Gunman Dies

London Headshots said:
Well, it generally is. Hence the term "pick on someone your own size". Unless you're saying that all criminals are brave?

As I understand the type of opportunist crime, most criminals of such nature will generally pick a very low-risk target. Jim probably knows more than me, but I think he'd confirm that.

I doubt, when scoping for someone to mug or attack, people will generally pick the guy who looks the way I do. I only say this because people I meet or know will generally make a comment at some point about how they wouldn't want to mess with me.

I'm not saying there aren't those who look for a challenge, but if you saw that guy walking home from the gym looking like that, you would probably just wait for the next person. Unless you were in a real rush or something..
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I think you will find your friends are saying that just to be nice to you.

As for the crim well if he's opportunity is there and he's desperate enough he will take it.
 
tiler65 said:
Can drug addiction bring on mental illness?
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"Illness" may not be the correct word, but it can create permanent mental deterioration.

Heroine, coccaine, LSD, cannabis, etc.. all cause the brain to work in a way it wasn't designed to. If you start using your camera in ways it wasn't designed to (as a mop, for example), then it's at risk of permanent damage.
 
London Headshots said:
Ah, actually Jim, you know what, I think it might not be a halfway house, I think it may be a hostel. Are they different?
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Well, the term half way house is a euphemism for a bail hostel, though as you pointed out, the traditional half way houses used to cater for alcoholics, people with mental illnesses and addicts of sorts as well but they don't exist as such anymore as they are generally given housing or other local authority care.

Bail hostels are purely for people released on bail with no fixed address, as a way of keeping tabs on them. Typically they are occupied by offenders on licence or those with a high risk of re offending.
 
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pepi1967 said:
I think you will find your friends are saying that just to be nice to you.

As for the crim well if he's opportunity is there and he's desperate enough he will take it.
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lol, yeah, I'm sure they are Scott. I'm sure they are.

These grapes are past their best.
 
Are we still arguing? Tomorrow could be so quiet...
 
odd jim said:
Well, the term half way house is a euphemism for a bail hostel, though as you pointed out, the traditional half way houses used to cater for alcoholics, people with mental illnesses and addicts of sorts but they don't exist as such anymore as they are generally given housing.

Bail hostels are purely for people released on bail with no fused address, as a way of keeping tabs on them.
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Thinking about my dad's situation, I'm just now wondering if I'm arguing the case for people who may not even be criminals. Which is worse, because it would mean I've judged them as such.
 
London Headshots said:
lol, yeah, I'm sure they are Scott. I'm sure they are.

These grapes are past their best.
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Well my friends say the same to me but I just laugh it off personally I'm not really that vain to take any notice but I know guys who are.
 
matty said:
Are we still arguing? Tomorrow could be so quiet...
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Nope, still discussing! I'm off to bed soon anyway...
 
London Headshots said:
Thinking about my dad's situation, I'm just now wondering if I'm arguing the case for people who may not even be criminals. Which is worse, because it would mean I've judged them as such.
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Possibly! We all judge one way another, or we'd be completely autonomous and emotionless.
 
London Headshots said:
Don't be ridiculous. Look at her boyfriend.
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Does he know about you and her? I'd be worried, he's a big lad. :thumbs:

In all seriousness though, you're not bulletproof, and to a desperate/nasty/psychotic guy with a gun, you're the one he's going to get rid of first.

I've never been held up at gunpoint, but I did once have a junkie decide he was going to pull a syringe out of his pocket and try and stick it in me. No demands for money or anything, he just ordered a drink, said "Look what I found earlier", and as I leaned forward to get a better look, lunged at me and tried to stick it in my arm.
I was barely out of my teens, about 9st wet through, and this guy was going nuts trying to get at me. Like others have mentioned, this gave me a very different outlook and made me skittish around people I didn't know for a while afterwards.
 
PMN said:
It's a really difficult situation. If indeed, as suggested, the guy had an imitation pistol then he clearly didn't intend to hurt anyone and was merely using scare tactics but the problem is no-one else was aware of that and they used whatever force they felt necessary to stop him. There are ways of restraining people that will stop them without the risk of killing them, but if you choose to try hold up a shop with a gun, imitation or otherwise, you have to be ready to take whatever gets thrown at you. If that means you die, so be it.

