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This exactly. Tone of voice/level of aggression is usually a give away.
had my collar felt for the first time by a security gaurd today (happy ending)
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This exactly. Tone of voice/level of aggression is usually a give away.
DemiLion
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boliston said:
Why not? My house doesn't actually have any curtains at all, apart from one net curtain in the bathroom that doesn't work at night anyway.
The village is perfectly welcome to stare at my hairy arse for as long as they wish.
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gramps
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With respect I think you are wrong ... if he is employed to look after the security of the building he is fulfilling his responsibility to his employer in questioning any activity involving that building.
He has no power to demand an answer or detain anyone but he certainly has as much right to ask as the photographer has to take the photo.
I cannot understand why any photographer would get so upset and increase the stakes over such a small issue - it's actually an opportunity to make a friend rather than an enemy!
I'm in the school of thought, that if you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about.
Only the dishonest have their right to privacy then?
It's just made the security guard believe he has a power he doesn't. You've hindered, not helped the next person along.
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It's my belief that you are completely wrong but such is life, I've had dealings with hundreds of police officers, security guards and other interested parties and almost universal I've found that if you treat them with respect they treat you with respect, It's also my belief that confrontational photographer to far more damage to the reputation of all photographers than the photographer that rationally discusses there actions when quizzed out there activities...
A little no photography related one for you, only yesterday I was visiting my dad in hospital after he was blue lighted in with a suspected stroke (thankfully it wasn't though I think it took a year or two off my life) and having been in there for a few hours do you think I could find my little parking ticket to pay for my parking would have been about £6 well no of course I couldn't so I went to the security office ready to pay the full day price for a new ticket to get out, rather than being moody and stroppy about the extra cost my parking was going to cost me I was pleasent and chatty with the securty guard and you know what he said don't worry about it and printed me a new ticket timed at right then which mean I didn't have to pay a penny as it looked like I'd been there about 5 minutes, and he didn't charge me the £10 fine, now it's only a little thing but it show that rather than going in guns a blazing being reasonable gets you somewhere in life
A photography related one, I went to photograph and film a explosive blow down last year, I got there nice and early to get a good spot, and got chatting to the security, they gave me the details so that the next time they do one local I can contact them in advance and they'll let me in to the press area for a better angle, and on this occasion they let me set my remote camera up inside the barrier so as to not have the tripod knocked, they didn't have to do that but they did because I was nice and chatty to them, a photographer that came along later and tried to BS there way in got told to clear off
so it again shows be decent to people and it will get you placesYou showing them and telling them everything you're doing is making it harder for the next person who chooses not to. You've given the inch and they are taking a mile. Next time you're challenged don't tell them and don't show them any pictures, if they accept that and go back to their duties then we have some progress. If not, well you've made the rod for your own back.
Bassit
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As much of a non event as the OP, why would you get moody and stroppy with the hospital security because you had lost your parking ticket :shrug:
Glad to hear your dad was ok though
EDIT: Why not with answer with something along the lines of:
Just to make you aware i don't actually have to answer your questions or show you what i have just photographed but seeing as you asked nicely i am happy to explain why i am here doing what i am doing..
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pooley
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Laudrup, you really need to get back to planet earth - or stop trolling, one of the 2.
Where the hell do you get your theory from that the security guard, now given an inch will take a mile?
Try learning from the OP - you might actually have a more pleasant life, albeit you wouldn't be able to post so many conspiracy theories.
Where the hell do you get your theory from that the security guard, now given an inch will take a mile?
Try learning from the OP - you might actually have a more pleasant life, albeit you wouldn't be able to post so many conspiracy theories.
You can sing like a canary if you like to anyone with a hi-vis jacket and a lanyard, your choice. I'll retain my right not to. As for giving them an inch and taking a mile, it's pretty self explanatory.
I've got enough friends. Telling a guard or whomever 'no' is perfectly reasonable.
VirtualAdept
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What utter tosh.
We hardly go around like the school bully, pushing someone and, if we get away with it, pushing the next person harder.
Steve
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Out of interest how far would people go to co-operate with the police if they stopped you when you were photographing. They explain there have been complaints and issues with photographers in the area and some criminal activity. They are sure you are not one of them, but they are sure you will understand that they need to investigate things, and after all if you are innocent you have nothing to hide:
1.They ask what you are doing. Do you reply or say you don’t have to explain yourself?
2.They ask to see the photographs you have taken on your camera screen (yes I know some use film, but just pretend). Do you show them?
3.They ask for your name and address. Do you give it?
4.They ask is it okay to search your camera bag. Do you agree?
5.They ask to look at the pictures on your other memory cards in your bag. Do you let them?
6.They ask if you mind accompanying them to the local police station...shouldn’t take too long. Do you go?
7.They ask at the station do you mind if they take your photo and fingerprints...just to eliminate you from enquiries. Do you agree?
8.They ask if they can take a DNA sample...again for elimination purposes. Do you agree?
9.They say they need to check for hidden memory cards, so would you mind allowing a cavity search? Do you agree?
Basically, how far do you take the ‘sensible’ option of co-operating before you insist on asserting yours rights and refuse to comply with their request?
