GRRRRRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!!!! (Rant warning)

ok he runs the U16's but to be honest I can go down and shoot them whenever I like really. All the shoots I do I do for free, as I am just wanting the practice at the moment. The least I ask is that any decent shots I manage to get must be paid for as prints.

I think this shot is worth £7 :thinking:
http://www.philcarverphotography.com/photo5098173.html

I think so too, and I can see why he wants a copy of it. I'd be inclined not to give a free copy in any size to be honest, unless you feel that would cause you difficultly in continuing to do what you're doing. There should be a 'nice' way of putting him in his place I would say.
 
What about giving him the photo in return for a signed model release form so that you can sell it elsewhere?
 
I like the idea of giving him a 6x4 with a large copyright sign plastered over the top of it.
 
All I can say is make sure you are not cutting your nose of to spite your face. He could easily say that he does not want you to photograph any more for any team he manages.

I agree it is a good pic, but blowing up over this will get you no where, get used to it, you will always get it. Maybe a discount or something, but seems pointless as you have emailed him back, just hope he does not take offence to it, as you could have lost the right to photograph the teams, and word of mouth means a lot. Cheap 7 by 5 costs virtually nothing, which could help out if you could be made club photographer etc.

Not every freebie leads to disadvantage.

Do you donate any of your profit to the club or anything? Not as black and white when you look at it as you make out.
 
If it was just a parent, i would tell him to do one.

But considering who he is, i think i would do it. But when you hand it over tell him it's a one off favour and should anyone ask could he please not divulge it was free.
 
All I can say is make sure you are not cutting your nose of to spite your face. He could easily say that he does not want you to photograph any more for any team he manages.

I agree it is a good pic, but blowing up over this will get you no where, get used to it, you will always get it. Maybe a discount or something, but seems pointless as you have emailed him back, just hope he does not take offence to it, as you could have lost the right to photograph the teams, and word of mouth means a lot. Cheap 7 by 5 costs virtually nothing, which could help out if you could be made club photographer etc.

Not every freebie leads to disadvantage.

Do you donate any of your profit to the club or anything? Not as black and white when you look at it as you make out.

I agree with this, but seeing as I have already provided a CD full of images for free, I feel this is enough in terms of freebies.
 
I think thats a great shot and he should definitely pay. He was aware of the cost of the image when he enquired, and to be honest I think you should put your prices up. Just because you are not a full-time photographer you shouldn't under-value your work. In future you should charge for ALL your images, that way there would be no confusion about whether someone might get a freebie or not.

If you are providing an image for advertising purposes on a website then make sure you are credited and that the image is not for re-distribution. I doubt very much that the manager will fall out with you over £7. If anything he may even respect you more as a photographer. Hope that helps!

I definitely believe that business is business, esspecially as there is so much competition around.
 
I think thats a great shot and he should definitely pay. He was aware of the cost of the image when he enquired, and to be honest I think you should put your prices up.

Cheers Carol, it's funny but these prices reflect a recent price hike, as they were even lower than this at the start of the week :lol:
 
Send him a cheery response in a similar joking tone, but don't budge on the price. I think he will pay, its a great photo. Don't take it personally.
 
Has this guy actually said what he wants this print for? Is it to give to the lad in the photo?

This would effect my decision as to whether to give it for free or not, although he does seem to be getting a lot for free already.
 
It does not matter who the print is for. It should be paid for.
 
What about giving him the photo in return for a signed model release form so that you can sell it elsewhere?

He doesn't need a signed model release to sell the image elsewhere. He can do what he likes with the image regardless of what the person in it, or any of their relatives think.

I don't understand why giving it to the man free is still an option for some people? For example.. how would being made club photographer benefit him more than he already is.. except being expected to do things for free? The only club photographers who get paid are the top of the pile club photographers for big Premier League clubs and the like...

Ding - a cheap 7 x 5 may cost nothing, but it is the content that is placed on it that is worth something.. I'm sorry but you just devalued every print ever made with that quote. A canvas and set of oils won't set you back much, but Van Goghs sell for millions ;)
 
Let him have it for free and charge 7 quid postage and packing

Happens all the time that the p and p is more than the piddly little item you buy
(sorry for the bonus rant)
 
I have stopped doing stuff for free on the promise of future work, it never comes.