It's a genuine shame the guy died as we don't know the circumstances behind what happened (how desperate/mentally ill/messed up he was), it's a very unfortunate outcome either way. :(
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I understand what you are saying,BUT, he held the shop up with a firearm, doesn't matter that it was an imitation, it is still a firearm in this instance because of how it was used, it doesn't matter one bit to the victims in the shop that it was an imitation, the effect that it will have on them is exactly the same be it as reported an imitation or if it had been a real firearm.
 
I'm sorry he died. Thats not defending him in anyway, but the customers of that shop now have to live knowing, rightly or wrongly, they killed him.
 
boyfalldown said:
I'm sorry he died. Thats not defending him in anyway, but the customers of that shop now have to live knowing, rightly or wrongly, they killed him.
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Or they possibly stopped him killing more than one person............the argument can work both ways Hugh.
 
assuming of course that they did - to date we don't know the cause of death
 
tiler65 said:
Or they possibly stopped him killing more than one person............the argument can work both ways Hugh.
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I know - I did say rightly or wrongly. :thumbs: But just from a personal perspective, if I ever found myself having killed someone (regardless of justification etc) it would take a long time to get over........
 
boyfalldown said:
I know - I did say rightly or wrongly. :thumbs: But just from a personal perspective, if I ever found myself having killed someone (regardless of justification etc) it would take a long time to get over........
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I am sure it does.
 
There have been many instances of people dying of what is called Positional Asphyxia. as the name suggests it is caused when people are "held" in such a position that they cannot breath.
Some (note some not all) Police/Custody Officers, Prison Officers, Nurses etc receive training on how to restrain people to prevent this from happening.

I am not saying that is what happened here but it is a possibility
 
There you go, this article confirms what Odd Jim told us - he was a career criminal with a record for armed robbery.

According to the article, the people who tackled him haven't even been interviewed under caution, so it must be obvious to the police that they acted reasonably.

As my own son and his mother have been victims of an attack by a violent criminal, I find it difficult to have too much sympathy for the criminals when it goes wrong for them.
 
It's a game of chance, he took one and it fell the right way IMHO, there are far too many chancers with little regard for others.

Am I sorry for the loss, nope. And we need more people like those that held him down in society, not vigilantes but honest upstanding people with a thought and regard to others.

I think the bookies should give them a reward and the police should give them an award.

Phil.
 
Davec223 said:
I understand what you are saying,BUT, he held the shop up with a firearm, doesn't matter that it was an imitation, it is still a firearm in this instance because of how it was used, it doesn't matter one bit to the victims in the shop that it was an imitation, the effect that it will have on them is exactly the same be it as reported an imitation or if it had been a real firearm.
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Indeed, hence I said in the reply you've quoted that the people he was holding up weren't aware it was an imitation. It made no difference to them. ;)
 
I find it a bit worrying that so many people on the thread are pleased about the man's death. Of course he brought it on himself and must have known the risks. He was also obviously a very nasty piece of work. But his death is still a sad event. Who knows what what led him to that moment. We all have good and evil in us and none of us deserves to die a violent death.

I have huge respect for the guys who restrained him and hope they get a medal and don't suffer any post traumatic stress.
 
PatrickO said:
I find it a bit worrying that so many people on the thread are pleased about the man's death. Of course he brought it on himself and must have known the risks. He was also obviously a very nasty piece of work. But his death is still a sad event. Who knows what what led him to that moment. We all have good and evil in us and none of us deserves to die a violent death.

I have huge respect for the guys who restrained him and hope they get a medal and don't suffer any post traumatic stress.
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GREED and wanting something for nothing.
 
Everyone, at some point in their life, should experience a moment when they genuinely feel they are about to die.

Death - irreversible nothing. End of life, of feeling, of knowing. Nothing. Gone. No more.

Death happens, sometimes it's inevitable, such as war. Sometimes mistakes happen, as seems to be the case here. Sometimes in self defence, it may be necessary to kill to prevent your own death.

It is never, ever, something to celebrate, be pleased about or justified by petty arguments of justice.

It is to be regretted.

Some of the comments in this thread make me very sad and pessimistic about the human condition.
 
From my point of view, I have come from the dregs of social welfare upbringing, still have family down there. There is an inbred feeling of everything for nothing and the state feeds that. There is a way out that involves hard work and personal pride, not many choose that route.