1.They ask what you are doing. Do you reply or say you don’t have to explain yourself?
2.They ask to see the photographs you have taken on your camera screen (yes I know some use film, but just pretend). Do you show them?
3.They ask for your name and address. Do you give it?
4.They ask is it okay to search your camera bag. Do you agree?
5.They ask to look at the pictures on your other memory cards in your bag. Do you let them?
6.They ask if you mind accompanying them to the local police station...shouldn’t take too long. Do you go?
7.They ask at the station do you mind if they take your photo and fingerprints...just to eliminate you from enquiries. Do you agree?
8.They ask if they can take a DNA sample...again for elimination purposes. Do you agree?
9.They say they need to check for hidden memory cards, so would you mind allowing a cavity search? Do you agree?
Basically, how far do you take the ‘sensible’ option of co-operating before you insist on asserting yours rights and refuse to comply with their request?
Personally, I would comply on the street up to and including #3 above. Thereafter, they'd have to arrest me for something and then it would be 'no comment' to all questioning until I got to speak to the duty solicitor.
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Because if you give them carte blanche they'll expect me and everyone else to be as accommodating and view with suspicion if we're not. You can see a multitude of stories and videos all over the web, usually following the same depressing pattern.
gramps
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Okay, remembering that this is the police and not a security guard my personal stance would be to go as far as #4 because I have nothing to hide and as a public-spirited individual I realise that we all have a responsibility to help the police to combat crime.
I would hate to think that the police missed an opportunity to catch someone in possession of my stolen goods or in the process of breaking into my property etc.
#5 to me would be an unnecessary inconvenience and I think that unless they could provide a very good reason I would politely say that I had been reasonable and helpful but I see no need for them to require this and I would decline.
The rest would be non-starters for me unless under arrest.
OP
Rob 80386
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If it were the police on the street, then possibly up to number 3 on the list,
However, it all depends on your first response to being questioned, if your opening line is "I know my rights and I don't have to say anything", then it could quickly escalate to the point where one may be detained.
But if you explain why you are photographing a particular subject from the beginning, the situation may not even pass point 1 on that list, then you can walk away knowing you delt with it logically and got the shot you want.
There's little point getting into an argument needlessly and ruining the day, made worse by not getting the shot you want.
The security guard in question was only doing his job, IMHO he did it well.
FTR, I'm an elevator enthusiast, so I've photographed and filmed many plant rooms and elevator installations including a few specials that are rare and hard to find, this is the first time such an issue has arisen, with all that's happening in the world these days, my elevator hobby is getting harder, not impossible, just harder, however potential problems can be reduced, if one just thinks before one speaks, respect is a two way thing and manners cost nothing.
Unfortunately and unwittingly an accurate description when they are challenged. Did you ever see the Golden Wonder security guards in Scunthorpe?
gramps
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Yes - complete dinosaurs and not at all indicative of the majority of security staff.
Bit like photographers, there are a very small number of idiots who would rather make life difficult than enjoy it.
VirtualAdept
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Yes I did, and they were frankly a horrendous example of guards, but I daresay they were like that regardless, and didn't build up to it based on previous experience of pushing photographers about.
I'll also say that the photographer in that seemed to just want to make a scene.
The sheer majority of security workers aren't anything like that bad and respond rather well to being spoken to like human beings, rather than "I know my rights, you cant tell me..." etc etc.
Steve
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If it were the police on the street, then possibly up to number 3 on the list,
However, it all depends on your first response to being questioned, if your opening line is "I know my rights and I don't have to say anything", then it could quickly escalate to the point where one may be detained.
But if you explain why you are photographing a particular subject from the beginning, the situation may not even pass point 1 on that list, then you can walk away knowing you delt with it logically and got the shot you want.
There's little point getting into an argument needlessly and ruining the day, made worse by not getting the shot you want.
Perfectly put.
I've seen a few youtube clips where photographers asserting their rights have ended up being detained...think there was one of a Guardian photographer but could be wrong.
But by answering the first question, then in all likelihood it would have stopped there, as assertion of rights is likely to be interpreted as having something to hide.
So, sensibly it makes sense to fully co-operate to a level we find personally acceptable.
I'm not saying it's right....it's just the way it is.
Bassit
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But it also depends on the way that the questions are asked in the first place does it not? We all like to be treated with respect, if the person asking the questions doesn't show any respect to the person being questioned then does the questioner deserve to be treated in an equal manner?
London Headshots
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Everyone is always looking for a reason to assert their rights. If you just talk to someone like a human being, you'll get far. While it's not against the law to take a photograph, it's also not against the law to be asked questions.
London Headshots
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It depends on how petty and insecure you are. Meeting attitude with attitude never solves anything. Maintain dignity, stay polite, and take solace in the fact that your reasons for being in that exact spot are for personal pleasure, and theirs one of necessity.
Southdowns
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Common sense appears to degenerate as you go through this list! Up to point 4 I don't see much problem. They had grounds to be suspicious at least in a general sense if not of you specifically, and up to that point their requests seem reasonable in order to alleviate those suspicions.