Even in the email he likes it but doesn't want to pay for it at £7 for a 7x5 so is looking for a 6x4 and hoping to get a freeby. I would offer him the 6x4 at the same price as a 7x5 or £6.99 after all the difference in cost between a 7x5 and a 6x4 is tiny the main cost is the delivery. If you have made any sales from the rugby club then the parents will want you back to get more photos. when your there you need to publicise your website either a fluorescent bib with your site details on the back or be giving out business cards. Speak to the parents if they say can you get one of their kid make sure you get a few for them to choose from cover their kid for 5 minutes or something its a sale you will get.
 
I have stopped doing stuff for free on the promise of future work, it never comes.

Even in the email he likes it but doesn't want to pay for it at £7 for a 7x5 so is looking for a 6x4 and hoping to get a freeby. I would offer him the 6x4 at the same price as a 7x5 or £6.99 after all the difference in cost between a 7x5 and a 6x4 is tiny the main cost is the delivery. If you have made any sales from the rugby club then the parents will want you back to get more photos. when your there you need to publicise your website either a fluorescent bib with your site details on the back or be giving out business cards. Speak to the parents if they say can you get one of their kid make sure you get a few for them to choose from cover their kid for 5 minutes or something its a sale you will get.

Hi John

I've sold a few to parents to be honest, maybe not as many as I would have liked. Probably 10-11 customers totalling £150-£190 can't remember the exact amount.

I'm going to an all day event on Saturday, and will be wearing a club high viz bib. I'm also going to be handing my business cards out to anyone interested in seeing my work.

By the way I love the idea of a bib with my web address on, any idea where I can get one made up?
 
Or you could give him a copy in non-standard dimensions - would require bespoke frame, then tell him it's also available in standard dimensions for the usual price.
 
There you go - stick the picture on the back of a business card. He get's a free copy at 6cm x 4cm! In fact everyone gets one! Job done.
 
Why not suggest some type of offer like buy one get one free or suggest if a few of his team mates make a group purchase you knock 10/20% off for them as a one off?
 
Give him a low res 5x3 printed with your desktop printer on plain paper.
 
You don't really want to be offering discounts for multiple images unless they are all the same image it just creates a lot more work and them picking out 10 images to get the discount or what ever then you have 10 images to crop adjust and print it is far easier and quicker for you to edit 1 image and print 10 of them. takes 3 minutes. Doing 10 different images takes 20 minutes.

For the high vis a mate of mine used http://www.hivis.net/ and they were pretty good and inexpensive, if they provide you with a vest then get one in the same colour. Bib's are a lot more expensive the type of thing a golf caddy wears so I would go with a vest type thing. JJB sports sell a runners high vis bib for about £10. these guys are a little cheaper you would then need to get it printed
 
That's a fantastic shot, if it were my son I'd buy it at £70.

Stick to your guns. You have already given enough away for free.
 
He doesn't need a signed model release to sell the image elsewhere. He can do what he likes with the image regardless of what the person in it, or any of their relatives think.

Can you? Why does Alamy require a model release if there are people in the picture?
 
Because Alamy sell images to countries where model releases ARE required.
 
This is certainly very common at all the events we go to, people ask all the time for free prints. Recently someone want to take some of our samples for free, as they recognised someone in the photos from a previous event!

My take is always that I'll give event organisers some website sized JPGs for advertising in return for booking us to attend an event. These are generally photos that other people have ordered and that would be processed anyway.

I'd never give someone a free print just because they ask for it unless the circumstances were exceptional. It sets a precedent that is difficult to negotiate out of. It also give the impression that the print itself is easy and very cheap to produce, which may or may not be true, but that's what people assume if you give stuff away. All that does is further de-value photography in their eyes, which doesn't help future sales.

Unless you absolutely need this person for you continued business survival I'd send him a polite message along the lines of

"Although I can supply small electronic images for free, the costs associated with editing, preparing for print, printing, checking, packaging and posting a physical print mean that supplying paper products for free is not possible. A smaller size does not materially reduce these costs, and distributing free prints too all my event clients would reduce my profit to unsustainable levels."