The guy and many more like him have the same choice, the people in the shop do not. Its not about being heartless, unsympathetic or unhuman, like the comments before about the police being tainted, it affects you everyday and it becomes life. There are levels in society, people who have no desire to improve their own life have little sympathy from me.
 
not read the previous 105 comments, but if you go in, attempting to do an AR.. albeit with possible fake gun, then **** happens... oh well.. I'm not going to lose any sleep over his death........

His intentions were to terrorise / scare counter staff and make off with a bundle... he had no morals about affecting their lives, why should we care he died doing it?
 
simon ess said:
Everyone, at some point in their life, should experience a moment when they genuinely feel they are about to die.

Death - irreversible nothing. End of life, of feeling, of knowing. Nothing. Gone. No more.

Death happens, sometimes it's inevitable, such as war. Sometimes mistakes happen, as seems to be the case here. Sometimes in self defence, it may be necessary to kill to prevent your own death.

It is never, ever, something to celebrate, be pleased about or justified by petty arguments of justice.

It is to be regretted.

Some of the comments in this thread make me very sad and pessimistic about the human condition.
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Best post in this thread. It's nice to see that not everyone is a hardline armchair fundamentalist.
 
simon ess said:
Everyone, at some point in their life, should experience a moment when they genuinely feel they are about to die.

Death - irreversible nothing. End of life, of feeling, of knowing. Nothing. Gone. No more.

Death happens, sometimes it's inevitable, such as war. Sometimes mistakes happen, as seems to be the case here. Sometimes in self defence, it may be necessary to kill to prevent your own death.

It is never, ever, something to celebrate, be pleased about or justified by petty arguments of justice.

It is to be regretted.

Some of the comments in this thread make me very sad and pessimistic about the human condition.
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But the 'human condition' is not about being nice to each other.............. centuries of conflict/competition and this guys actions have proved that. We are not butterflies...we are human.
 
tiler65 said:
But the 'human condition' is not about being nice to each other.............. centuries of conflict/competition and this guys actions have proved that. We are not butterflies...we are human.
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Clearly we are human.

We are capable of choice. We are capable of choosing how we react to situations. We are capable of making moral and ethical choices. We are capable of regretting the death of another human being or celebrating it.

We are capable of making the decision to regard the killing of others as acceptable or regarding the killing of others as an absolute last resort.

We are capable of deciding policy on the basis of life, or on the basis of extermination.

We are capable of regretting the death of another human being, whatever the circumstances.

The circumstances may be inevitable, how you choose to react to that death is not.

That's the choice you have as a human.
 
simon ess said:
Clearly we are human.

We are capable of choice. We are capable of choosing how we react to situations. We are capable of making moral and ethical choices. We are capable of regretting the death of another human being or celebrating it.

We are capable of making the decision to regard the killing of others as acceptable or regarding the killing of others as an absolute last resort.

We are capable of deciding policy on the basis of life, or on the basis of extermination.

We are capable of regretting the death of another human being, whatever the circumstances.

The circumstances may be inevitable, how you choose to react to that death is not.

That's the choice you have as a human.
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Brilliant post. Beautifully written. Thank you.
 
simon ess said:
Clearly we are human.

We are capable of choice. We are capable of choosing how we react to situations. We are capable of making moral and ethical choices. We are capable of regretting the death of another human being or celebrating it.

We are capable of making the decision to regard the killing of others as acceptable or regarding the killing of others as an absolute last resort.

We are capable of deciding policy on the basis of life, or on the basis of extermination.

We are capable of regretting the death of another human being, whatever the circumstances.

The circumstances may be inevitable, how you choose to react to that death is not.

That's the choice you have as a human.
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So are you saying humans have to be compassionate about death?
 
Death comes to us all at some point. It's inevitable and is just a part of life.

Yes we have a choice on how to react when death happens.

But that choice includes feeling good and feeling bad or feeling nothing. Having the choice makes us human.

If we choose to feel good that a reprobate is no longer on the earth then that's our choice and we can have it.

If you want to feel sympathy about it that's your choice and I won't stop you for feeling it.

Don't expect me to lose any sleep over it though. I'm still glad another despicable human is no longer breathing the same air as me.
 
i'm worried to find that Joe and I agree
 
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