But why would they ask for anything after point 4? The remaining points don't follow logically. Why would you end up being asked for a cavity search if all the previous investigations show no grounds for suspicion?
My reaction would be to cooperate up to point 4, which I'm pretty sure would avoid ANY of the subsequent requests, but if they did ask to see pictures on my other cards (point 5), I'd just ask why it was necessary given that I'd cooperated so far and they'd found nothing to be suspicious of. I'd tell them I thought their requests were now becoming intrusive, and that I'd rather exercise my right to refuse, thank you.
Strikes me that if they had reason to go beyond 4, that's the point at which they'd arrest me anyway.
If one has nothing to hide, then one has no reason to worry. You can still hold on to your privacy by asserting it when it matters (e.g. by closing your curtains, or by refusing to show your pictures if they include some nude ones, or whatever). This phrase does not mean give in to everything, it just means use a bit of common sense and don't up the anti by behaving as if you have something to hide when you don't. Help the police determine that you're not a problem, so they can get on with doing everything we all want them to.
Actually the curtain analogy is good. Don't act like a knob and draw your curtains all day, just to assert a right to privacy everyone knows you have, but equally don't leave them open all the time so everyone can see everything you do, just because "it's not illegal".
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VirtualAdept
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I wholeheartedly agree. If the questioner comes across as a mouthy oik, then he shouldn't be in the least bit surprised if he gets lip back, but if he's been polite/friendly, I dont see his uniform to be justification to be shirty with them.
Likewise, having a camera round your neck doesn't justify any less civility from the questioner in the first place.
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Steve
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Fair point....I kind of ran out of sensible options so just decided to ratchet it up to a ridiculous level.
Steve
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This is the difficult part for me... whereas personally I would probably co-operate to a high level, rights are there for a reason.
Why should I have to assert my rights? They are rights....they should be automatic and available without question. Why should asserting them cause suspicion and escalation?
Bassit
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gramps
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With 'rights' come 'responsibilities' ... all of us have a responsibility to work for the good of society, which includes policing, which incidentally helps to secure our rights ... to free speech, to live without fear of crime and violence etc.
pooley
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Laudrup - you continue to base your posts on 3rd party experience on the web. This is the same web where there are numerous examples of photographers baiting security guards to provoke a response which they can show the world.
Yours really is a complete non-arguement. Read and learn from the sensible responses on the thread.
Yours really is a complete non-arguement. Read and learn from the sensible responses on the thread.
London Headshots
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Somewhat ironic reply there don't you think.
Your reply doesn't really make any sense. I think you're trying to make an issue where there isn't one. THAT'S where the irony is.
Southdowns
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Because rights are not ends in themselves, they are there for a purpose, to be used when one needs them. Saying one will assert one's rights even when one has no need of their protection makes one look like someone who does.
(I don't normally talk like this BTW, just trying to steer clear of the pedants!)
You don't carry a hammer just because you can, you carry one when you need to bang nails in. Rights are tools to be used appropriately, just like hammers are.
Asserting rights when you have no need to is a good way to have them withdrawn. If the police are blocked at every turn by innocent people banging on about their right to not answer questions, the only way for society to function and deal with the wrongdoers is to remove that blockage by removing the rights. Rights used responsibly are far more likely to survive than rights used in order to be bloody minded.
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London Headshots
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I think it's more a case of automatically becoming difficult just because you have rights.
If a security guard/nobody comes up to me and says, "excuse me sir, do you mind if I ask what you're doing here", or perhaps some ruder equivalent, the best option is to simply answer their question. It's the best chance you have of getting them to go away quickly so you can get on with your job/passion.
You begin to assert your rights if you have to do so. Rights exercised early are threats. Rights exercised at the correct time are powers.
Bassit
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I asked a simple question about responding to the way someone asks a question, no attitude here..
To which you reply with "It depends on how petty and insecure you are.", and then go on to talk about meeting attitude with attitude. plenty of attitude there!!
If you don't see any irony in that then i am wasting my time with this reply
, as Steve pointed out we do have rights and they should be first and foremost, we shouldn't have to explain why we are using them..But if a modicum of respect is shown in the first place, then i would have no problem in answering a few simple questions, ALTHOUGH i don't actually need to, as some would have you believe.
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London Headshots
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You're wasting your time; I didn't even read that.
Bassit
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Like i said, it comes down to respect on both sides. :baby:
supersammy
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I can't believe that people have been arguing about this for three pages now :0.
It's simple, if someone is civil with you then humor them, and be polite back. If someone want's to make an issue and act obnoxiously either do the same or tell them to f-off. The very worst case scenario is that you are going to get a slap, and you can always give one back.
For the record here - I spend a lot of time at the moment on MOD property. I'd like to see some of the internet hero's on here telling a Warrant Officer their "rights" if they were rocking around happy snapping.
It's simple, if someone is civil with you then humor them, and be polite back. If someone want's to make an issue and act obnoxiously either do the same or tell them to f-off. The very worst case scenario is that you are going to get a slap, and you can always give one back.
For the record here - I spend a lot of time at the moment on MOD property. I'd like to see some of the internet hero's on here telling a Warrant Officer their "rights" if they were rocking around happy snapping.