I'd attach an electronic copy, the same size and quality as the ones you provide the club for we advertising, including any watermark if you mark the others.

That way you have done something for him, and if and when anyone asks why he only has the small low quality image he'll have to say because he didn't want to pay £7 for it...

Excellent shot by the way:thumbs:
 
Wanna talk about cheek. Some cheeky bitch actually handed me HER crappy little point n' shoot to take a picture of her with a celeb at a particular event I was shooting. I told her "sure, it'll cost you double".
 
No, she just laughed, thought I was kidding.
 
I have been reading this with some interest. I currently take photos for our local theatre group and have done for the last few seasons. I don't charge for my time, only the printing costs. All pics I post on flickr for each company to download etc. I was wondering the other night, am I being a fool not charging anything? On the negative side, I make no money from it. On the plus side, my pics are seen on a monthly basis by over 1000 people, they are printed in the theatre magazine with a monthly circulation of 600. Over the last three years I have secured five wedding bookings and six portrait sittings from members and audiences alike - purely from my prod pics.

I guess my point is this, if there is potential exposure in you offering a freebee or two then it may pay you dividends to do so.

Spooks
 
I have been reading this with some interest. I currently take photos for our local theatre group and have done for the last few seasons. I don't charge for my time, only the printing costs. All pics I post on flickr for each company to download etc. I was wondering the other night, am I being a fool not charging anything? On the negative side, I make no money from it. On the plus side, my pics are seen on a monthly basis by over 1000 people, they are printed in the theatre magazine with a monthly circulation of 600. Over the last three years I have secured five wedding bookings and six portrait sittings from members and audiences alike - purely from my prod pics.

I guess my point is this, if there is potential exposure in you offering a freebee or two then it may pay you dividends to do so.

Spooks

If you were pro.. would these five weddings and six portraits have earnt you enough to live for 3 years? I rest my case ;)

People would have still seen your pics, some may have even bought. It's a win win situation.
 
Your not a pro so don't need the money to survive, even if you were a pro the cost of your gear is irrelevant and someone sent you a chekky email looking for a freebie get over it. This is hardly a big deal I try the same trick with my neighbours kids everytime I catch them washing their old mans car, hasn't worked but it might one day!

I take it you don't know much about economics? Pro's spend many thousands on gear (even amatuers do that) and it's very relevalnt and more so to a pro who has to try and recover capital expenditure.

Start giving your images away free and it's downhill from there as it's expected and others hear about it!
 
He doesn't need a signed model release to sell the image elsewhere. He can do what he likes with the image regardless of what the person in it, or any of their relatives think.

That's not quite true. A little more complicated and not quite as black and white.
 
not quite - he can supply the image for editoral use but for any sort of advertisment/promotion he needs a model release.

He doesn't need a signed model release to sell the image elsewhere. He can do what he likes with the image regardless of what the person in it, or any of their relatives think.
 
Unless you absolutely need this person for you continued business survival I'd send him a polite message along the lines of

"Although I can supply small electronic images for free, the costs associated with editing, preparing for print, printing, checking, packaging and posting a physical print mean that supplying paper products for free is not possible. A smaller size does not materially reduce these costs, and distributing free prints too all my event clients would reduce my profit to unsustainable levels."

Excellant and if you don't mind I'll be using that.

I'm in a similar situation in that for the last 4 years I've been shooting junior rugby, providing shots to the club for publicity and some parents have been using my low res shots for facebook. I've sold a few prints, usually at cost plus a little for my time.

This year, as I'm officially now the publicity officer, the clubs welfare officer has decided I need to be CRB checked and that I'm not to take anymore shots in an official capacity until it's been completed. I won't get into the whole politics of it and their timescales, but basically I don't expect that to be back until christmas so I'm signing on at every match as an event photographer.

So this year I'll be charging, and make the point that some of the money will go back into our year groups funding.
 
not quite - he can supply the image for editoral use but for any sort of advertisment/promotion he needs a model release.

:thumbs:
 
not quite - he can supply the image for editoral use but for any sort of advertisment/promotion he needs a model release.

If the image is being licensed outside of the UK to a country where model releases are required, then yes.

They are not legally required in the UK.
 
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