me! Not many people would have known that.
 
Lensflare said:
Because I said so...my reply to this would not get past the swear filter!

It's illegal, put your camera away.....Are you threatening me? You are a ****. **** off.

That is the kind of reaction he would have got from me, if I was being restrained.:gag:
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If there wasn't so many kids present, I would have started telling him what I thought, but as I said before, there's a time and a place. Afterwards i was actually quite impressed I had managed to keep my cool, its not something I am reknowned for:eek:
 
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